What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

[quietthinker]

What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God
if it's like making flour into bread, you can eat it.

 

[quietthinker]

Friends.....? Never minded a good pillow fight. Its not my job to force agreement, so to each his own.....its no reason to be enemies.

hmmmm...I'm not sure about that......if you're on the loosing end.

 

[RLT63]

We believe that Jesus is divine, and has been granted divine authority which in the definition of "theos" makes him "a mighty one"....a god-like one but never is it stated in scripture that Jesus is the Almighty.....not once.
He is by his own admission a "created being" as his Father's "only begotten son"...he is unique among the many other "sons of God" because he alone is the first and only direct creation of his Father. He may well be "THE" Archangel Michael, because of things said about him in Daniel and other scriptures....there is only one Archangel. And Micheal is a "Prince" who stands in behalf of Jehovah's people, We also know that the description of the coming Messiah in Isaiah 9:6-7 depicts him as a "Mighty God" but not the "Almighty God"....he is also called the "Prince of Peace" so again we see Jesus as a Prince...the son of a King who can also have to role of co-regent.


In our ranks the ones who partake of the emblems (the bread and wine) at the Lord's evening meal, are diminishing in number as we would expect in these last days. As it is a replacement for the Passover, and is observed annually as the Passover was on that specific date. (Nisan 14 according to the Jewish calendar) that means that we will not celebrate Easter because it is a pagan adoption and has no place in the life of a Christian. The word "Easter" is a dead giveaway....its the name of a pagan fertility goddess and her emblems were rabbits and eggs....sound familiar?

The "anointed" (as we call them) are just fellow Christians in the congregation with no special attention drawn to them because they are humble and do not seek it. We support them in their work and in their trials, and as their numbers shrink and the congregations are made up of their subjects, we all look forward to being guided and directed by them during the thousand years of the Kingdom's rule....bringing us back to God's original purpose for humankind and this carefully prepared earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)
They have been chosen by God for their heavenly role.

Those who partake of the emblems without God's anointing will answer for their error.
1 Corinthians 11:27-29....
"Therefore, whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 First let a man approve himself after scrutiny, and only then let him eat of the loaf and drink of the cup. 29 For the one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment against himself."

Thank you for answering the questions. Are the ones who take the bread and wine the 144,000?

 

[Peterlag]

Peterlag,

Jesus came as Man (Hebrews 2:16-18).

Compare and contrast "Jesus came as Man" with your first sentence, specifically "Jesus had to come as God".

You asked for a verse or two, so here's a passage based upon your question being reframed to the Biblical "Jesus came as Man":

"assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted" (Hebrews 2:16-18).​

Jesus is the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) who came to earth in the form of man (Philippians 2:6-8).

Peterlag, see the Apostle Paul's writing:

"who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Paul, Philippians 2:6-8).​

As you've been shown scripturally elsewhere, Jesus' followers can refer to Jesus as truly Man and/or truly God.

• The follower of Jesus named Paul wrote Jesus was "found in appearance as a man" (Philippians 2:8), so Paul describes Jesus as truly Man.
• The follower of Jesus named Paul wrote Jesus "existed in the form of God" (Philippians 2:6), so Paul describes Jesus as truly God.

Both Philippians 2:8 and Philippians 2:6 are descriptive of who Jesus is.

Jesus existing in the form of God equivocates with Jesus being God always.

Jesus taking the form of a slave equivocates with Jesus coming to Earth as a Man.

Peterlag, that's two passages from the Bible that explain why Jesus came as Man.

You can't be two of something at the same time.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you for answering the questions. Are the ones who take the bread and wine the 144,000?

We believe so. These are the ones who will govern mankind and act as priests on our behalf during the thousand year reign of Christ, and since they are selected by God and anointed with his spirit, we can look forward to the best rulership mankind has ever had....hand picked by God...who could ask for better?

By partaking of the bread and wine, these are attesting to their calling and fulfilling their earthly obligations whilst they wait to take their heavenly positions.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If He was trying to simply prove He was "older", He would have said, "Before Abraham was, I was". That's proper syntax in ANY language and if anyone knew how to frame a thought, it was He of Whom it was said, "No man ever spoke like this Man".

Again, "Before Abraham was, I was". That what you read? That what you NWT says?

He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Not "I WAS", but "AM". "I AM".

Is that proper syntax? Is that how you tell someone you've been around longer than they? No. It's how you tell someone "I AM God and there is none else. I AM God and there is none like Me."

This has been posted before but it addresses the problem of the connection between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58....

According to my studies, God never said "I Am" was his name in Exodus 3:14.

