What becomes of our faith if the Genesis account is NOT literal?

[Lambano]

 

[St. SteVen]

So, what do you have that you can hold on to?

The knot at the end of my rope. - LOL

If they blow the planet out from under my feet, I will hang on to that rope that seems to be firmly attached above. When I finally get to the other end of the rope I will discover who or what was keeping me from falling.

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[Bob]

If the Genesis account isn't literal, and human beings evolved in a gradual, slow process from lower life forms, then there's is no human (or even Angelic, in the case of Lucifer) culpability for the existence of sin, which effectively makes God the deliberate author of sin—a deal-breaker in my little mind.

I don't think we usually care to strain the limits of our God-given imaginations enough to consider the ramifications of, or to work out some of the problems with our surface-reading and broad speculative tendencies based on our narrow, dogma-driven limitations we impose on our own contemplative powers.

The usual, lazy way of dealing with this stuff is censorship and cancellation. So, by blind faith we become more and more intellectually (and emotionally/spiritually, as a sad side-effect) dwarfed.

We've got to give people room to make some wrong conclusions if we ever expect to get to what's right.

Great minds like Bell and Edison often quipped that they wished their success had been measured by all of the failures they experienced along their way to their comparatively few positive outcomes.

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Thank you for your provocative post.

Your question might could be rephrased, “If evolution without God is true, how can there be sin?” Well, sure, which is pretty nearly an atheists position: morals are relative, blah, blah . . . .

How about this instead: evolution did happen, but with God in charge all the way. (See, e.g., books by J Polkinghorne, a nuclear physicist and ordained Anglican priest.)

God still creates Adam and Eve, but they intrinsically behave like other social mammals: tempted by desire, and rationalizing the means to obtain desires. BUT: God can communicate with them (unlike other social mammals), and He states clear commandments (expectations) and makes them promises. Both are seduced by their desires, and the rest is history.

So, why did the Bible not give this explanation? As it happens God never gives us scientific information without our working for it, so the authors of the Bible did the best they could with what hisotorical information they had. From God’s point of view, He clearly was most interested in how people treat each other, and view Him.

Although I do not expect you to agree, perhaps you can see how many people can be scientists and Christians.

Blessings.

 

[St. SteVen]

So, what do you have that you can hold on to?

Maybe I should answer more directly. ???

I was raised a Christian. Been attending church most of my life. I've read and studied the Bible cover to cover. Been a short missions trip. Was elected Elder in the church I was raised in. Been in prison ministry. Was an Adult Bible study teacher. Married to a Christian wife for 44 years and counting. All this to say that my beliefs had been well formed from a Protestant evangelical POV.

Lately I have been questioning things. Not sure about much of my upbringing.

I still believe that there is a creator God that put all this in motion. He's a good God that is worthy of my praise. He has been an ever-present help in time of need. Salvation is through Christ alone.

Most everything else is debatable. And maybe half of what I wrote above.

Ultimately, it all comes down to a relationship with God. He loves me warts and all.

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[Lambano]

- If Adam wasn't a literal human then he didn't literally sin.
- If Adam didn't literally sin, then there is no original sin.
- If there is no original sin then being born in Adam's race does not make you a sinner.
- If we are not redeemed from original sin by Christ's payment of the death penalty...
- Then the Atonement was of none effect.
- If the Atonement was of none effect, we are lost in our sin and awaiting judgment of our works.
- We all fall short of the perceived standard (the glory of God) and stand condemned.
- Faith in Christ can't help us, the Atonement is null and void. (as outlined above)

I have to disagree with your logical flow here. May I critique it? (No? Well, I'm gonna do it anyway.)

- If Adam wasn't a literal human then he didn't literally sin.
- If Adam didn't literally sin, then there is no original sin.

Well, SOMEBODY had to commit the first sin. But does it matter? The universal prevalence of human sin is empirically verifiable.

- If there is no original sin then being born in Adam's race does not make you a sinner.

Don't worry; we've all got plenty of unoriginal sins to go around.

- If we are not redeemed from original sin by Christ's payment of the death penalty...
- Then the Atonement was of none effect.

Non sequitur. That does not follow. Even if there is no stain from Original Sin, we carry the stains of our own sins. How does it follow from the non-existence of Original Sin that the Atonement does not cleanse us of our personal sins?

That's why I don't think Christian doctrine is quite as shaky a house of cards you have made it out to be.

 

[Lambano]

I still believe that there is a creator God that put all this in motion. He's a good God that is worthy of my praise. He has been an ever-present help in time of need. Salvation is through Christ alone.

I'm glad that part has made it through the deconstruction zone.

 

[Lambano]

The knot at the end of my rope. - LOL

A frayed knot?

Afraid not.

 

[ElieG12]

Death in humans is not natural. Its origin is in our first parents. After that first human couple, all human beings die. There were no humans before them, and none who were born from them have been able to escape that enemy that is death.

Animals were not created to live forever, but to be part of a cyclical system. Humans, on the other hand, were created to never get sick and to live forever.

2 Pet. 2:12 But these men, like unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed, speak abusively about things of which they are ignorant. They will suffer destruction brought on by their own destructive course, 13 suffering harm as their reward for their own harmful course.

