Unravelling Revelation

[Rockerduck]

Revelation 4 & 5

These two chapters form an extended introduction to the first main vision (the seven seals), and also set the scene for the whole of the remainder of the book. John is no longer on earth; in his vision he has been transported into heaven (Revelation 4:1), from where he can see events on earth from God’s perspective.

As with the vision of Christ in chapter 1, the description of heaven is symbolic, not photographic. It’s rather like the diagrams of atomic structure that you find in school science textbooks: the electrons appear to have have tidy circular orbits around the central nucleus, and the whole thing looks very much like a miniature solar system. But atoms aren’t really like that. The diagram isn’t giving you a picture of “what an atom looks like”; it’s intended to help you understand the relationships between the different components and how they ‘work’. It’s the same kind of thing here: God’s throne is depicted as being at the centre of heaven, with concentric circles of “four living creatures”, “24 elders” and thousands of angels around it. But this isn’t a “picture” of what we would see if we were actually in heaven; it’s explaining the relationship of everything (creation, church and angels) to God, using pictorial language mostly drawn from the Old Testament.

What does it tell us? That God is at the very centre of all things. That He reigns (He's sitting on His glorious throne), and that His throne room is far more magnificent than Caesar’s! God Himself is indescribable and undescribed, but all the various manifestations of His presence in times past (the theophany at Sinai, the visions of Isaiah and Ezekiel) are fused together in the description of His glory. Yet at the same time the prominence of the rainbow, the symbol of His grace (see Genesis 9:13), makes Heaven a welcoming place.

Immediately surrounding the throne are four “living creatures”. They represent Creation, which continuously declares the glory of God (Psalm 19:1,2). Around them is a circle of 24 thrones, on which sit “elders”. These represent the New Creation, the people of God, who reign in the heavenly places even while still on earth (Ephesians 2:6,7). Why 24 of them? 24 is 12 + 12, which stands for both Israel and the Church, united under the new covenant. All join together with Nature and with the hosts of angels in constant worship of their Creator.

The Holy Spirit, represented by a seven-branched lampstand, is located immediately in front of the throne of God. Jesus makes a dramatic entrance halfway through the vision, as if returning to Heaven after His ascension (Revelation 5:5,6). Yet He appears right at the centre of the throne of God, and his seven horns and seven eyes indicate omnipotence and omniscience. And the hosts of heaven worship Him along with the Father. Have you got the message? Jesus is God! But at the same time He is subordinate to the Father, and receives authority from Him (Revelation 5:7).

The 4 living creatures in 4:7, are symbolic of the 4 gospels. Corresponding with Ezekiel 1:10. Matthew is the Lion that presented Christ as a King. Mark is an ox/calf, that presented Christ as a servant, and Luke depicts Christ as a Man, and John is the eagle that depicts Christ's deity.
Notice the order of the gospels. Matthew (Lion)gives the genealogy of a King. Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Mark has no genealogy as that of a servant and the ox/calf are servant animals. Luke shows the Man of God, the Son of Man. John (eagle) shows the risen Christ. I've used this example to show God knew these gospels would be written, who would write them, and the order they were written in.

 

[quietthinker]

The 4 living creatures in 4:7, are symbolic of the 4 gospels. Corresponding with Ezekiel 1:10. Matthew is the Lion that presented Christ as a King. Mark is an ox/calf, that presented Christ as a servant, and Luke depicts Christ as a Man, and John is the eagle that depicts Christ's deity.
Notice the order of the gospels. Matthew (Lion)gives the genealogy of a King. Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Mark has no genealogy as that of a servant and the ox/calf are servant animals. Luke shows the Man of God, the Son of Man. John (eagle) shows the risen Christ. I've used this example to show God knew these gospels would be written, who would write them, and the order they were written in.

If we condense the four Gospels and say they are a record of the character of God, could we also say the four living creatures are representative of all created intelligences (note 'four' = universal ie, north, south, east and west).....again, all corners of the Universe witnessing to the character of God (they proclaim/ sing, he is worthy, he is worthy)

 

[CTK]

If we condense the four Gospels and say they are a record of the character of God, could we also say the four living creatures are representative of all created intelligences (note 'four' = universal ie, north, south, east and west).....again, all corners of the Universe witnessing to the character of God (they proclaim/ sing, he is worthy, he is worthy)

For what it is worth:

In Revelation 6:1, John writes, “I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, ‘Come and see.’” This living creature is likely the same as the ones described in Revelation 4 and 5. If we can accept the premise that the horsemen are four different manifestations of the little horn (Daniel 7:8, 24–25), the living creatures may serve as divine witnesses, pointing out the deceptive and destructive strategies employed by this singular actor throughout history. This aligns with their role in Revelation 6, where each living creature introduces one of the horsemen. Their command to “Come and see” might not only be directed at John but also at the world, inviting humanity to discern the spiritual truths being unveiled.

