What becomes of our faith if the Genesis account is NOT literal?

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BarneyFife

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This is why I don't think Adam (whether real or mythical) understood the consequence of eating the forbidden fruit.
"... for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Say what?

And the commandment in the narrative was given before Eve was created. Adam informed (misinformed - "don't touch") Eve of the commandment. So, who did the serpent speak with? While Adam stood by and did nothing to stop it.

Genesis 2:16-18 KJV
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

I think it's a mistake to assume that the Bible includes a complete and exhaustive account of everything that occured adjacent to the fall.

It's also fairly clear that there's some overlap/disorder of chronology after the initial creation account.

Perhaps you're being a bit too literalist - lol.

.
 
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St. SteVen

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As you should.
Your question about where death came from is good. IMHO
What do you make of this?

Romans 5:12 NIV
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

]
Add this...
What kind of death?

Ephesians 2:1 NIV
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

]
 

St. SteVen

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Perhaps you're being a bit too literalist - lol.
Yes.
The question seems to be, how do we parse the Genesis narrative and align it with the New Testament narrative?

It seems that claiming that Moses didn't know any better is wrong to impose on a supposedly god-breathed text.

]
 
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St. SteVen

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Just off the top of my head, I'm not familiar with any such problem. :)
If Adam was not a real person, how does that play out?

Some say he wasn't a REAL person and that it isn't a REAL problem. - LOL

I have always believed that he was a REAL person and that his REAL sin put us in a REAL bad situation. (fallen) But Adam #2 (Jesus) corrected the situation by paying the REAL death penalty for Adam's REAL sin and our REAL sins.

In the scripture below, "... through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners..." (one man = Adam?) A REAL Adam?
And, "... through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." (one man = Christ) ???

Romans 5:19 NIV
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

/
 

Lizbeth

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This point causes me a massive amount of cognitive dissonance. (something most won't admit)
No that comes from trying to lean on your own understanding/intellect instead of seeking GOD for understanding....the natural man can't perceive the things of God because they are spiritually discerned.

Your carnal mind has you believing that God creates some people to be homosexual. Example...I saw a homosexual man in line at the store recently and what I discerned was a badly wounded and frightened soul. My heart went out to him and began to quietly pray for him. Homosexuality was his response to being wounded and afraid sometime in his childhood.....he believed a LIE that was suggested to him by the devil (serpent at the tree) in order to try and deal with heartbreaking circumstances. (Mankind is naturally rebellious and will do anything in his natural state except turn to the true source of help and comfort...we all fell ultimately due to being rebellious and going our own way.) And since it is true what the Bible says "as a man thinks in his heart so is he", believing a lie or believing truth changes things in the natural realm.

Why won't some people just believe God?...He knows so much better than we are capable of. Are they still being rebellious?
 
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Lambano

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Add this...
What kind of death?

Ephesians 2:1 NIV
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

]
Or, what is "dead" a metaphor or idiom for? Ah, the wonders of human language!

For that matter, is physical death at the same time also a living (or dying) metaphor for something else?

(Sorry, but when I hear the term "spiritual death", I think of a bunch of ghosts dressed in translucent black outfits gathered around a graveyard, their mournful cries wailing like banshees through the night.)

Hallowe%27en%2B2014%2B008%2Bghost%2Bs.jpg
 
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St. SteVen

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Or, what is "dead" a metaphor or idiom for?
But where does the metaphor end and the literal begin?

Ephesians 2:1-3 NIV
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world
and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is
now at work in those who are disobedient.
3 All of us also lived among them at one time,
gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following
its desires and thoughts. Like the rest,
we were by nature deserving of wrath.

]
 

BarneyFife

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If Adam was not a real person, how does that play out?

Some say he wasn't a REAL person and that it isn't a REAL problem. - LOL

I have always believed that he was a REAL person and that his REAL sin put us in a REAL bad situation. (fallen) But Adam #2 (Jesus) corrected the situation by paying the REAL death penalty for Adam's REAL sin and our REAL sins.

In the scripture below, "... through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners..." (one man = Adam?) A REAL Adam?
And, "... through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." (one man = Christ) ???

Romans 5:19 NIV
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

/

I think the difficulty arises from making too much of metaphors. The Adam of Genesis is real. The Adam of Romans 5 is metaphorical.

I honestly believe that confusion ensues from a (perhaps inadvertent) tendency of some folks to over-complicate things rather than to simplify them as much as possible.

But the optimization of simplification must adhere to the concept of a self-sacrificing, loving God rather than knee-jerk, scriptural ultra-literalism resulting from 'slippery slope' paranoia. It's not a tight rope easily walked—especially by those who practice a devotionless religion.

.
 
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Episkopos

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Alternatively:
- There is anecdotal evidence (and in some cases historical evidence) that faith in Christ can help us.
- And that a renewed relationship with the creator is possible. (assuming we were alienated prior)

Faith is a real thing. And reconciliation with God a very desirable thing. :)
But how can this be when church doctrine is a house of cards?
- Is a relationship with the creator of figment of our imagination? (wishful thinking?)

For many, yes, they follow other sheep who seem to know where they are going.
- Might we conjure up our own salvation to quell the fear of the unknown?

Religious certainty for many gives them peace of mind. Of course judgment day is coming and God will have His say on that.
It's enough to drive one mad. (as my British friends might say)
Or as the Brits say...it could make one throw a "wobbly". o_O
 
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ElieG12

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So we get to 2 Peter before we find out the "cyclical" (read: life-and-death) nature of pre-fall animals? That doesn't sound right—at all.

