We’re the two witnesses from the past?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Your catching on, yes the second coming seen below takes place after a "Future" great tribulation
No, the Second Coming is not likened to AD70 asr the prophetic words convey. We have prophecies that teach the second coming of Christ...but for now lets stay on topic!

Pretty hard to have a 70AD tribulation as you claim, and a second coming of Jesus immediately after it, when we all know the Lord's return is future
Your eyes are blinded by all things future, that you cannot discern what applied to Israel at the time of Christ. You also fail to understand dual fulfillments of prophecy, however, you are unble to comprehend one, so I'm not going to show you two - imagine that :doldrums:
This one fact alone puts reformed eschatology's claims of 70AD fulfillment in the trash can

Daniel's AOD Matthew 24:15 is "Future" that will cause the Matthew 24:21 "Future" Great Tribulation, Jesus returns immediately after this "Future" Great Tribulation, and it didn't take place in 70AD Jerusalem
Out of interest 7, can you show us a prophecy that concerns AD70?

Just one would be nice.

:I know: please.
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
7,298
1,454
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Where do you get this word raptured from?

The Greek word for rapture is "harpazo".

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin word "rapio" meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin word “rapiemur” is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” when he translated 1 Thess 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. From “rapiemur” came the modern Englsih word "rapture".
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
For everyone else reading

In Daniel 8:13 "To give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?"

The word translated "sanctuary" in this verse is qodesh and signifies "holy". It is different from Miqdash, which is also translated as "sanctuary" but which means "temple".

The word qodesh can signify holy people, ground, place, city or thing (see Exod. 3:5; 22:31; 30:31; Josh. 5:15). The Lord cited a section of the verse and applied it to the destruction of the holy city, Jerusalem, in A.D. 70 (see Luke 21:24):

"Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles".

Now you will notice a difference in Revelation 11:2

"But the court which is without the temple"

Because truth7t7 has only eyes for all things future they have missed this finer detail .

Firstly, Rev 11:2 is not the Temple itself but the outer court.
Secondly, Rev 11:2 is not a literal Temple unlike the Holy Temple referred to in Daniel 8:13.

I doubt I will see acknowledgement of these facts but none the less there it is.

The fulfillment of Daniel 8:13 has already taken place - AD70
The fulfilment of Revelation 11:2 has already taken place - ?????

The question is how do you convey the reality of this to someone who believes both verses are speaking about the same event, all the while they are clearly unrelated?

Lets see if Truth7t7 can for the first time acknowledge they are not the same event.

No ground has been given at all over the past three pages.

F2F
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The Greek word for rapture is "harpazo".

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin word "rapio" meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin word “rapiemur” is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” when he translated 1 Thess 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. From “rapiemur” came the modern Englsih word "rapture".
Right, you mean "caught up" with the Lord.
And this is when?
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
11,973
3,759
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The fulfillment of Daniel 8:13 has already taken place - AD70
Your claim is "False"

The (Little Horn) seen in Daniel 7:8 is the very same (Little Horn) seen in Daniel 8:9 below, this future figure will tread Jerusalem under foot

This (Little Horn) will be present on this earth to witness the Lords second coming and his living body will be destroyed and given to the burning flame, "Future Events Unfulfilled"

Your belief and teachings that "Titus" fulfilled this figure in 66-70AD is laughable

(The Little Horn Will Be Present On Earth At The Second Coming)

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

(The Little Horn Below, Is The Same (Little Horn) Seen Above

Daniel 8:13KJV
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Your claim is "False"

The (Little Horn) seen in Daniel 7:8 is the very same (Little Horn) seen in Daniel 8:9 below, this future figure will tread Jerusalem under foot

This (Little Horn) will be present on this earth to witness the Lords second coming and his living body will be destroyed and given to the burning flame, "Future Events Unfulfilled"

Your belief and teachings that "Titus" fulfilled this figure in 66-70AD is laughable

(The Little Horn Will Be Present On Earth At The Second Coming)

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

(The Little Horn Below, Is The Same (Little Horn) Seen Above

Daniel 8:13KJV
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
You dont know what the littel horn is 7.
You are jumping all over the place.
You need to go back over our discussion and review the evidence provided.
Truth is there!
Also many anunswered questions sit on your side of the chat.
F2F
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
11,973
3,759
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You dont know what the littel horn is 7.
Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
It's clear you have nothing to offer but "everything is the same" and "all the same is future".
Go back and answer Rev 11 questions - you got a few things wrong there.
F2F
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Also, you are yet to show us an AD70 prophecy.
:watching and waiting:
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
11,973
3,759
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Also, you are yet to show us an AD70 prophecy.
:watching and waiting:
No 70AD prophecy exist in the Bible as you claim, Jerusalem will be trodden down of the gentiles in the future, the little horn is future, Daniel's AOD is future, the Great tribulation is future, the second coming is future

