What becomes of our faith if the Genesis account is NOT literal?

[Wrangler]

Another golden nugget from the Ark Encounter ... Radioactive decay half life.

Scientists say rock layers form over 100's of million of years. In 1980, Mount Saint Helens deposited numerous wrong layers IN MINUTES.

Samples were sent to 5 different and independent labs to determine the age of the rock. The determinations were 65-258 million years. Ken Ham asks the question, if radioactive dating is wrong for a known age of rock, why would you trust it for an unknown age of rock?

 

[Wrangler]

I thought that was debunked.

Friend, learn to discern non-existence from those in denial of what does exist. Evidence of Jews being in Israel from antiquity is beyond doubt. Evidence of the exodus also exists. Just because atheists want proof - beyond reason - does not mean that evidence does not exist.

 

[BarneyFife]

While you're inventing theories, we got the answers that the Bible gives:

Rom. 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 13 For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come.
18 So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous. 20 Now the Law came on the scene so that trespassing might increase. But where sin abounded, undeserved kindness abounded still more. 21 To what end? So that just as sin ruled as king with death, so also undeserved kindness might rule as king through righteousness leading to everlasting life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Not sure how this proves that animals were born to die from the very beginning...

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[ElieG12]

Not sure how this proves that animals were born to die from the very beginning...

Rom. 5:12-21 proves human death is not natural or part of the original purpose of God as you are theorizing when you said in post#50:

I used to try to imagine how sin began. And, at one point, I had nearly decided that it was a product of the creative nature of God that existed in the heart (mind) of Lucifer. But I ultimately had to abandon that theory, because reverse engineering kind of implies that God would also be susceptible to a fall from His own grace.

About animals' death, the passage I quoted plainly states that:

2 Pet. 2:12 ... animals (...) act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed ...

So, while animals' death is normal, humans' death is not according to the Scriptures.

I suppose that when God told Adam that he would die if he ate from that fruit, Adam already knew what death was when he saw some animal die. Death is as easy to understand as killing a mosquito.

 

[BarneyFife]

Rom. 5:12-21 proves human death is not natural or part of the original purpose of God as you are theorizing when you said in post#50:

Regardless of whatever conclusions you might have drawn, I do not believe death was ever intended for human beings, nor for lower animals.

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[ElieG12]

Regardless of whatever you believe, the Scriptures already gave me those answers I needed to know about that.

 

[BarneyFife]

Hogwash

 

[Wrangler]

Not sure how this proves that animals were born to die from the very beginning...

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Here is how. If animals, including man, were not born to die from the beginning there would be no purpose to the Tree of Life.

 

[St. SteVen]

How could it possibly be either verified or debunked beyond question?

Egyptian chariots at the bottom of the Red Sea is pretty compelling evidence. Not like they fell through the ice. - LOL

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[St. SteVen]

Here is how. If animals, including man, were not born to die from the beginning there would be no purpose to the Tree of Life.

Is it metaphorical in Revelation?

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[BarneyFife]

Here is how. If animals, including man, were not born to die from the beginning there would be no purpose to the Tree of Life.

...unless they were never meant to be apart from the tree.

At the most basic level of the argument: Food is not the only thing animals need from nature to sustain life.

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[BarneyFife]

Egyptian chariots at the bottom of the Red Sea is pretty compelling evidence. Not like they fell through the ice. - LOL

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I guess my point is, I can't afford to have to rely on too much outside the Word itself to warrant my faith in it.

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[ElieG12]

Here is how. If animals, including man, were not born to die from the beginning there would be no purpose to the Tree of Life.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not give man any additional knowledge, but rather represented God's right to tell man what was right and wrong. By eating from it Adam took away God's right of deciding that and became independent.

Likewise the tree of life had no special property that prevented man from getting sick and dying. Rather, if God allowed someone to eat of it, He was guaranteeing them an indefinite life. It was practically the reward of respecting God's authority by not eating from the first tree and evidently Adam would have been permitted to eat this fruit after proving faithful to a point that God considered satisfactory and sufficient. Since he transgressed, he was prevented from having opportunity to eat from it and having a guaranteed indefinite lifespan.

