We’re the two witnesses from the past?

[Earburner]

No one said it was but it is mostly about future events.

Are you aware of the three manifestations of Jesus, through our perspective of time?
1. Spirit- in eternity past.
2. Mortal flesh- in time on earth.
3. Immortal flesh/Spirit- in eternity now/future.

The OT prophets were NOT aware of the three manifestations of Jesus, but they did speak words ABOUT all three of His manifestations!!

By the mind of Christ within you, have you been able to discern which of God's words, spoken through the OT Prophets, that apply to the three manifestations of Jesus??

 

[Earburner]

John died before Jesus, and both would be resurrected as immortals proving they cannot die and therefore cannot be either of the Rev 11 two prophets. Going to just ignore those facts forever?

You are assuming that the two witnesses haven't come yet, because by your mind of thinking, all the literal words have not been fulfilled yet. Therefore, by your perspective of time, you perceive chronologically, that the two witnesses MUST appear just before Jesus returns in Glory. However, the problem is, only God the Father knows precisely, of when to send Jesus to redeem His people.
From what I understand, Jesus has not returned in flaming fire yet, but He did appear as one of the "two witnesses", and indeed it was before "that great and dreadful Day".

As for the other witness, being John the Baptist, he fulfilled Malachi 4:5-6, as shown in Luke 1:16-17.
Malachi 4
[5] Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
[6] And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Luke 1
(The holy angel of the Lord said to Zacharias):
[16] And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
[17] And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Please notice that the prophecy of Malachi 4:5-6 was NOT fulfilled verbatim** in Luke 1:16-17.
See also John 1:19-23 of John's authority, of that which he was born to do and his testimony.

Is most all of Christianity calling the angel a liar?
Think it through WITH the mind of Christ, and not by the mind of your "natural man", or that of religious persuasion by "church-ianity".

** Note: the same holds true for the book of Revelation.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past from the bible like Mosses and Elijah because they appeared at the transfiguration or Enoch and Elijah because they didn’t die.

I believe that the two witnesses are symbolic for the law and the prophets which all pointed to Jesus. Jesus and Abraham confirms this in the verses below.

Luke 16:27-31
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Moses (who represented the Law) and the prophets all pointed to Jesus just like the two witnesses point to Jesus. In the verses above we see that the law and the prophets is all anyone especially the Jews need and will get to see who Jesus is. Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection in these scriptures but He also predicted that the Jewish nation will still reject Him even after His death and resurrection.

These scriptures also have a two fold meaning when Jesus says that they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

With a good book, I always say read the last part first!:-)

Revelation 1
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

The Old Testament and the New Testament. Or where I am from Witness Old and Witness New.

 

[ewq1938]

You are assuming that the two witnesses haven't come yet, because by your mind of thinking, all the literal words have not been fulfilled yet.

History is on my side not yours. No one has been killed by the AC, lay dead for 3.5 days then resurrect and ride into the air in front of their enemies.

 

[Earburner]

History is on my side not yours. No one has been killed by the AC, lay dead for 3.5 days then resurrect and ride into the air in front of their enemies.

There is no such thing as a singular, head honcho, one man band, miracle man coming, that church-ianity loves to call "THE" Antichrist. That view is typical of Pre-trib and/or Pre-mil thinking through "the wisdom of men". 1 Cor. ch. 2. (focus on verse 5).

"That spirit of antichrist" (plural) is a global influence of "lawlessness", ruling over and within "the natural man", aka "the man of sin", which is every person who is not "sealed" by the Holy Spirit of God.

BTW, as per the words of God's holy angel, John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy of one of the witnesses in Malachi 4:5-6, as shown in Luke 1:16-17.
Are you saying that the angel lied to John's father Zacharias?
You need to think this through of all that I have said thus far, and not run with the mob mentality of "church-ianity".

 

[Timtofly]

Mat. 25
[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

The word "Glory" is in reference to all of God’s born again people. Children are the glory of the parents.
Therefore, we also are children to God, who believe in Jesus, and have invited Him into our life. We are the very essence and place of His "throne room", dwelling within our very own being.
As the scripture says: 2 Cor.
[7] But we have this treasure [God Himself] in earthen vessels [our mortal bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The deepest desire of God the Father has always been for Him to FIRST dwell (sit) within Jesus, who was made to be flesh as "the living veil".
And then through Jesus, who dwells (sits) within us, BOTH He and God the Father, AS ONE, dwells (sits) within us all, who are born again. John 14:23.
Heb. 10
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Maybe this will help with the spiritual understanding:
Rev. 21[22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
We ourselves are "the throne of His Glory".

So then, who is sitting upon the "throne" of your heart/your self will?

So Jesus is not a literal human?