The 4 horsemen represent the little horn seen through four different aspects of his influence is consistent with the method God uses throughout Scripture to provide layered understanding:

1. White Horse: Deception through counterfeit spiritual authority and the distortion of divine truth.
2. Red Horse: Spiritual conflict, inciting division, rebellion, and strife among humanity.
3. Black Horse: Spiritual famine, suppression of God’s Word, and the imbalance of moral and divine order.
4. Pale Horse: Spiritual and eternal death, the inevitable consequence of rejecting God’s truth and grace.

The living creatures announcing these judgments might be revealing the multifaceted ways the little horn seeks to corrupt and oppose God’s kingdom. Their role in introducing the horsemen serves to expose the strategies of the little horn and to call humanity to discernment and repentance. It also highlights the layered, symbolic method God uses to reveal profound spiritual truths, allowing us to see His unified plan through diverse expressions.

Relationship of 7 churches with 4 horsemen​

The messages of the seven churches and the visions of the four horsemen in Revelation weave together into a grand and divinely ordered narrative. By examining the horsemen alongside the church periods, we uncover a pattern that is precise, purposeful, and deeply reflective of God’s sovereignty. This alignment reveals that the sequence of events is not random but intentionally orchestrated by God to unfold His redemptive plan in history.



The White Horse: A Conquest Without War

The white horse begins the timeline, aligning with the rise of the papacy to full power during the early period of Thyatira (AD 538–800). The rider carries a bow but no arrow, signifying conquest achieved not through military force but through influence, persuasion, and doctrinal authority. This period saw the papacy extend its dominance across Christendom, consolidating spiritual and political power under a veneer of righteousness. However, this conquest was not of truth and love but of control and dominance, leading to significant shifts in the church’s history. The imagery of the white horse, often associated with victory, takes on a dual meaning here: it symbolizes triumph but also the beginning of corruption within the church. This alignment underscores that the order of events is no accident but part of God’s divine design.

The Red Horse: Conflict and Bloodshed

The red horse follows, symbolizing war and bloodshed during the middle Thyatira period and even into the Sardis period (AD 800–1500s). This was an era marked by the Crusades, the Inquisitions, and widespread conflict carried out in the name of religious authority. The sword in the rider’s hand reflects both literal violence and the spiritual warfare of this time, as the church sought to enforce its doctrines through coercion and suppression. The escalation of conflict during this period highlights the growing misuse of power and the deepening divide between the church’s actions and Christ’s teachings.

The Black Horse: A Famine of Truth

The black horse represents famine—not of physical sustenance but of spiritual truth. This horse aligns with the Thyatira and the Sardis periods (AD 1000–1700s), a time when the church experienced spiritual stagnation despite the beginnings of the Reformation. While access to Scripture was being restored, much of the church remained entrenched in lifeless traditions. The imagery of weighing wheat and barley for exorbitant prices reflects the spiritual impoverishment caused by the misuse of faith during the prior era, as indulgences and corruption left a legacy of famine for God’s Word. This alignment emphasizes the ongoing consequences of the church’s earlier compromises.

The Pale Horse: Death and Hades

The pale horse brings death and Hades, aligning with the later Sardis period, the Philadelphia period, and extending into the Laodicean age (AD 1700s–Present). This horse symbolizes the spiritual deadness and complacency that characterize much of the modern church. The consequences of centuries of compromise and corruption culminate in a church that often appears alive but is inwardly dead. The pale horse’s destructive force serves as a sobering reminder of the ultimate outcome of abandoning true faith and reliance on God. Yet, even here, God’s mercy invites His people to awaken and return to Him.



Note: The above time frames do not represent precise or definitive periods for each of the four horsemen. Instead, they offer a reasonable estimate of the strategies the Little Horn has employed throughout its reign, which began in the early 6th century. Additionally, these actions are not confined to any single phase but can be observed throughout the different periods of church history, often overlapping across multiple eras.

 

[quietthinker]

For what it is worth:

In Revelation 6:1, John writes, “I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, ‘Come and see.’” This living creature is likely the same as the ones described in Revelation 4 and 5. If we can accept the premise that the horsemen are four different manifestations of the little horn (Daniel 7:8, 24–25), the living creatures may serve as divine witnesses, pointing out the deceptive and destructive strategies employed by this singular actor throughout history. This aligns with their role in Revelation 6, where each living creature introduces one of the horsemen. Their command to “Come and see” might not only be directed at John but also at the world, inviting humanity to discern the spiritual truths being unveiled.

The 4 horsemen represent the little horn seen through four different aspects of his influence is consistent with the method God uses throughout Scripture to provide layered understanding:

1. White Horse: Deception through counterfeit spiritual authority and the distortion of divine truth.
2. Red Horse: Spiritual conflict, inciting division, rebellion, and strife among humanity.
3. Black Horse: Spiritual famine, suppression of God’s Word, and the imbalance of moral and divine order.
4. Pale Horse: Spiritual and eternal death, the inevitable consequence of rejecting God’s truth and grace.

