Upcoming Holy Days

[Pilgrimer]

Yeshua fulfilled the sacrifices of those days, but not everything that pertains to them. The Jubilee trumpet is yet to be blown and Yeshua's blood as the Passover Lamb provides ongoing protection from death.

But the sacrifices is not all Jesus fulfilled. And I remind you again, Jesus said not one jot or tittle would pass away until all was fulfilled. So have any jots and tittles passed away?

I understand that your interpretation of what the feasts symbolized is why you insist that there are some things that have not yet been fulfilled, but your interpretation isn’t based on any actual Biblical symbolism (Trumpets are not associated with resurrection in the Old Testament), nor is it based on the doctrines of the Gospel (the liberation from the slavery to sin and being joined with the household of God wasn’t about bodily resurrection), nor was Tabernacles about entering the promised land and dwelling in permanent homes, so what are you basing your interpretation on?

You neglect the words "to come". You say "were" and Paul says "are" "to come".

As I said before, I don’t think doctrine should be based on parsing a single word, but nevertheless, this Greek word translated “to come” is μελλόντων and Paul uses that same exact word here:

“For the Law, having a shadow of good things to come (μελλόντων), and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices …”

Clearly Paul is using the same word translated “to come” to refer to the fulfillment of the Law in respect to sacrifices, but you cannot argue that the use of that word translated “to come” means Jesus had not yet fulfilled the sacrifices. So that use of the word "to come" in respect to holy days does not mean Jesus had not fulfilled them.

And again:

“By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come (μελλόντων) …”

Clearly Paul was saying these events were shadows of things to come not because they were future from the time Paul wrote them, but that they were future from the time they happened. The Law had a shadow of good things to come one day when Messiah would come and fulfill them. The holy days in Paul’s day were in the same way shadows of things to come that Christ was the fulfillment of (“but the body is of Christ”).

You just got done saying we can't celebrate Passover without the Passover.

You can’t celebrate the Old Covenant Passover without the Old Covenant Passover lamb because that lamb was literally the Passover of the Old Covenant feast. That’s the point I have been trying to make.

We celebrate the New Covenant Passover by “feasting” on the lamb of the New Covenant Passover, which is Jesus.

Now you say we can since the believers in Acts did so. If there is a New Covenant Passover, then there is a NC Feast of Unleavened Bread, Shavuot, Yom Teruah, etc.

Yes. That’s what I have been trying to say, in my fumbling and bumbling way. There is a New Covenant Passover Feast, a New Covenant Unleavened Bread Feast, a New Covenant Pentecost, a New Covenant Feast of Trumpets, a New Covenant Day of Atonement, and a New Covenant Feast of Tabernacles. All of the Old Covenant holy days were all shadows, but “the body” of these holy days is Jesus.

It wasn’t just the Passover lamb and the red heifer and the goat for Jehovah that were sacrifices that Jesus fulfilled. The “corban chagigah” (which literally means festival offerings) were the various sacrifices (bloody) and offerings (non-bloody=Biccurim and Terumoth) as well as the oblations (drink-offerings), they were all commanded to be offered during the feasts, and they were all sacrifices that Jesus fulfilled and each has something to teach us about what his sacrifice means for us. Like the Unleavened Bread. That’s the bread which he took on that last Passover and he broke it and gave it to his disciples and told them to take and eat it, that it was his body, his sinless body, that was broken for them. But it wasn't just the unleavened bread eaten during the seven days of Passover that were unleavened. The shewbread (the twelve loaves of the “bread of His presence”) that were renewed every Sabbath in the Temple and was called the “perpetual bread,” that represented the body of Jesus was also unleavened. And when the bread was renewed on the Sabbath, the previous week’s bread was distributed among the priests and it was eaten at the “Lord’s Table,” the communal tables where the priests serving in the Temple ate their meals, all of which was prepared from the portions of the sacrifices and offerings and oblations that God in His Law had set aside for the priest’s use as they ministered in His Temple. These bread offerings were unleavened and portions made up part of the feasts that the people ate of along with portions of the bloody sacrifices (animals) as well as portions of the oblations (drink offerings of wine and water).

These sacrifices and offerings and oblations were not just for atonement and deliverance from sin, but they are also how the people rejoiced (peace-offerings) and how they gave thanks (thank-offerings). And Jesus fulfilled them all and under the New Covenant they find their ultimate meaning in the body and blood of Jesus. All of them.

