What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

[Matthias]

@RLT63 have you ever watched the movie Braveheart? One of my ancestors is depicted in the film. If you’ve seen the movie, would you care to guess who my ancestor is?

 

[RLT63]

Why? They aren’t hearing the news I’m delivering. Those few who do dismiss it out of hand.

The area where I currently live is roughly 80% Roman Catholic. I’m pretty well-known here. Some day I’ll have to share with you what happened when the Catholic Church allowed me to speak at my father-in-law’s funeral mass. (The officiating deacon and priest weren’t happy. My mother-in-law told me in the ride to the cemetery that my father-in-law would have been happy that they weren’t.)

When a couple of years later my mother-in-law died, I wasn’t allowed by the Catholic Church to speak at her funeral mass. Lesson learned, I suppose.



No Catholic worth his salt believes that to be the case. But it’s true, say I.

btw, one of my ancestors is a very famous Catholic saint. A “star of stars,” if you will. I do love irony.

I have issues with the Catholic Church but not with people who are Catholic. We just agree to disagree on many things.

 

[Peterlag]

Great question! I think I've answered it several dozen times. One does not have to abandon

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture, e.g., 1C, Sh'ma, 'For us, there is one God, the Father,' etc.

The Elephant in the room is so big that nobody else can fit in the room. We needed to be redeemed and it had to be a man.

 

[Matthias]

I have issues with the Catholic Church but not with people who are Catholic. We just agree to disagree on many things.

I’m able to agree with Catholic scholars on a great many things. They are, on the whole, outstanding.

 

[RLT63]

@RLT63 have you ever watched the movie Braveheart? One of my ancestors is depicted in the film. If you’ve seen the movie, would you care to guess who my ancestor is?

I've seen Braveheart several times. Who is your ancestor?

 

[Matthias]

I've seen Braveheart several times. Who is your ancestor?

It would have been more fun if you had hazarded a guess.

King Edward II. My 20th great grandfather through my mother’s genealogical line. (Her family is very famous in English history. They lost it all when one of them lead a rebellion against Queen Mary. I was able to visit the place where he was executed. The family ancestral castle is still standing and occupied. I wanted to visit it but wasn’t able to make arrangements to do so.)

It’s through him that I’m related to one of the most famous among the Catholic saints.

 

[RLT63]

It would have been more fun if you had hazarded a guess.

King Edward II. My 20th great grandfather through my mother’s genealogical line.

It’s through him that I’m related to one of the most famous among the Catholic saints.

You are one of the most interesting people I have ever talked to on a forum

 

[Peterlag]

no, must have missed it....its a long thread, can you give me a reference? Page and #number?

My take on Colossians 1:16 based on the context it's set in...

When we read the word "create" we usually think about the original creation in Genesis, but there are other ways the word is used in Scripture. For example, Christians are "new creations" (2 Corinthians 5:17). After the resurrection, God delegated to Christ the authority to create, and when we read the Epistles we see evidence of Jesus creating things for his Church. Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating "one new man" (his Body, the Church) out of Jew and Gentile. In pouring out the gift of holy spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38), the Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, that is, the "new man" their new nature (2Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Ephesians 4:24)

Not only did Jesus create his Church out of Jew and Gentile, he had to create the structure and positions that would allow it to function, both in the spiritual world (positions for the angels that would minister to the Church... see Revelation 1:1 "his angel") and in the physical world (positions and ministries here on earth... see Romans 12:4-8; Ephesians 4:7-11). The Bible describes these physical and spiritual realities by the phrase, "...things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible. Jesus was not around in the beginning to create the heavens and the earth, but he did create the "all things" that pertain to his Body, the Church.

 

[Wrangler]

The Elephant in the room is so big that nobody else can fit in the room. We needed to be redeemed and it had to be a man.

Of course it had to be a man! Trinitarians seek to escape the logic of this by appealing to dualism.

Their simultaneous claim is of the only Being it cannot be. The reason is the means of redemption is to pay the wages of sin with death, something an eternal, unchanging god cannot pay.

Here, they escape logic via dualism again. They claim only a part of god died - with no Scriptural support at all.