At Exodus 3:14-15, when Moses asked God for his name, and from the Jewish Tanakh it reads....
"God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:


15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר" (The Complete Jewish Bible)

Yahweh does not only mean "I AM" in John 8:58 because it has no connection whatsoever with Exodus 3:14-15.

Strongs renders "I Am" in John 8:58 as..."to be, to exist, to happen, to be present". So which is the correct rendering of that verse?
Strongs also says of εἰμί eimí; "the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):—am, have been, × it is I, was." So not just one meaning.

God's name was not a statement about his existence because he was the God of their forefathers, so they knew who he was.
His name means "I will be what I will be" and it was a statement about his intentions towards his people, once freed from Egyptian slavery.
"The Lord God is "יְהֹוָ֞ה"....Yahweh. This was a name that was to be held in reverence for all their generations, but they chose to refrain from uttering it. They never had God's sanction or command to do that.

So in answering a question about the past, Jesus answered in the past tense....."Before Abraham was born, I have been" or "I was".
And from Strongs Concordance, that is also a correct translation.

 

[Wrangler]

And you can't pretend what disproves your point is not there

Hardly a more illogical statement was ever made by anyone in the history of humanity.

 

[Wrangler]

If He was trying to simply prove He was "older", He would have said, "Before Abraham was, I was".

You are clearly, desperately intent on reading into Scripture what is not there. If it was important for us to know he was God incarnate, why didn't he just come right out and say it - like he came right out and said he was the Messiah? Why is all the so called evidence vaguely worded and you have to read into it?

 

[RLT63]

Messiah is only found in the KJV in the book of Daniel. The NIV translates Christ and Son of God as Messiah.

 

[RLT63]

You can't be two of something at the same time.

You can't but Jesus can do a lot of things you can't do.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Jesus can do a lot of things you can't do.

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.” (John 14:12)

 

[RLT63]

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.” (John 14:12)

How many people have you raised from the dead?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

How many people have you raised from the dead?

Is that what you consider a “greater” work?

Your argument isn’t with me, it’s with the holy scriptures.

 

[Matthias]

“Now the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, …”

(Jeremiah 1:4, WEB)

@RLT63 how do you understand this? When the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah (or when the word of Yahweh came to anyone in the OT) do you think the word is a pre-Incarnate appearance of Jesus?

 

[RLT63]

Is that what you consider a “greater” work?

Your argument isn’t with me, it’s with the holy scriptures.

What are the greater works?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

What are the greater works?

“…Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:37-40)

 

[theefaith]

Sometimes, baptism just makes people wet.

Baptism and the Catholic Church makes a Christian. That’s been your message to me.

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27


A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 2:1&5 brought to life in baptism
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!

 

[theefaith]

“… widespread is the mistake of attributing to primitive Christianity the Greek belief in the immortality of the soul.”

(Oscar Cullmann, Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead?, p. 7.)

I quote this for two reasons:

1. I self-identify as a primitive Christian; and
2. This is easy to confirm by reading the Early Church Fathers.

Was Dr. Cullmann, then, on “easy street”?

“… the truth I have found it necessary to draw between the courageous and joyful primitive Christian hope of the resurrection of the dead and the serene philosophic expectation of the survival of the immortal soul, has displeased not only many sincere Christians in all Communions and of all theological outlooks, but also those whose convictions, while not outwardly alienated from Christianity, are more strongly molded by philosophical considerations.”

(Ibid., p. 6)

I read the book many years before I delivered my grandmother’s graveside sermon. I often recall this comment made by Dr. Cullmann when I think back about that day in the cemetery.

The Baptist pastor that summer morning was, to put it mildly, “displeased”.

What I had previously only read about, I experienced myself that day.

It doesn’t matter? Let the reader decide.

It mattered enough to make a Baptist pastor scowl.

to say you are a primitive Christian is to date the church, early, middle, late and the church is eternal!

also you are saying there is more than one kind of Christian

 

[Matthias]

to say you are a primitive Christian is to date the church, early, middle, late and the church is eternal!

also you are saying there is more than one kind of Christian

Cullmann and a whole lot of others, too.

 

[Matthias]

“Now the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, …”

(Jeremiah 1:4, WEB)

@RLT63 how do you understand this? When the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah (or when the word of Yahweh came to anyone in the OT) do you think the word is a pre-Incarnate appearance of Jesus?

Jesus had nothing to do with the message Jeremiah received from Yahweh.

I checked the passage on Bible Gateway, looking to see if any translator capitalized the “w”. Only one did, NLV: “Now the Word of the Lord came to me saying, …”

That brings me to John 1:1.