Now you are telling the Prophets have passed away as well??

In the sense that they have all been fulfilled, yes.

There you go again putting words in my mouth. I NEVER said doing the Law perfects us.

Not in those words, no. But you said Jesus brings us back to the Law so that we can avoid sin by obeying the Law. If the Law couldn’t save you from sin it can’t keep you from sin. If it was faith that saved you from sin it is faith that can keep you from sin.

And your statements are so long and drawn out that is tedious to read them.

Yes, well, studying how all the jots and tittles of the Law foreshadowed the person and work of Jesus can be rather painstakingly tedious labor, but for me it’s a labor of love and the fruits make it very worthwhile. “Blessed is that student of the Law who is instructed in the things of the Kingdom of God …”

I meant, "no more Law to obey".

But that’s not true. There is still a Law, and it can still be "obeyed" in part. Unfortunately, many people think that keeping the Law, or as much of it as they deem possible or required, makes them “obedient.” So there is still a law, and many people try to be obedient to God by obeying the Law, or some portion of it. But the point is, we are no longer subject to the Law, we are now subject to the Spirit which works inside of us to change us into new creatures.

Believers still sin. The Law gives us the knowledge of those sins. The Holy Spirit does as well, but not if we have been taught a certain law no longer needs to be obeyed. If, for example, you were falsely taught working on the 7th day is now permissible, you will not believe the Spirit when it tells you it is not permissible.

But it is the Spirit who spoke to me through the Word and taught me what that 7th day rest meant and how it pointed to the Day of Salvation. I shared that with you, and you agreed that “Messiah's work was finished and he entered into the ultimate Sabbath rest.” If Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice and that means we no longer have to practice Old Covenant sacrifice keeping, then wouldn’t Jesus being the “ultimate Sabbath rest” mean we no longer have to practice Old Covenant Sabbath keeping?

That’s what Paul teaches. “For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. For the word of God is alive, powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing sunder or soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

That is where sin begins, in the thoughts and intents of our heart. And that includes adultery. We are no longer subject to the commandment to not commit adultery because we are subject to the Spirit of God who searches out and purges our hearts and minds of the lust that leads to adultery. By being obedient to the spirit, we are free from the law because we are subject to something even greater than the Law … God Himself.

But if the things I am sharing are so boring, you don’t have to respond. I just assume by your presence on a public forum posting on the subject of “holy days,” that you find discussion of all the jots and tittles and nuances of meaning of these things to be as much a labor of love as I do.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Then what did he say in Colossians 2:17?

Are you saying Paul wrote in 'Colossians 2:17', "'the feasts "are shadows of things to come'"? Then quote me Paul, not gadar perets.

This is what Paul wrote,

"Don't you let yourselves be judged by anyone in regard to your eating and drinking of Christ the Substance of Sabbaths' Feast either Lord's Supper of month's or of weekly Sabbaths' Feast, which are but the shadow of what imminently must come for you holding to the Head, the Body growing with the growth of God Christ being the Nourishment ministered."

 

[gadar perets]

But the sacrifices is not all Jesus fulfilled. And I remind you again, Jesus said not one jot or tittle would pass away until all was fulfilled. So have any jots and tittles passed away?

I understand that your interpretation of what the feasts symbolized is why you insist that there are some things that have not yet been fulfilled, but your interpretation isn’t based on any actual Biblical symbolism (Trumpets are not associated with resurrection in the Old Testament), nor is it based on the doctrines of the Gospel (the liberation from the slavery to sin and being joined with the household of God wasn’t about bodily resurrection), nor was Tabernacles about entering the promised land and dwelling in permanent homes, so what are you basing your interpretation on?

The Biblical symbolism of trumpets is fulfilled on Yom Teruah when the 7 trumpets of Revelation signaling YHWH's war with the wicked begins the Day of YHWH. The Jubilee is associated with the resurrection and is announced by the Jubilee trumpet sounding.