 

[Matthias]

You are one of the most interesting people I have ever talked to on a forum

That’s nice of you to say. Thank you.

I’m more tired than I am interesting, and I’m very, very tired.

Too many irons in the fire, and thrusting in more. (I’ll spare you the boring details.)

 

[Kermos]

All I want is a verse or two that say why Jesus had to come as God. Nobody can give me a verse. Something is really wrong with this. If Jesus had to be God and come to the earth. Then how come the Bible does not tell us why that happened? Would not something like that be important?

Peterlag,

Jesus came as Man (Hebrews 2:16-18).

Compare and contrast "Jesus came as Man" with your first sentence, specifically "Jesus had to come as God".

You asked for a verse or two, so here's a passage based upon your question being reframed to the Biblical "Jesus came as Man":

"assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted" (Hebrews 2:16-18).​

Jesus is the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) who came to earth in the form of man (Philippians 2:6-8).

Peterlag, see the Apostle Paul's writing:

"who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Paul, Philippians 2:6-8).​

As you've been shown scripturally elsewhere, Jesus' followers can refer to Jesus as truly Man and/or truly God.

• The follower of Jesus named Paul wrote Jesus was "found in appearance as a man" (Philippians 2:8), so Paul describes Jesus as truly Man.
• The follower of Jesus named Paul wrote Jesus "existed in the form of God" (Philippians 2:6), so Paul describes Jesus as truly God.

Both Philippians 2:8 and Philippians 2:6 are descriptive of who Jesus is.

Jesus existing in the form of God equivocates with Jesus being God always.

Jesus taking the form of a slave equivocates with Jesus coming to Earth as a Man.

Peterlag, that's two passages from the Bible that explain why Jesus came as Man.

 

[RLT63]

Peterlag,

Jesus came as Man (Hebrews 2:16-18).

Compare and contrast "Jesus came as Man" with your first sentence, specifically "Jesus had to come as God".

You asked for a verse or two, so here's a passage based upon your question being reframed to the Biblical "Jesus came as Man":

"assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted" (Hebrews 2:16-18).​

Jesus is the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) who came to earth in the form of man (Philippians 2:6-8).

Peterlag, see the Apostle Paul's writing:

"who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Paul, Philippians 2:6-8).​

As you've been shown scripturally elsewhere, Jesus' followers can refer to Jesus as truly Man and/or truly God.

• The follower of Jesus named Paul wrote Jesus was "found in appearance as a man" (Philippians 2:8), so Paul describes Jesus as truly Man.
• The follower of Jesus named Paul wrote Jesus "existed in the form of God" (Philippians 2:6), so Paul describes Jesus as truly God.

Both Philippians 2:8 and Philippians 2:6 are descriptive of who Jesus is.

Jesus existing in the form of God equivocates with Jesus being God always.

Jesus taking the form of a slave equivocates with Jesus coming to Earth as a Man.

Peterlag, that's two passages from the Bible that explain why Jesus came as Man.

Excellent response. Sadly it won't make any difference to some.

 

[Aunty Jane]

As you've been shown scripturally elsewhere, Jesus' followers can refer to Jesus as truly Man and/or truly God.

• The follower of Jesus named Paul wrote Jesus was "found in appearance as a man" (Philippians 2:8), so Paul describes Jesus as truly Man.
• The follower of Jesus named Paul wrote Jesus "existed in the form of God" (Philippians 2:6), so Paul describes Jesus as truly God.

Both Philippians 2:8 and Philippians 2:6 are descriptive of who Jesus is.

Jesus existing in the form of God equivocates with Jesus being God always.

Jesus taking the form of a slave equivocates with Jesus coming to Earth as a Man.

Peterlag, that's two passages from the Bible that explain why Jesus came as Man.

Read correctly, and with support from the rest of the Bible, these two scripture not only tell us that Jesus is NOT God, but both of them tell us why he could NOT to be God in order to redeem the human race.

Jesus existed in God's "form"...and Paul said he was "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15)....so what "form" would an invisible spirit have.... before his earthly sojourn? He was also an invisible spirit. :hmm:
Its not saying what you are reading into the words.