Was Jesus ever on the earth in the first century, or just sitting in people's bodies?

 

[Earburner]

So Jesus is not a literal human?

Was Jesus ever on the earth in the first century, or just sitting in people's bodies?

Jesus is both Immortal flesh and Eternal Spirit, and can interchange between both at will.
Did you forget about HOW Jesus appeared to the disciples in the upper room, when they were there with the door shut, for fear of the Jews?

 

[ewq1938]

There is no such thing as a singular, head honcho, one man band, miracle man coming, that church-ianity loves to call "THE" Antichrist.

Wrong.

BTW, as per the words of God's holy angel, John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy of one of the witnesses in Malachi 4:5-6, as shown in Luke 1:16-17.
Are you saying that the angel lied?

No, you are the wrong one. The only thing the bible says about the two witnesses is that theer are two candlesticks/churches AND two olive trees which would be the two prophets and they are not named but it cannot be any of the saints or Jesus that have resurrected because immortals cannot die, something you just ignore since it destroys your entire premise.

 

[Earburner]

Wrong.





No, you are the wrong one. The only thing the bible says about the two witnesses is that theer are two candlesticks/churches AND two olive trees which would be the two prophets and they are not named but it cannot be any of the saints or Jesus that have resurrected because immortals cannot die, something you just ignore since it destroys your entire premise.

So then, you do conclude that the angel LIED to John's father, Zacharias.
Wow! What some people won't say or do to defend and protect their false doctrines.
Sorry, your imaginations are far off course also.

 

[Earburner]

So Jesus is not a literal human?

Was Jesus ever on the earth in the first century, or just sitting in people's bodies?

I provided alot for you to digest in my post #446. Apparently you are a new Christian, who is still trying to take in milk, never mind chewing on the meat of His words.
Or, maybe it is "church-ianity" and the wisdom of men that has displaced the mind of Christ that is within you, aka His Holy Spirit.

 

[Earburner]

Wrong.





No, you are the wrong one. The only thing the bible says about the two witnesses is that theer are two candlesticks/churches AND two olive trees which would be the two prophets and they are not named but it cannot be any of the saints or Jesus that have resurrected because immortals cannot die, something you just ignore since it destroys your entire premise.

The time placement of past, present and future escapes you, when you are reading Revelation. There are three manifestations of Jesus. Not all of Revelation speaks only of His future Glorious return in His immortality.
At the moment, ever since Pentecost, we are nearing the end of His manifestation of #2. Please see my post #441 again.

 

[ewq1938]

The time placement of past, present and future escapes you, when you are reading Revelation. There are three manifestations of Jesus. Not all of Revelation speaks only of His future Glorious return in His immortality.
At the moment, ever since Pentecost, we are nearing the end of His manifestation of #2.

Still avoiding that immortals can't come back and be killed like the two prophets are in Rev 11.

 

[Earburner]

Wrong.





No, you are the wrong one. The only thing the bible says about the two witnesses is that theer are two candlesticks/churches AND two olive trees which would be the two prophets and they are not named but it cannot be any of the saints or Jesus that have resurrected because immortals cannot die, something you just ignore since it destroys your entire premise.

Through John the Baptist, God the Father witnessed who Jesus actually is.
Through Jesus, God the Father witnessed who He Himself actually is.
Try and think the depth of that, because Jesus explained it in Luke 10[22] All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

We all must learn how to read and digest the Bible from God's perspective and point of view, and not ours.

 

[Earburner]

Still avoiding that immortals can't come back and be killed like the two prophets are in Rev 11.

That is not the issue. The issue is WHEN DID the two witnesses appear, for when you find that, you will understand that THERE ARE NO MORE WITNESSES COMING, to witness Who the Son is and WHO the Father is!
Please see my edited post #453 again.

Edit (added for this post #454):
The two witnesses are the LORD God's anointed witnesses SENT BY HIM.
Zech. 14
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by [for] the LORD of the whole earth.

Both John and Jesus were SENT to us by the LORD Himself.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus is both Immortal flesh and Eternal Spirit, and can interchange between both at will.
Did you forget about HOW Jesus appeared to the disciples in the upper room, when they were there with the door shut, for fear of the Jews?

Not the point. The Holy Spirit dwells in us. The office of Jesus is being the physical manifestation of God on earth. That Jesus can walk through walls does not mean he changes his physical being. It just means he can change the physical attributes of the wall. Just like He changed the physical attributes of the water allowing Him to walk on the water. He also could control the weather. He could turn water into the wine of grapes. He could multiply a small amount of food and increase it substantially. All this is not changing His body, but creation itself. Jesus appeared to Abraham in His resurrection body with the nail prints and scar of the spear. Jesus wrestled with Jacob during the night. Jesus was not bound by time.