As I said before, I don’t think doctrine should be based on parsing a single word, but nevertheless, this Greek word translated “to come” is μελλόντων and Paul uses that same exact word here:

“For the Law, having a shadow of good things to come (μελλόντων), and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices …”

Clearly Paul is using the same word translated “to come” to refer to the fulfillment of the Law in respect to sacrifices, but you cannot argue that the use of that word translated “to come” means Jesus had not yet fulfilled the sacrifices. So that use of the word "to come" in respect to holy days does not mean Jesus had not fulfilled them.

And again:

“By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come (μελλόντων) …”

Clearly Paul was saying these events were shadows of things to come not because they were future from the time Paul wrote them, but that they were future from the time they happened. The Law had a shadow of good things to come one day when Messiah would come and fulfill them. The holy days in Paul’s day were in the same way shadows of things to come that Christ was the fulfillment of (“but the body is of Christ”).

In both of these passages Paul is using past events as his reference point. In Hebrews 10:1 the reference point is animal sacrifices. While they were being offered, they were shadows of things to come. In Hebrews 11:20, the reference point is Isaac blessing Jacob and Esau. When that event took place there were things to come in their future which would fulfill the blessings. However, in Colossians 2:17, the reference point is Paul's day and the fulfillment was to come in his future, not his past.

You can’t celebrate the Old Covenant Passover without the Old Covenant Passover lamb because that lamb was literally the Passover of the Old Covenant feast. That’s the point I have been trying to make.

Sure I can. I have been doing it for 32 years.

Yes. That’s what I have been trying to say, in my fumbling and bumbling way. There is a New Covenant Passover Feast, a New Covenant Unleavened Bread Feast, a New Covenant Pentecost, a New Covenant Feast of Trumpets, a New Covenant Day of Atonement, and a New Covenant Feast of Tabernacles. All of the Old Covenant holy days were all shadows, but “the body” of these holy days is Jesus.

"The body" of Colossians 2:17 refers to the "Body of Messiah" (the believers), not to Yeshua. We are not to let any man outside the Body judge us concerning the things in verse 16. Only those within the Body can judge in such matters.

It wasn’t just the Passover lamb and the red heifer and the goat for Jehovah that were sacrifices that Jesus fulfilled. The “corban chagigah” (which literally means festival offerings) were the various sacrifices (bloody) and offerings (non-bloody=Biccurim and Terumoth) as well as the oblations (drink-offerings), they were all commanded to be offered during the feasts, and they were all sacrifices that Jesus fulfilled and each has something to teach us about what his sacrifice means for us. Like the Unleavened Bread. That’s the bread which he took on that last Passover and he broke it and gave it to his disciples and told them to take and eat it, that it was his body, his sinless body, that was broken for them. But it wasn't just the unleavened bread eaten during the seven days of Passover that were unleavened. The shewbread (the twelve loaves of the “bread of His presence”) that were renewed every Sabbath in the Temple and was called the “perpetual bread,” that represented the body of Jesus was also unleavened. And when the bread was renewed on the Sabbath, the previous week’s bread was distributed among the priests and it was eaten at the “Lord’s Table,” the communal tables where the priests serving in the Temple ate their meals, all of which was prepared from the portions of the sacrifices and offerings and oblations that God in His Law had set aside for the priest’s use as they ministered in His Temple. These bread offerings were unleavened and portions made up part of the feasts that the people ate of along with portions of the bloody sacrifices (animals) as well as portions of the oblations (drink offerings of wine and water).

These sacrifices and offerings and oblations were not just for atonement and deliverance from sin, but they are also how the people rejoiced (peace-offerings) and how they gave thanks (thank-offerings). And Jesus fulfilled them all and under the New Covenant they find their ultimate meaning in the body and blood of Jesus. All of them.

I agree he fulfilled the sacrifices and offerings, but he did NOT fulfill the believers putting leaven out of their lives throughout their lives. He did not fulfill the two wave loaves baked with leaven on Shavuot. He did not fulfill the call to war of Yom Teruah. He did not fulfill the ultimate Jubilee yet. He did not fulfill the rejoicing over the harvest of souls being complete.

In the sense that they have all been fulfilled, yes.

For you to say the prophets have passed away because they have all been fulfilled is absolutely absurd. You lessen your credibility with such statements. Do you actually believe the prophecies of his second coming have been fulfilled?

 

[gadar perets]

Are you saying Paul wrote in 'Colossians 2:17', "'the feasts "are shadows of things to come'"? Then quote me Paul, not gadar perets.

