What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

[Matthias]

Wrangler was arguing that the passage is not about Jesus at all.

What about Moffatt?

Have you read the trinitarian commentary on Isaiah 9:6 in NET?

Isaiah 9

 

[RLT63]

Totally delusional.

Please cite the verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.

Then, I'll concede.

When you find the one that says He who believes in the deity of Christ is damned to Hell forever I'll concede

 

[RLT63]

What about Moffatt?

Have you read the trinitarian commentary on Isaiah 9:6 in NET?

I provided commentary for Isaiah 9:6-7

 

[RLT63]

What about Moffatt?

Have you read the trinitarian commentary on Isaiah 9:6 in NET?

Isaiah 9

You didn't provide verse 7 from Moffatt

 

[Matthias]

I provided commentary for Isaiah 9:6-7

The link you provided didn’t take me to commentary. Was it the commentary in NET? Their commentary is balanced.

 

[Matthias]

You didn't provide verse 7 from Moffatt

That’s because I was focusing on el gibbor.

“Great is his authority, endless is his peace, over David’s throne and his dominion, to base it firm and stable on justice and good order, from henceforth and for ever - thanks to the jealous care of the Eternal.”

(Moffatt, Isaiah 9:7)

 

[RLT63]

Totally delusional.

Please cite the verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.

Then, I'll concede.

He doesn't believe in the Trinity. Try to keep up

 

[Matthias]

The point is that it doesn’t have to be. See, for example, the Septuagint.

Here is a link to an English translation of Isaiah 9:6 in the Septuagint.

Esaias 9

 

[RLT63]

The link you provided didn’t take me to commentary. Was it the commentary in NET? Their commentary is balanced.

It was way back in the conversation

 

[Wrangler]

When you find the one that says He who believes in the deity of Christ is damned to Hell forever I'll concede

What do you know about proof by contradiction and mutual exclusiveness? Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5

It does not say salvation is by believing Jesus is God but believing Jesus is the son of God. I believe that Jesus is not God but the Son of God as this verse says. Do you?

 

[RLT63]

Here is a link to an English translation of Isaiah 9:6 in the Septuagint.

Esaias 9

And verse 7 is clear; this is Jesus. Even in the Septuagint

 

[Matthias]

It was way back in the conversation

I’d have to go back and find it but there’s a very high probability that I’ve read it at some point in my life.

Have you read the NET commentary? It presents my position as well as yours to the reader.

 

[RLT63]

What do you know about proof by contradiction and mutual exclusiveness? Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5

It does not say salvation is by believing Jesus is God but believing Jesus is the son of God. I believe that Jesus is not God but the Son of God as this verse says. Do you?

Yes Jesus is the Son of God. That's clear. But they are not mutually exclusive

 

[RLT63]

I’d have to go back and find it but there’s a very high probability that I’ve read it at some point in my life.

Have you read the NET commentary? It presents my position as well as yours to the reader.

No I don't have the NET

 

[Matthias]

And verse 7 is clear; this is Jesus. Even in the Septuagint

I believe it is a messianic prophecy.

btw, “the Eternal” is Moffatt’s rendering of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) - Yahweh.

 

[Matthias]

No I don't have the NET

I provided a link to the NET in post #2641. You can read it by following the link, if you trust it and want to. I think the trinitarian commentary on the passage is excellent; better than most because it’s balanced.

 

[Wrangler]

Yes Jesus is the Son of God. That's clear.

Believing it is the key to salvation, along with one other thing. Romans 10:9 says believing God - in his unitarian nature - raised Jesus from the dead. Not "the Father" but God - in his unitarian nature - raised Jesus from the dead is the condition of salvation. Powerful stuff.
if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

If Jesus were God, Roman 10:9 would stick to Jesus - and claim he raised himself from the dead- but it doesn't because he is not God.

But they are not mutually exclusive

Yes, they are mutually exclusive! Why do you suppose Scripture says over and over again that Jesus is the Son of God but not once says he is God the Son? Not once does it say God the Holy Spirit.

Scripture says only God the Father over and over again. What Scripture says and doesn't say doesn't mean anything to your trinitarian ideology.

 

[RLT63]

That’s because I was focusing on el gibbor.

“Great is his authority, endless is his peace, over David’s throne and his dominion, to base it firm and stable on justice and good order, from henceforth and for ever - thanks to the jealous care of the Eternal.”

(Moffatt, Isaiah 9:7)

Clearly that is speaking of Jesus

 

[RLT63]

Well, back to trinitarian translations of Isaiah 9:6.

“For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us; the royal dignity he wears, and this the title that he bears - ‘A wonder of a counsellor, a divine hero, a father of all time, a peaceful prince!’”

(James Moffatt, The Bible A New Translation)

Dr. Moffatt, himself a trinitarian, knew full well that the passage he rendered as “a divine hero” is the Hebrew phrase el gibbor, and that it is used often in the Old Testament in regard to other men.

But in the Strongs reference you gave it is overwhelmingly translated as God

 

[RLT63]

Believing it is the key to salvation, along with one other thing. Romans 10:9 says believing God - in his unitarian nature - raised Jesus from the dead. Not "the Father" but God - in his unitarian nature - raised Jesus from the dead is the condition of salvation. Powerful stuff.
if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

If Jesus were God, Roman 10:9 would stick to Jesus - and claim he raised himself from the dead- but it doesn't because he is not God.


Yes, they are mutually exclusive! Why do you suppose Scripture says over and over again that Jesus is the Son of God but not once says he is God the Son? Not once does it say God the Holy Spirit.

Scripture says only God the Father over and over again. What Scripture says and doesn't say doesn't mean anything to your trinitarian ideology.

I only care about what scripture says and not your interpretation. You may have more in common with Gen2Rev than you know given your word of knowledge experiences