You are denying the point Jesus can return and set up a physical kingdom sitting on a physical throne. That is the only issue. Saying Jesus has multiple body types does not even make sense, nor is even scriptural.

I would say that Jesus was born from Mary with a soul, a body, and a spirit, unlike humans in dead corruptible flesh having only a soul and body. Jesus could not be seen in His full form. Only on the mount of Transfiguration did Jesus open their eyes to see what having on the spirit meant. All part of humanity's spiritual blindness. We are not supposed to see demons and spirits in our current state. But Paul says that is who we battle. Ephesians 6:12

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

 

[Timtofly]

So then, you do conclude that the angel LIED to John's father, Zacharias.
Wow! What some people won't say or do to defend and protect their false doctrines.
Sorry, your imaginations are far off course also.

The angel did not say John was Elijah.

"And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

John had the same calling as Elijah just like Elisha had. That does not make him one of the two witnesses. There were 4 witnesses. Elijah and Moses were two of them. Two more will be on earth during the 8th kingdom. Not Moses and Elijah because they represent the two olive trees. Seems logical that one would be the one who wrote the book of Revelation as he was the witness who went through it all. Jesus always had the 144k with Him wherever He went. No mention of them included in being killed as well. John was capable of referring to himself in the third person. John 13:23-25

"Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?"

Are not these arguments just you going out of your way to declare Revelation was already fulfilled in the first century?

Is not interpreting a verse full verbatim cheating in one's interpretation? How about taking verses out of context?

 

[Timtofly]

I provided alot for you to digest in my post #446. Apparently you are a new Christian, who is still trying to take in milk, never mind chewing on the meat of His words.
Or, maybe it is "church-ianity" and the wisdom of men that has displaced the mind of Christ that is within you, aka His Holy Spirit.

Just not into new age philosophy and mumbo jumbo, many preterist use to dance around Scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

That is not the issue.

It's an issue. Another bigger one is the two prophets (not the two witnesses) die at the same time, and resurrect at the same time and at the same time rise into heaven. John died years before Jesus, and Jesus has resurrected and rose into heaven alone, and John has not yet resurrected. Again,. NOTHING in Rev 11 supports your theories.

The two prophets are unknown at this time. They may or may not be alive now. It's possible we are not in the generation that sees them appear.

 

[Earburner]

Q)

Not the point. The Holy Spirit dwells in us. The office of Jesus is being the physical manifestation of God on earth. That Jesus can walk through walls does not mean he changes his physical being. It just means he can change the physical attributes of the wall. Just like He changed the physical attributes of the water allowing Him to walk on the water. He also could control the weather. He could turn water into the wine of grapes. He could multiply a small amount of food and increase it substantially. All this is not changing His body, but creation itself. Jesus appeared to Abraham in His resurrection body with the nail prints and scar of the spear. Jesus wrestled with Jacob during the night. Jesus was not bound by time.

You are denying the point Jesus can return and set up a physical kingdom sitting on a physical throne. That is the only issue. Saying Jesus has multiple body types does not even make sense, nor is even scriptural.

I would say that Jesus was born from Mary with a soul, a body, and a spirit, unlike humans in dead corruptible flesh having only a soul and body. Jesus could not be seen in His full form. Only on the mount of Transfiguration did Jesus open their eyes to see what having on the spirit meant. All part of humanity's spiritual blindness. We are not supposed to see demons and spirits in our current state. But Paul says that is who we battle. Ephesians 6:12

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Okay, I hear you. Only now are you starting to open up to speak of the reality of who Jesus actually is, and not that version of "Jesus in a box", manufactured by different religious brands of "church-ianity".

So now, since Jesus has bodily Ascended into Heaven, at the right hand of God the Father, WHAT has He been eating and drinking for the past 2023 years?
Ans. Absolutely nothing from this world!!

After Pentecost, In which form of His Being was Jesus, when He visited Paul on the Damascus road, and had a conversation with Paul?
Ans. Jesus was in His Holy Spirit form.

 

[face2face]

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. All we, who are Born again of God's Holy Spirit, have entered into the KoG, and are now "partakers of the divine nature", while we are still here, dragging around in this flesh and blood body of death.

This is a sad post, not because its false teaching; it's sad because of what the deception will bring upon you when/if the truth is revealed in the day of his coming.

Read John 20 and see how the disciples carefully handled Christ and his new body. When sin's flesh was crucified, like all God's children the Life that was with the Father, is that same Life which He gave His son, he will also give you if you believe correctly.

Read and study 1John 1 to read about the Eternal Life and how Christ was the first recipient of that Life.

Immortality is the quality "put on" or "clothed upon" us and Eternal life is the quantity.

You are 100% mortal.

F2F