This is what Paul wrote,

"Don't you let yourselves be judged by anyone in regard to your eating and drinking of Christ the Substance of Sabbaths' Feast either Lord's Supper of month's or of weekly Sabbaths' Feast, which are but the shadow of what imminently must come for you holding to the Head, the Body growing with the growth of God Christ being the Nourishment ministered."

This is the record we have of what Paul wrote;

Col2:17 which are a shadow of things to come;
‹17› ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν µελλόντων,
17 ha estin skia ton mellonton,
​

What you have given us is one of the worst cases I have ever seen of adding your own words to the text.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

This is the record we have of what Paul wrote;

Col2:17 which are a shadow of things to come;
‹17› ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν µελλόντων,
17 ha estin skia ton mellonton,
What you have given us is one of the worst cases I have ever seen of adding your own words to the text.

No sir, I added nothing; you did! You added your own words "'the feasts'" to the Text "which are a shadow of things to come".

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

"The body" of Colossians 2:17 refers to the "Body of Messiah" (the believers), not to Yeshua.

Wrong.
"The body" of Colossians 2:17 refers to "The Substance / Essence" which /who "is" Genitive Subject, not of "'the "Body of Messiah"'" or, of "'the believers'", but, of "that thing(s) which is/are imminent" namely: "CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE ... 19 NOURISHMENT ministered (so that) all the body (church of True, "Sabbaths-feasting" Believers) grow(s) with the growth of God."

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Clearly Paul was saying these events were shadows of things to come not because they were future from the time Paul wrote them, but that they were future from the time they happened.

Wrong.
Paul didn't say "'these events'"; he wrote "these things" - 'ha'.

And Paul didn't say they "were shadows of things to come" "'because they were future from the time they happened'", but just the opposite, "'because they were future from the time Paul wrote them'".

Therefore WHAT WAS / WERE "THESE THINGS" at the time Paul wrote about them here in Colossians? They were "your EATING AND DRINKING of Sabbaths' Feast of Christ The Substance" even "your eating and drinking (feasting) Sabbaths' Feast of CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE : over / pertaining / regarding which eating-and-drinking-Feast-of-Christ-the-Nourishment, you must not let yourselves be judged by anyone!"

 

[Pilgrimer]

The Biblical symbolism of trumpets is filfilled on Yom Teruah when the 7 trumpets of Revelation signaling YHWH's war with the wicked begins the Day of YHWH.

I agree that trumpets symbolized an alarm of coming destruction but not the destruction of the world, but the destruction of the Old Covenant kingdom. That “shaking” and “removing” that Paul talks about in Hebrews and I commented on in the other forum. Don’t you think perhaps there might have been some strong types and shadows in the Law and Prophets that foretold that important event? The complete destruction of the Old Covenant system and the Jewish state surely deserved at least a toot or two.

The Jubilee is associated with the resurrection and is announced by the Jubilee trumpet sounding.

Okay, what if I give you that (even though you have yet to actually point to a single instance where either Trumpets or Jubilee is associated with resurrection), but let’s say I give you that, wouldn’t it be more likely that the resurrection they are associated with at the beginning of God’s Heavenly Kingdom replacing the earthly kingdom signaled the spiritual resurrection that is the gift of salvation, which is also the harvest of the Gospel?

In both of these passages Paul is using past events as his reference point … However, in Colossians 2:17, the reference point is Paul's day and the fulfillment was to come in his future, not his past.

I think you missed the point:

“For the law having a shadow of good things to come …”

“Which are a shadow of things to come …”

The problem is you agree that “to come” in the first instance, when it is used in reference to the sacrifices, doesn’t mean they were still future and had not been fulfilled, but in the second instance, when used in reference to the holy days, that exact same word means they were future and had not been fulfilled.

The point being that this verse does not say that the holy days had not yet been fulfilled. It simply says the holy days we read about in the Law are shadows of things that would afterward be fulfilled, just as the sacrifices we read about in the Law are shadows of things that would afterward be fulfilled.

They were fulfilled, and after they were all fulfilled they passed away.

I said: You can’t celebrate the Old Covenant Passover without the Old Covenant Passover lamb because that lamb was literally the Passover of the Old Covenant feast. That’s the point I have been trying to make.

Sure I can. I have been doing it for 32 years.