He did NOT think that equality with God was something to be grasped....yet you all somehow think he did.
You tell us that he was both God AND man....how can an immortal be mortal? One cannot die and the other can. There is not a single verse in the whole of scripture that tells us that Jesus had a dual personality, a half man/half god....or that he was in a triune "godhead" with the Father and the holy spirit. You have so successfully swallowed the lie...cooked up by an apostate church hundreds of years after Jesus' death....hook, line and sinker....so as never to allow it to be extracted......that is your choice of course....but don't forget that it is the "few" not the majority who will inherit the blessings of the kingdom. (Matthew 7:13-14) Jesus will reject those "many". (Matthew 7:21-23)

Seriously, the stuff you post is just a regurgitation of the party line.....we didn't believe it the first time you said it....if I hear "I AM" one more time ....its been dealt with scripturally.....but your ears are full of your fingers. There is no "I AM" where Jesus is claiming to be God....not once.

 

[RLT63]

Read correctly, and with support from the rest of the Bible, these two scripture not only tell us that Jesus is NOT God, but both of them tell us why he could NOT to be God in order to redeem the human race.

Jesus existed in God's "form"...and Paul said he was "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15)....so what "form" would an invisible spirit have.... before his earthly sojourn? He was also an invisible spirit. :hmm:
Its not saying what you are reading into the words.

He did NOT think that equality with God was something to be grasped....yet you all somehow think he did.
You tell us that he was both God AND man....how can an immortal be mortal? One cannot die and the other can. There is not a single verse in the whole of scripture that tells us that Jesus had a dual personality, a half man/half god....or that he was in a triune "godhead" with the Father and the holy spirit. You have so successfully swallowed the lie...cooked up by an apostate church hundreds of years after Jesus' death....hook, line and sinker....so as never to allow it to be extracted......that is your choice of course....but don't forget that it is the "few" not the majority who will inherit the blessings of the kingdom. (Matthew 7:13-14) Jesus will reject those "many". (Matthew 7:21-23)

Seriously, the stuff you post is just a regurgitation of the party line.....we didn't believe it the first time you said it....if I hear "I AM" one more time ....its been dealt with scripturally.....but your ears are full of your fingers. There is no "I AM" where Jesus is claiming to be God....not once.

Okay you don't believe Jesus is God you believe he is a god, a created being, maybe an archangel. Do you take communion at your place of worship? Does everyone? John 6:53-54

 

[Phoneman777]

I used to use the KJV years ago, and now I never consult it. After doing serious Bible study, I find it bends the truth to promote Christendom's ill conceived doctrines. Not a Bible I would ever use for study....not to mention the fact that no one uses archaic English anymore and the phrasing in that old dinosaur is just plain confusing to today's English speakers.


Jesus was addressing the Pharisees and he was not claiming to be God because "I AM" is not what he was telling the Israelites at all. They knew who he was, so he was telling them a broader meaning of his name "I will be what I will be" according to the Jewish Tanakh.
Exodus 3:13-15... https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864

Jesus' disciples recognized him as who he said he was....
Paul wrote..."For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."
There is no ambiguity in that statement.....Their "one God" was "the Father" and their "Lord" (Master) was Jesus Christ. They recognized two separate entities, but only one was their God.


I was referring to the statement made by the 'preacher' you referred to....

I see our problem. I trust the TR and you don't, and I don't think the CT is worth the paper it's written but you highly regard it. We can still be friends, I hope :)

 

[Phoneman777]

Because you cannot make up in quantity what you lack in quality.

The incessant claim that 'all Scripture' points to the inherently contradictory doctrine does not survive scrutiny when one looks at each verse at a time.

It's like you concede the verse under discussion but desperately attempt to divert attention to all these other Scriptures that you claim support your dogma. It's always elsewhere.

And you can't pretend what disproves your point is not there. You can't point to the texts which proves the human nature of Jesus and ignore the ones that prove His simultaneous divine, everlasting to everlasting nature.

 

[Phoneman777]

No one is denying that. The point is to claim that I am older than another is NOT a claim of being a deity.