Reformed Historicism's claims of 70AD fulfillment is as valid as dispensationalism's pre-trib rapture, both aren't found in scripture
 
Last edited:

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
No 70AD prophecy exist in the Bible as you claim, Jerusalem will be trodden down of the gentiles in the future, the little horn is future, Daniel's AOD is future, the Great tribulation is future, the second coming is future
:no reply:
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
11,973
3,759
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@Truth7t7

Why the court which is without the temple? Rev 11:2

hmmx1:
You are grasping at straws in the wind, in desperate attempts to create two different events of Jerusalem being trodden down "Wrong"

You can't deal with the fact of Historicism's claim in a 70AD great tribulation, and Jesus returning immediately after this tribulation, we know well Jesus returns in a future event, yet you cling to man's fairy tales in reformed Historicism that opposes scripture
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
You are grasping at straws in the wind, in desperate attempts to create two different events of Jerusalem being trodden down "Wrong"

You can't deal with the fact of Historicism's claim in a 70AD great tribulation, and Jesus returning immediately after this tribulation, we know well Jesus returns in a future event, yet you cling to man's fairy tales in reformed Historicism that opposes scripture
Wiating for you to answer.

Why the court which is without the temple? Rev 11:2
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
You are grasping at straws in the wind, in desperate attempts to create two different events of Jerusalem being trodden down "Wrong"
No, I've already proven AD70 prophecy in abundance, and you presented your position as being void of understanding on the subject. Your "everything is future" exegesis has become rather boring to be honest - now I'm trying to see if the well is deep and by your last post its dry.
You can't deal with the fact of Historicism's claim in a 70AD great tribulation, and Jesus returning immediately after this tribulation, we know well Jesus returns in a future event, yet you cling to man's fairy tales in reformed Historicism that opposes scripture
After 30+ posts I am still waiting for you to admit Danial 2&7 is continuous historical.

You gave us your errror on AD70 - now its important to complete your error.

F2F
 
Last edited:

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
@Truth7t7

Lets continue our AD70 theme,

Romans 2:9 There will be trouble (tribulation) and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

Do you think Paul was right here? The Jew being first (AD70) to be in trouble and distress?

Do you think Peter also knew about this swift destruction?

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

I find it extremely odd for a believer to totally dismiss the judgements of AD70 - the removal of the priesthood and the Sanhedrin.

It's odd you deny the judgements of AD70 - I've never spoken to a Christian who believes as you do which is why I'm persisting otherwise I'd kick the dust off and move onto the next thread.

I actually find you rather intriguing.

F2F
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
8,243
1,202
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
@Truth7t7

Romans 9:28

For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Read the verse before and after this one! Context is King!

When did God "cut it short in righteousness"?

"Will the Lord make upon the earth"

This is quoted from Isa. 28:22, reference is particularly made to the Jewish "earth" (see Isa 1:2): the common society of Israel. The whole nation would be involved; none would be excluded from the divine judgment that would occur in AD70.

I'm teaching you now 7 - I'm showing you verses which speak to Daniels prophecies which were about to take place in Israel having crucified the Lord Jesus Christ.

Its a chilling section of Romans to study 7.

F2F
 

Marty fox

Well-Known Member
Jun 1, 2021
2,844
1,057
113
55
Vancouver
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
No 70AD prophecy exist in the Bible as you claim, Jerusalem will be trodden down of the gentiles in the future, the little horn is future, Daniel's AOD is future, the Great tribulation is future, the second coming is future

Reformed Historicism's claims of 70AD fulfillment is as valid as dispensationalism's pre-trib rapture, both aren't found in scripture

Really?

Luke 19
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
11,973
3,759
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Really?

Luke 19
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”
No 70AD seen there, keep looking its not found

The verses you quote are a parallel reading of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and these verses are speaking to a future generation that will witness the future abomination, great tribulation, and Jerusalem being trodden under foot

Pretty hard to have a book written "Luke" in 80-110AD speaking about a 70AD Jerusalem

Wikipedia: Gospel Of Luke
The most probable date for its composition is around AD 80–110
, and there is evidence that it was still being revised well into the 2nd century.

 
Last edited:

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
11,973
3,759
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@Truth7t7

Lets continue our AD70 theme,

Romans 2:9 There will be trouble (tribulation) and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

Do you think Paul was right here? The Jew being first (AD70) to be in trouble and distress?

Do you think Peter also knew about this swift destruction?

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

I find it extremely odd for a believer to totally dismiss the judgements of AD70 - the removal of the priesthood and the Sanhedrin.

It's odd you deny the judgements of AD70 - I've never spoken to a Christian who believes as you do which is why I'm persisting otherwise I'd kick the dust off and move onto the next thread.

I actually find you rather intriguing.

F2F
Your imagination is working overtime, no 70AD mentioned there