I don't believe you have. The Passover was not a feast. The Passover was a sacrifice. That sacrifice was observed (the lambs were sacrificed) on the evening of the 14th Nisan and that sacrifice (the lambs that were sacrificed) was eaten on the first night of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the beginning of the 15th Nisan. Thus, you may be celebrating the Feast of Unleavened Bread by eating unleavened bread, but you cannot observe the Passover sacrifice, nor can you eat of the Passover on the first night of Unleavened Bread. Thus, without that Old Covenant sacrifice, you have no Old Covenant Passover.

I agree he fulfilled the sacrifices and offerings, but he did NOT fulfill the believers putting leaven out of their lives throughout their lives.

That searching their houses by the light of candles to gather up and dispose of all the leaven and then eating unleavened bread was also a shadow. In the passage where Paul teaches us that Christ is our Passover, he says we should keep the New Covenant feast “not with old leaven” (literal leaven that was searched out and gathered up and disposed of) nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but we are to keep the New Covenant Passover with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth (not with literal unleavened bread). But the most meaningful image the Word paints of the houses where the people dwelled being cleansed of leaven is in the Gospel idea of the light of God searching our hearts and minds and cleansing us of sinful desires and intentions and making us a new lump, more of that "blood of sprinkling that purges the conscience" Paul taught us about.

It really comes back time and time again to the truth that it is in fact God who works in us that makes us into what He would have us to be, not anything we do ourselves, except perhaps for our being willing to study and pray and submit ourselves to the Spirit that works in us.

He did not fulfill the two wave loaves baked with leaven on Shavuot.

But by your own reckoning the two wave-loaves represent the soul harvest of the nations by the preaching of the Gospel, which actually began during New Testament times and continues to this day.

He did not fulfill the call to war of Yom Teruah.

He did if that was the sounding of the alarm to Israel that destruction was approaching (blow the trumpet in Zion, sound an alarm in my holy mountain).

He did not fulfill the ultimate Jubilee yet.

He did if the ultimate Jubilee is being saved from captivity of sin and imprisonment in darkness and being restored to our Heavenly Father.

“The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings to the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord …” (Isaiah 61:1-2, Luke 4:18-19)

What more ultimate fulfillment of Jubilee can there be?

He did not fulfill the rejoicing over the harvest of souls being complete.

He did if the rejoicing was over the harvest of the nation of Israel which was complete before the vintage at the end of the year.

For you to say the prophets have passed away because they have all been fulfilled is absolutely absurd.

I didn’t say they passed away because they have been fulfilled, I said they have passed away in the sense that they have been fulfilled and therefore there is no future fulfillment.

Do you actually believe the prophecies of his second coming have been fulfilled?

No, I don’t believe Jesus’ second coming has happened yet, but I also don’t believe the Old Testament prophets spoke of Jesus’ 2nd coming. They spoke of his first coming and the blessings of that Heavenly Kingdom he spent 3 ½ years teaching about that we must be born again/spiritually raised to even see let alone enter. But they also spoke of the final judgment and terrible destruction against a generation upon whose heads would be required all the righteous blood shed since the beginning of time that would bring to an end the Old Covenant system and institute a new government and new kingdom.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

We celebrate the New Covenant Passover by “feasting” on the lamb of the New Covenant Passover, which is Jesus.

Praise God!
We celebrate the New and Eternal, only Covenant of God's Grace Passover, “feasting, eating and drinking of Christ The Substance” and "Lamb of God", "our Passover" which is Jesus Christ "ministered, us holding to the Head, He the Nourishment being ministered, all the Body (of Christ’s Own 1:18) by joints and bands [of faith 2:12 Hosea 11:4; peace Ephesians 4:3; and charity Colossians 3:14], knit together (in love 2:2), growing with the growth of God" : "WHICH IS / ARE THE THING(S) IMMINENT" FOR "THE BODY (CHURCH) OF CHRIST'S OWN". Sela. We thank You, o Saviour Lord and Christ! Now let me rest the pilgrim's Rest in You and sleep in peace and hope unto the Resurrection of Life. Amen.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

You can’t celebrate the Old Covenant Passover without the Old Covenant Passover lamb because that lamb was literally the Passover of the Old Covenant feast. That’s the point I have been trying to make.

We celebrate the New Covenant Passover by “feasting” on the lamb of the New Covenant Passover, which is Jesus.