The "efect" of the fruit of the tree of life was not intended for animals. Animals are not aware of anything so they don't act out of reasoning but by instinct.

 

[Wrangler]

...unless they were never meant to be apart from the tree.

Huh? If we were made immortal, what purpose would the Tree of Life serve?

 

[ElieG12]

The continuation of the perfect life that Adam had been enjoying was conditional on his obedience to Jehovah.

By disobeying God he became unworthy to continue living in that place created for righteous people, and was prevented from receiving the guarantee of the indefinite prolongation of his life by preventing him from eating the fruit of the tree of life. Eating that fruit would have committed God to prolong his life because of the promise that the meaning of that tree implied.

 

[Wrangler]

I guess my point is, I can't afford to have to rely on too much outside the Word itself to warrant my faith in it.

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When talking to unbelievers who claim observable evidence is their guide, Psalm 19 comes to mind; not just the Word but the Works of God may light our path.

 

[St. SteVen]

Huh? If we were made immortal, what purpose would the Tree of Life serve?

That's an interesting question.

A&E were sent out of the garden (orchard) to prevent them from gaining immortality. Meaning, they were already mortal. (hold that thought)

The consequence for eating thereof was death. But they were already mortal. So... ??? What kind of death?

Romans 5:12 NIV
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

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[BarneyFife]

Huh? If we were made immortal, what purpose would the Tree of Life serve?

You seem to be insisting on some kind of immortality that needs no means of sustenance aside from the abstract idea of said immortality. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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[ElieG12]

Eternal life is one thing. Immortality is something else.

A perfect human body like Adam's when he was created could live forever. In that condition of perfect and just (out of obedience) his body could still be hurt for various reasons. He would have to have a guarantee that God would ensure that nothing that could endanger his physical integrity happened to him. That guarantee was the tree of life.

When he disobeyed he automatically lost perfection. He began to age right at that very moment, and death would be the end of the process. Upon being expelled from Eden, his condition worsened, because the situation outside was hostile, and he no longer had the possibility of enjoying God's guaranteed care.

Immortality is not possible in bodies of flesh and bones. It is only granted to the spirits, and only if the Creator gives it to any of them in addition to the eternal life that they enjoy.

 

[JohnDB]

This point causes me a massive amount of cognitive dissonance. (something most won't admit)

The gospel and the New Testament narrative unravel when these things aren't literal.

- The geologies are meaningless. (or in serious error)
- Who wrote the Books of Moses? (and when)
- If Adam wasn't a literal human then he didn't literally sin.
- If Adam didn't literally sin, then there is no original sin.
- If there is no original sin then being born in Adam's race does not make you a sinner.
- If we are not redeemed from original sin by Christ's payment of the death penalty...
- Then the Atonement was of none effect.
- If the Atonement was of none effect, we are lost in our sin and awaiting judgment of our works.
- We all fall short of the perceived standard (the glory of God) and stand condemned.
- Faith in Christ can't help us, the Atonement is null and void. (as outlined above)
- Where does that leave us?

Alternatively:
- There is anecdotal evidence (and in some cases historical evidence) that faith in Christ can help us.
- And that a renewed relationship with the creator is possible. (assuming we were alienated prior)

But how can this be when church doctrine is a house of cards?
- Is a relationship with the creator of figment of our imagination? (wishful thinking?)
- Might we conjure up our own salvation to quell the fear of the unknown?

It's enough to drive one mad. (as my British friends might say)

I like what some atheists conclude.
Living your life as if there might be a God works better than living your life as if there isn't a God, (just in case?) - LOL

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Ok....
God doesn't have lungs or hands...or even fingers.

So there is figurative language there....proper discernment draws lines at varying locations as to what is literal and what is figurative. Our prejudices tend to blur the lines a lot.

Like how long was a "day" when the sun wasn't created until the fourth "day"?

How could there be a 7th Day where God rested when Jesus says "My Father is always working" including on the 7th day. Have we reached the 7th Day yet?

And as far as Adam goes....I done plenty all on my own...his sin in me ain't nothing by comparison of things I done. So I definitely need a Savior. (Nor have I reached one step away from sinless perfection either despite my best efforts)