Deut. 32:3 For I will declare the name of Jehovah.
Tell about the greatness of our God!
4 The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness who is never unjust;
Righteous and upright is he.
5 They are the ones who have acted corruptly.
They are not his children, the defect is their own.
They are a crooked and twisted generation!

 

[St. SteVen]

A frayed knot?

Afraid not.

It was me that was 'fraid, the knot was not frayed. Believe it, or knot. - LOL

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[BarneyFife]

Death in humans is not natural. Its origin is in our first parents. After that first human couple, all human beings die. There were no humans before them, and none who were born from them have been able to escape that enemy that is death.

Animals were not created to live forever, but to be part of a cyclical system. Humans, on the other hand, were created to never get sick and to live forever.

2 Pet. 2:12 But these men, like unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed, speak abusively about things of which they are ignorant. They will suffer destruction brought on by their own destructive course, 13 suffering harm as their reward for their own harmful course.

Deut. 32:3 For I will declare the name of Jehovah.
Tell about the greatness of our God!
4 The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness who is never unjust;
Righteous and upright is he.
5 They are the ones who have acted corruptly.
They are not his children, the defect is their own.
They are a crooked and twisted generation!

So we get to 2 Peter before we find out the "cyclical" (read: life-and-death) nature of pre-fall animals? That doesn't sound right—at all.

Death was never part of God's perfect creation.

I used to try to imagine how sin began. And, at one point, I had nearly decided that it was a product of the creative nature of God that existed in the heart (mind) of Lucifer. But I ultimately had to abandon that theory, because reverse engineering kind of implies that God would also be susceptible to a fall from His own grace.

We get into trouble when we start trying to figure out the secret things that belong to God.

Deuteronomy 29:29 — The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

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[St. SteVen]

That's why I don't think Christian doctrine is quite as shaky a house of cards you have made it out to be.

Good post, thanks.

Does the death penalty seem a bit harsh for our personal sin? Or even for the fabled original sin?
The death penalty for eating fruit? And would Adam even understand what that meant?

My own transgressions are WAY short of murder. But I suppose we need to view "sin" condition of humankind as a singular thing, and our own sins (plural) as individual transgressions.

Also... it seems odd that Jesus was the second Adam if the first Adam was a myth. Myth and Mrs.

Genesis 3:20 NIV
Adam[a] named his wife Eve,[b] because she would become the mother of all the living.

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[Lambano]

Also... it seems odd that Jesus was the second Adam if the first Adam was a myth.

"Adam" is just Hebrew for "the Man". You da Man, Adam! There had to be a first one somewhere, sometime, right?

I see that the Hebrew word is pronounced, "Aw, damn!"

 

[St. SteVen]

Death was never part of God's perfect creation.

This is why I don't think Adam (whether real or mythical) understood the consequence of eating the forbidden fruit.
"... for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Say what?

And the commandment in the narrative was given before Eve was created. Adam informed (misinformed - "don't touch") Eve of the commandment. So, who did the serpent speak with? While Adam stood by and did nothing to stop it.

Genesis 2:16-18 KJV
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

--- PARODY ---

Serpent: Did God really say... ?
Eve: He said don't eat and don't touch.
Adam: Oops, my bad, I said don't touch.
Eve: What?! God didn't say that? !!!
Adam: No, I added that because
I know you like to touch things without thinking.
Eve: So, you don't trust me? !!!
Adam: I'm looking out for our best interests. My job.
Eve: I see.
Serpent: Are you going to eat, or not? !!!
Eve: Let me check with the boss. - LOL
Adam: Scram serpent!
Serpent: Hiss... (walks away dejected)
Eve: Hey, let's check out that other tree.
Adam: Good idea!

Indeed.

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[St. SteVen]

I see that the Hebrew word is pronounced, "Aw, damn!"

LOL
That really came to a head with Noah's flood. The regrets...

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[Lambano]

Does the death penalty seem a bit harsh for our personal sin? Or even for the fabled original sin?
The death penalty for eating fruit? And would Adam even understand what that meant?

That one definitely deserves some deconstruction, but for a different reason: Death, decay, and entropy is built into this universe. Did God change the whole nature of the universe because of something we did? Or just move us from a different universe that didn't have entropy built into it as punishment?

 

[St. SteVen]

There had to be a first one somewhere, sometime, right?

Maybe Adam was a clay pigeon?



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[Lambano]

I see that the Hebrew word is pronounced, "Aw, damn!"

And it's derived from the Hebrew word for "Dirt". How apropos.

 

[St. SteVen]

That one definitely deserves some deconstruction, but for a different reason: Death, decay, and entropy is built into this universe. Did God change the whole nature of the universe because of something we did? Or just move us from a different universe that didn't have entropy built into it as punishment?

Yes, great question.
I think it was spiritual death that came. Physical death was already present to some degree.

Adam and Eve were working the garden. (orchard) What work is there if there is no death?

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[Lambano]

Yes, great question.
I think it was spiritual death that came. Physical death was already present to some degree.

Adam and Eve were working the garden. (orchard) What work is there if there is no death?

/

Gardening is recreational work.

But I question the "spiritualizing" of death. One of the reasons is this one from Paul:

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. -Romans 8:18-22

It looks like the whole universe is going to get a make-over. Say what?

 

[St. SteVen]

But I question the "spiritualizing" of death.

As you should.
Your question about where death came from is good. IMHO
What do you make of this?

Romans 5:12 NIV
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

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