Absolutely!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

gadar perets said: ↑
Now you say we can since the believers in Acts did so. If there is a New Covenant Passover, then there is a NC Feast of Unleavened Bread, Shavuot, Yom Teruah, etc.
Pilgrimer
Yes. That’s what I have been trying to say, in my fumbling and bumbling way. There is a New Covenant Passover Feast, a New Covenant Unleavened Bread Feast, a New Covenant Pentecost, a New Covenant Feast of Trumpets, a New Covenant Day of Atonement, and a New Covenant Feast of Tabernacles. All of the Old Covenant holy days were all shadows, but “the body” of these holy days is Jesus.

Wonderful; thank you, THIS IS TRUTH AT LAST; THANK GOD!
This is what I have been trying to tell in my own bombastic, undiplomatic way, unfortunately, halve the decades of my life.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Gadar Perets:↑
Believers still sin. The Law gives us the knowledge of those sins. The Holy Spirit does as well, but not if we have been taught a certain law no longer needs to be obeyed. If, for example, you were falsely taught working on the 7th day is now permissible, you will not believe the Spirit when it tells you it is not permissible.

Pilgrimer:
But it is the Spirit who spoke to me through the Word and taught me what that 7th day rest meant and how it pointed to the Day of Salvation. I shared that with you, and you agreed that “Messiah's work was finished and he entered into the ultimate Sabbath rest.” If Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice and that means we no longer have to practice Old Covenant sacrifice keeping, then wouldn’t Jesus being the “ultimate Sabbath rest” mean we no longer have to practice Old Covenant Sabbath keeping?

That’s what Paul teaches. “For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. For the word of God is alive, powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing sunder or soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

That is where sin begins, in the thoughts and intents of our heart. And that includes adultery. We are no longer subject to the commandment to not commit adultery because we are subject to the Spirit of God who searches out and purges our hearts and minds of the lust that leads to adultery. By being obedient to the spirit, we are free from the law because we are subject to something even greater than the Law … God Himself.

Now you have lost it, Pilgrimer! And you know it because the only thing you want to get right with this kind of thinking of yours, IS TO RID YOURSELF OF THE "SABBATH-REST-DAY remaining valid for the People of God" the New Testament and New Covenant Church of God. Don't fool yourself, God is not fooled.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The majority of commandments have no fulfillment that leads to them passing away. Only those that were shadows or prophetic have fulfillments. For example, Thou shalt not commit adultery has no fulfillment. Neither do any of the other nine. The two greatest have no fulfillment. They were fulfilled in the sense that Yeshua kept them perfectly, but not to the point of them passing away.

I think this is the crux of your misunderstanding what 'fulfilment' means. If only you could come to see that the Risen Christ, "JESUS" who "gave them Rest", is the point as it were the black hole, into which ALL the Law disappears so that The Person of Christ Jesus IS ALL THAT REMAINS FOR THE LAW OF : GOD! Christ is The Only that "remains" for and in the place of even the "'two greatest commandments'".

So this point also proves the Pilgrimer's argument of his own "'spirit in me'" against the Sabbath of the Lord God, is nothing than feeble and pitiable excuse for SELF JUSTIFICATION AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. Because, rose Jesus not from the dead "on the Sabbath" IN ACCORDANCE WITH its prophetic Christ-Event in Resurrection from the dead "ON the Sabbath", "IN" it and "WHILE Sabbath's-time being-in-the-mid-afternoon as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week", Pilgrimer would have had his way and there would have been no Sabbath or Sabbath-Law/ Commandment of the Lord; but you also, would not have had a "Sabbath Rest Day" left; nor would the Church Body of Christ.

 

[gadar perets]

No sir, I added nothing; you did! You added your own words "'the feasts'" to the Text "which are a shadow of things to come".

I did no such thing. You INCLUDED my words "the feasts" into Paul's words. I only put quotes around "are shadows of things to come" and you added my words into his words. Very deceptive and falsely accusative.

 

[gadar perets]

Wrong.
"The body" of Colossians 2:17 refers to "The Substance / Essence" which /who "is" Genitive Subject, not of "'the "Body of Messiah"'" or, of "'the believers'", but, of "that thing(s) which is/are imminent" namely: "CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE ... 19 NOURISHMENT ministered (so that) all the body (church of True, "Sabbaths-feasting" Believers) grow(s) with the growth of God."