If He was trying to simply prove He was "older", He would have said, "Before Abraham was, I was". That's proper syntax in ANY language and if anyone knew how to frame a thought, it was He of Whom it was said, "No man ever spoke like this Man".

Again, "Before Abraham was, I was". That what you read? That what you NWT says?

He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Not "I WAS", but "AM". "I AM".

Is that proper syntax? Is that how you tell someone you've been around longer than they? No. It's how you tell someone "I AM God and there is none else. I AM God and there is none like Me."

 

[Aunty Jane]

When we read the word "create" we usually think about the original creation in Genesis, but there are other ways the word is used in Scripture. For example, Christians are "new creations" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Aren't you now reading into scripture words that are not there? I am seeing assumptions used to support a belief. Can't we allow scripture to speak for itself? It does if you let it....
When Paul wrote to the Colossians, placing emphasis on the God-given position of superiority that Christ enjoys, (Colossians 1:13-20) he did so to promote how truth would counteract paganistic philosophy, Jewish tradition, and another practice, “a form of worship of the angels.” (Col 2:18)

A deceptive philosophy was being fostered by false teachers in Colossae. Emphasis was being placed on the observance of the Mosaic Law. The practice of asceticism was also being urged. The apostle warned Colossian Christians to look out, so that someone would not carry them off “as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.” (Col 2:8)

In 2 Corinthians 5:17 Paul was alluding to the spirit anointing of Christ's elect.
Luke 3:21-22....
“As [Jesus] was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: ‘You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.’” At that point Jesus became “a new creation,” a spirit-begotten Son of God. (2 Corinthians 5:17) This was something "new" in his existence and when those who were chosen to rule with him as "kings and priests" were also spirit begotten, they too could look forward to the literal transformation that would occur at their resurrection......from having a physical body to being given a spirit body....becoming a completely "new creation". This is what being "born again" means.

But this is only for the elect.....not all Christians have "the heavenly calling". As Paul demonstrated in 1 Corinthians 1:2...
"to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours."

And also Colossians 1:2...
"To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father."
Do you see the subtle differentiation between those called to be "saints", and those who are also disciples of the Lord, who are not so called. (Hebrews 3:1) It is God who calls them.

Understanding this differentiation, we can see that not all Christians will go to heaven. Those who are spirit anointed have a specific role to play as "kings and priests" under the direction of the "High Priest" Jesus Christ. (Revelation 20:6) These alone experience the "first resurrection".
The general resurrection of the dead takes place after the cleansing of the earth of all wickedness and Christ is ruling as King.....then he will call all the dead from their graves to resume their lives on earth, and to be reunited with their families. (John 5:28-29)
God never intended for the earth to be a training ground for heaven...it was meant to be our permanent home, and will yet be once the Kingdom has fulfilled its role. (Revelation 21:2-4)

After the resurrection, God delegated to Christ the authority to create, and when we read the Epistles we see evidence of Jesus creating things for his Church. Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating "one new man" (his Body, the Church) out of Jew and Gentile. In pouring out the gift of holy spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38), the Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, that is, the "new man" their new nature (2Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Ephesians 4:24)

I don't see this at all. When Christ is spoken of with reference to creation, he was said to be "in the beginning with God" and that can only mean one thing.....the beginning of creation, (Revelation 3:14) since it is mentioned a few times. There is no reason to think that "creation" means something other than what is stated and what is understood when referencing it. Otherwise you too can read into scripture what you want to see, rather than what is actually says. It can be a trap. There are some things clearly stated, and some things not so clearly stated....you cant make a 'doctrine' out of a suggestion or an inference....but it can be held as a 'tentative' belief if it doesn't fight with other scripture.

Not only did Jesus create his Church out of Jew and Gentile, he had to create the structure and positions that would allow it to function, both in the spiritual world (positions for the angels that would minister to the Church... see Revelation 1:1 "his angel") and in the physical world (positions and ministries here on earth... see Romans 12:4-8; Ephesians 4:7-11). The Bible describes these physical and spiritual realities by the phrase, "...things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible. Jesus was not around in the beginning to create the heavens and the earth, but he did create the "all things" that pertain to his Body, the Church.