Death was never part of God's perfect creation.

I used to try to imagine how sin began. And, at one point, I had nearly decided that it was a product of the creative nature of God that existed in the heart (mind) of Lucifer. But I ultimately had to abandon that theory, because reverse engineering kind of implies that God would also be susceptible to a fall from His own grace.

We get into trouble when we start trying to figure out the secret things that belong to God.

Deuteronomy 29:29 — The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

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While you're inventing theories, we got the answers that the Bible gives:

Rom. 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 13 For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come.
18 So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous. 20 Now the Law came on the scene so that trespassing might increase. But where sin abounded, undeserved kindness abounded still more. 21 To what end? So that just as sin ruled as king with death, so also undeserved kindness might rule as king through righteousness leading to everlasting life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 

Wrangler

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The gospel and the New Testament narrative unravel when these things aren't literal.

- The geologies are meaningless. (or in serious error)
- Who wrote the Books of Moses? (and when)
- If Adam wasn't a literal human then he didn't literally sin.
- If Adam didn't literally sin, then there is no original sin.
- If there is no original sin then being born in Adam's race does not make you a sinner.
- If we are not redeemed from original sin by Christ's payment of the death penalty...
- Then the Atonement was of none effect.
- If the Atonement was of none effect, we are lost in our sin and awaiting judgment of our works.
- We all fall short of the perceived standard (the glory of God) and stand condemned.
- Faith in Christ can't help us, the Atonement is null and void. (as outlined above)
- Where does that leave us?
I always took the Creation narrative as anecdotal, which means you can pick up being redeemed by Christ's payment.

Last week I went to the Ark Encounter and Creation Museum in Kentucky. I now have doubts about the Creation narrative being anecdotal.
The founder, Ken Ham, has a 5 part book series called New Answers that I know you’ll be fascinated to know about.

I haven’t read your other email yet. Thumbing through the contents of Book 1 is the problem of distant star light. A Christian expert in the field writes the chapter. There is so much good stuff! It’s hard to succinctly state it. However, it is written in easy to understand terms. Addressing 2 parts …

1st, Einsteins Theory of Relativity shows that time is not a constant. While on Earth light from a star appears instantaneous, the photon would experience a different passage of time. This time is called “universal time.”

The author uses a concept laymen are familiar with, “local time.” If we flew to Colorado, we would land at the same time we took off - using Colorado local time. It would appear that the flight was instantaneous. To the passengers on the plane, the experience of time passing would be 2 hours.

He surmises that the Bible is written in Earth local time and not universal time.

2nd, The Big Bang has a time problem of its own called Horizon. They invent “inflation” with no evidence. Funny how only Christians need evidence to believe what the Bible says is true while nonbelievers conjecture is to be accepted at face value, by default.

Ken Ham asserts that if the first verse of the Bible is wrong, the rest of it is wrong. His life’s work powerfully shows how the Creation story, including the flood, has overwhelming evidence. In fact, it is not the evidence but the anti-Biblical paradigms, that go out of their way to adopt models contrary to the Bible and disregard evidence that are shown lacking!

One great example is the assumption that ice core samples have layers conjectured to correspond to years. A plane crashed in 1948 was discovered 50 years later under 250 feet of ice with thousands of ice core layers.

Another powerful example is Mt. Saint Helens eruption in 1980. In minutes, the volcano deposited many layers of sediment, proving the secular LONG TIME model wrong.

Secular scientists DO NOT FOLLOW THE EVIDENCE. What a great time to be a believer!
 
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St. SteVen

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I think the difficulty arises from making too much of metaphors. The Adam of Genesis is real. The Adam of Romans 5 is metaphorical.
At the risk of over-complicating things...
Whether the Adam in Genesis is real or not seems to be debatable.
And the Adam in Romans 5 is inferred. (not mentioned by name)

Who was the one man through whose disobedience the many were made sinners? (Adam?)
Was the disobedience metaphorical? Was the making of the many sinners metaphorical?
Will the solution to this problem be metaphorical?

Romans 5:19 NIV
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

]
 

St. SteVen

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Good post, thanks.
1st, Einsteins Theory of Relativity shows that time is not a constant. While on Earth light from a star appears instantaneous, the photon would experience a different passage of time. This time is called “universal time.”
The speed of sound, the speed of light, the speed of thought.
Interesting how long it takes to hear the thunder from the lightning you see.

The stars are light years away. It takes time for the light to arrive. Measured in light years.

Ken Ham asserts that if the first verse of the Bible is wrong, the rest of it is wrong.
That is basically the question this topic is asking.

]
 

BarneyFife

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At the risk of over-complicating things...
Whether the Adam in Genesis is real or not seems to be debatable

What then makes Christianity, in its entirety, exempt from debatability? (Sorry, but it was bound to come to this. :))

And the Adam in Romans 5 is inferred. (not mentioned by name) Who was the one man through whose disobedience the many were made sinners? (Adam?)

Is anyone really unclear as to whom Paul is referring here?

Btw, I've never been much of an "original sin" emphasizer. It happened, sure, but I'm never going to be held responsible for Adam's sin in the judgment.

Was the disobedience metaphorical? Was the making of the many sinners metaphorical?
Will the solution to this problem be metaphorical?

And, at this point, I think we might've gone just a bit past merely risking over-complication.

.