So here you erroneously refute my belief that the "body" of verse 17 means "believers" by saying it refers to "CHRIST", but then in post #129, you write, "We celebrate the New and Eternal, only Covenant of God's Grace Passover, “feasting, eating and drinking of Christ The Substance” and "Lamb of God", "our Passover" which is Jesus Christ "ministered, us holding to the Head, He the Nourishment being ministered, all the Body (of Christ’s Own 1:18) by joints and bands [of faith 2:12 Hosea 11:4; peace Ephesians 4:3; and charity Colossians 3:14], knit together (in love 2:2), growing with the growth of God" : "WHICH IS / ARE THE THING(S) IMMINENT" FOR "THE BODY (CHURCH) OF CHRIST'S OWN" showing the "body" of verse 17 means ""CHURCH". You are a very confused man.

 

[gadar perets]

So this point also proves the Pilgrimer's argument of his own "'spirit in me'" against the Sabbath of the Lord God, is nothing than feeble and pitiable excuse for SELF JUSTIFICATION AND RIGHTEOUSNESS.

FYI - Pilgrimer is a female.

 

[gadar perets]

Okay, what if I give you that (even though you have yet to actually point to a single instance where either Trumpets or Jubilee is associated with resurrection), but let’s say I give you that, wouldn’t it be more likely that the resurrection they are associated with at the beginning of God’s Heavenly Kingdom replacing the earthly kingdom signaled the spiritual resurrection that is the gift of salvation, which is also the harvest of the Gospel?

God's Heavenly Kingdom will literally replace all earthly kingdoms at Messiah's second coming. That is when the dead in Messiah will literally be resurrected.

I think you missed the point:

“For the law having a shadow of good things to come …”

“Which are a shadow of things to come …”

The problem is you agree that “to come” in the first instance, when it is used in reference to the sacrifices, doesn’t mean they were still future and had not been fulfilled, but in the second instance, when used in reference to the holy days, that exact same word means they were future and had not been fulfilled.

The point being that this verse does not say that the holy days had not yet been fulfilled. It simply says the holy days we read about in the Law are shadows of things that would afterward be fulfilled, just as the sacrifices we read about in the Law are shadows of things that would afterward be fulfilled.

They were fulfilled, and after they were all fulfilled they passed away.

I said: You can’t celebrate the Old Covenant Passover without the Old Covenant Passover lamb because that lamb was literally the Passover of the Old Covenant feast. That’s the point I have been trying to make.

I didn't miss the point. You missed my point about the reference point/perspective. In Colossians 2, Paul used the word "ARE" in relation to his day, but in Hebrews the writer used "HAVING" which puts the time element in the days when sacrifices were still be offered.

I don't believe you have. The Passover was not a feast. The Passover was a sacrifice. That sacrifice was observed (the lambs were sacrificed) on the evening of the 14th Nisan and that sacrifice (the lambs that were sacrificed) was eaten on the first night of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the beginning of the 15th Nisan. Thus, you may be celebrating the Feast of Unleavened Bread by eating unleavened bread, but you cannot observe the Passover sacrifice, nor can you eat of the Passover on the first night of Unleavened Bread. Thus, without that Old Covenant sacrifice, you have no Old Covenant Passover.

Ezekiel said Passover is a feast of seven days (Ezekiel 45:21). Passover can refer to the sacrificed lamb or the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Our congregation has the Master's Supper on the evening of Abib 14 and the remembrance of the Passover/Exodus account on the evening of Abib 15. On both days we teach about how Yeshua fulfilled the Passover sacrifice. It is a celebration of the Passover from a NC perspective.

That searching their houses by the light of candles to gather up and dispose of all the leaven and then eating unleavened bread was also a shadow. In the passage where Paul teaches us that Christ is our Passover, he says we should keep the New Covenant feast “not with old leaven” (literal leaven that was searched out and gathered up and disposed of) nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but we are to keep the New Covenant Passover with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth (not with literal unleavened bread). But the most meaningful image the Word paints of the houses where the people dwelled being cleansed of leaven is in the Gospel idea of the light of God searching our hearts and minds and cleansing us of sinful desires and intentions and making us a new lump, more of that "blood of sprinkling that purges the conscience" Paul taught us about.