When you see the structure of God's people in how they were commanded to worship, Paul spoke of types and shadows....the Temple for example was the centre of God's worship in Jerusalem, but after the death of his Christ, the Temple was destroyed...never to be built again.....why? Because that shadow was to disappear and the heavenly type was to come to the fore. "New Jerusalem" was now the seat of God's worship in heaven. No geographical location on earth matters anymore.
Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman tells us....
"The woman said to him: “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father." (John 4:19-21)

The whole earth would now become the Promised Land with Christ with his elect ruling over redeemed mankind; the priesthood would assist Christ in the administration of his duties, just as the priests did for the presiding High Priest in Israel when worship was centered around the Temple.
Their subjects will be those who either survive the great tribulation, or who come back to earthly life in the resurrection. "The last day" is when Jews expected the resurrection to take place as Martha said to Jesus concerning her brother Lazarus..."Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” (John 11:19-21) The thousand year reign of God's Kingdom is "the last day".

It is so important to have the truth, but we cannot do so in isolation from other like-minded Christians.....we must belong to a united global brotherhood who all speak in agreement with no divisions and no dissension. (1 Corinthians 1:10) These must also be "doing the will of the Father"...rather than just talking about it. (Matthew 7:21-23) They were to preach the "good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nation" before "the end" of the present world system comes crashing down upon an unsuspecting world. (Matthew 24:14)

Can I ask you "what is the good news of the Kingdom" according to your beliefs?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I see our problem. I trust the TR and you don't, and I don't think the CT is worth the paper it's written but you highly regard it. We can still be friends, I hope :)

We all have to decide where to put our faith.....its all part of the free will that God gave to every one of us. Its a precious gift in so many ways.

I find it fascinating that we can all read the same scripture and all come to different conclusions....but God knows those who belong to him.
He tells us that he is the one who opens hearts and eyes to his truth. (John 6:65)

Friends.....? Never minded a good pillow fight. Its not my job to force agreement, so to each his own.....its no reason to be enemies.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Okay you don't believe Jesus is God you believe he is a god, a created being, maybe an archangel.

We believe that Jesus is divine, and has been granted divine authority which in the definition of "theos" makes him "a mighty one"....a god-like one but never is it stated in scripture that Jesus is the Almighty.....not once.
He is by his own admission a "created being" as his Father's "only begotten son"...he is unique among the many other "sons of God" because he alone is the first and only direct creation of his Father. He may well be "THE" Archangel Michael, because of things said about him in Daniel and other scriptures....there is only one Archangel. And Micheal is a "Prince" who stands in behalf of Jehovah's people, We also know that the description of the coming Messiah in Isaiah 9:6-7 depicts him as a "Mighty God" but not the "Almighty God"....he is also called the "Prince of Peace" so again we see Jesus as a Prince...the son of a King who can also have the role of co-regent.

Do you take communion at your place of worship? Does everyone? John 6:53-54

In our ranks the ones who partake of the emblems (the bread and wine) at the Lord's evening meal, are diminishing in number as we would expect in these last days. As it is a replacement for the Passover, and is observed annually as the Passover was on that specific date. (Nisan 14 according to the Jewish calendar) that means that we will not celebrate Easter because it is a pagan adoption and has no place in the life of a Christian. The word "Easter" is a dead giveaway....its the name of a pagan fertility goddess and her emblems were rabbits and eggs....sound familiar?

The "anointed" (as we call them) are just fellow Christians in the congregation with no special attention drawn to them because they are humble and do not seek it. We support them in their work and in their trials, and as their numbers shrink and the congregations are made up of their subjects, we all look forward to being guided and directed by them during the thousand years of the Kingdom's rule....bringing us back to God's original purpose for humankind and this carefully prepared earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)
They have been chosen by God for their heavenly role.

Those who partake of the emblems without God's anointing will answer for their error.
1 Corinthians 11:27-29....
"Therefore, whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 First let a man approve himself after scrutiny, and only then let him eat of the loaf and drink of the cup. 29 For the one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment against himself."