The fact that YHWH is always "searching our hearts and minds and cleansing us of sinful desires and intentions and making us a new lump" shows that putting away leaven is an ongoing unfulfilled shadow. The unleavening of our lives is a lifelong process and ridding our homes of literal leaven teaches us to continue doing that concerning our lives. You want to do away with the shadow before you are unleavened. We will literally be unleavened at our literal resurrection.

But by your own reckoning the two wave-loaves represent the soul harvest of the nations by the preaching of the Gospel, which actually began during New Testament times and continues to this day.

I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion, but that is not my own reckoning. The two wave loaves refer to the two groups of 144,000 believers that will be resurrected and ascend to heaven as the firstfruits of the wheat harvest.

“The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings to the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord …” (Isaiah 61:1-2, Luke 4:18-19)

What more ultimate fulfillment of Jubilee can there be?

This refers to a spiritual fulfillment of the captives of sin being set free from death row. However, a literal fulfillment is yet to come when those imprisoned by sin and death are set free from their graves.

I didn’t say they passed away because they have been fulfilled, I said they have passed away in the sense that they have been fulfilled and therefore there is no future fulfillment.

I don't see the difference.

No, I don’t believe Jesus’ second coming has happened yet, but I also don’t believe the Old Testament prophets spoke of Jesus’ 2nd coming.

How about Zechariah 14:4 and Micah 5:2-4?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I did no such thing. You INCLUDED my words "the feasts" into Paul's words. I only put quotes around "are shadows of things to come" and you added my words into his words. Very deceptive and falsely accusative.

In post 117, here is what at this moment is STILL standing there, WHAT YOU SAID in answer to Pilgrimer:
Quote: ↑ Pilgrimer: Okay, now don’t go the other extreme and insist on another rule that the shadow and the reality could not exist at the same time or that because the shadows still existed at the time Paul wrote his letter means they had not been fulfilled. These rules don’t solve problems, they create them. For example, I assume we both agree that the sacrificial death of Jesus fulfilled every sacrifice and offering of the law, and yet the sacrifices and offerings of the Law (the shadows) continued to be offered up in the Temple for another 40 years after Jesus’ death. They did not immediately stop when Christ was crucified. They didn’t “pass away” (cease) until 40 years later. Remember Jesus said not one jot or tittle could pass from the law, including the jots and tittles about sacrifices, until ALL had been fulfilled. Jesus’ death was the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise of salvation, but there was more to be fulfilled, and it was fulfilled over the course of the next 40 years culminating with the judgment of the Law, the final jots and tittles. Then it all passed away.

But the point is that just because the sacrifices and offerings were still being made in the Temple (the shadows still existed) does not mean Jesus had not fulfilled them. And the same is true with the holy days. Just because they were still being observed does not mean they had not been fulfilled. So don't rely on that as some kind of rule to insist the feasts or some portions of the feasts have not been fulfilled.
Gadar Perets:
Paul said the feasts "are shadows of things to come". Therefore, when Paul wrote that the feasts had not been fulfilled yet.
I, GE, emboldened and coloured.
YOU, not I, wrote: "'Paul wrote'", and YOU, not I, said: "'Paul said'".

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

So here you erroneously refute my belief that the "body" of verse 17 means "believers" by saying it refers to "CHRIST", but then in post #129, you write, "We celebrate the New and Eternal, only Covenant of God's Grace Passover, “feasting, eating and drinking of Christ The Substance” and "Lamb of God", "our Passover" which is Jesus Christ "ministered, us holding to the Head, He the Nourishment being ministered, all the Body (of Christ’s Own 1:18) by joints and bands [of faith 2:12 Hosea 11:4; peace Ephesians 4:3; and charity Colossians 3:14], knit together (in love 2:2), growing with the growth of God" : "WHICH IS / ARE THE THING(S) IMMINENT" FOR "THE BODY (CHURCH) OF CHRIST'S OWN" showing the "body" of verse 17 means ""CHURCH". You are a very confused man.

My direct reaction to this was, just now, He he he he goodness . . . then to write, He he he he goodness . . . in response. So here you have it.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

FYI - Pilgrimer is a female.

Thanks. In these politically correct times, it may help, but not for linguistic lisp or lack of lissom.