The living creatures announcing these judgments might be revealing the multifaceted ways the little horn seeks to corrupt and oppose God’s kingdom. Their role in introducing the horsemen serves to expose the strategies of the little horn and to call humanity to discernment and repentance. It also highlights the layered, symbolic method God uses to reveal profound spiritual truths, allowing us to see His unified plan through diverse expressions.

Relationship of 7 churches with 4 horsemen​

The messages of the seven churches and the visions of the four horsemen in Revelation weave together into a grand and divinely ordered narrative. By examining the horsemen alongside the church periods, we uncover a pattern that is precise, purposeful, and deeply reflective of God’s sovereignty. This alignment reveals that the sequence of events is not random but intentionally orchestrated by God to unfold His redemptive plan in history.



The White Horse: A Conquest Without War

The white horse begins the timeline, aligning with the rise of the papacy to full power during the early period of Thyatira (AD 538–800). The rider carries a bow but no arrow, signifying conquest achieved not through military force but through influence, persuasion, and doctrinal authority. This period saw the papacy extend its dominance across Christendom, consolidating spiritual and political power under a veneer of righteousness. However, this conquest was not of truth and love but of control and dominance, leading to significant shifts in the church’s history. The imagery of the white horse, often associated with victory, takes on a dual meaning here: it symbolizes triumph but also the beginning of corruption within the church. This alignment underscores that the order of events is no accident but part of God’s divine design.

The Red Horse: Conflict and Bloodshed

The red horse follows, symbolizing war and bloodshed during the middle Thyatira period and even into the Sardis period (AD 800–1500s). This was an era marked by the Crusades, the Inquisitions, and widespread conflict carried out in the name of religious authority. The sword in the rider’s hand reflects both literal violence and the spiritual warfare of this time, as the church sought to enforce its doctrines through coercion and suppression. The escalation of conflict during this period highlights the growing misuse of power and the deepening divide between the church’s actions and Christ’s teachings.

The Black Horse: A Famine of Truth

The black horse represents famine—not of physical sustenance but of spiritual truth. This horse aligns with the Thyatira and the Sardis periods (AD 1000–1700s), a time when the church experienced spiritual stagnation despite the beginnings of the Reformation. While access to Scripture was being restored, much of the church remained entrenched in lifeless traditions. The imagery of weighing wheat and barley for exorbitant prices reflects the spiritual impoverishment caused by the misuse of faith during the prior era, as indulgences and corruption left a legacy of famine for God’s Word. This alignment emphasizes the ongoing consequences of the church’s earlier compromises.

The Pale Horse: Death and Hades

The pale horse brings death and Hades, aligning with the later Sardis period, the Philadelphia period, and extending into the Laodicean age (AD 1700s–Present). This horse symbolizes the spiritual deadness and complacency that characterize much of the modern church. The consequences of centuries of compromise and corruption culminate in a church that often appears alive but is inwardly dead. The pale horse’s destructive force serves as a sobering reminder of the ultimate outcome of abandoning true faith and reliance on God. Yet, even here, God’s mercy invites His people to awaken and return to Him.



Note: The above time frames do not represent precise or definitive periods for each of the four horsemen. Instead, they offer a reasonable estimate of the strategies the Little Horn has employed throughout its reign, which began in the early 6th century. Additionally, these actions are not confined to any single phase but can be observed throughout the different periods of church history, often overlapping across multiple eras.

Sounds like a plausible explanation. I would however say that prediction does not equal causation. God who knows the end from the beginning can tell us how history will pan out but this doesn't mean he has orchestrated it.
It is Jesus who confirms there is an Evil player in the cosmic conflict and just as the temptation and fall of the first pair was not something orchestrated by God so too is the rest of the evil this World has and is experiencing

 

[Stumpmaster]

Personally I find the Revelation to primarily be narrative prophecy as are the other prophetic passages.

I think that we should read it sequencially, and that the language directs us to do that.

Just my 2 cents . . .

Much love!

Good call. Anything else and the cadence is lost.

 

[Brakelite]

Personally I find the Revelation to primarily be narrative prophecy as are the other prophetic passages.

I think that we should read it sequencially, and that the language directs us to do that.

Just my 2 cents . . .

Much love!

I agree in part. But some of those sequential passages are repeated but from a different perspective, not different time frame. For example, the 7 churches, the seals, and the trumpets, cover the same time frame, but come from slightly different perspectives on the ministry of Christ in His work with mankind. All that work is centered in the heavenly sanctuary, and is a revelation of Christ Himself as the Son of man (the churches), as the Lamb slain (the seals), and as High Priest and intercessor (trumpets). All parallel each other, and are not separate sequences running after one another in the last few final days as many suppose. All 3 start from the early church and run historically through to the second coming.

 

[Douggg]

The 4 living creatures in 4:7, are symbolic of the 4 gospels. Corresponding with Ezekiel 1:10. Matthew is the Lion that presented Christ as a King. Mark is an ox/calf, that presented Christ as a servant, and Luke depicts Christ as a Man, and John is the eagle that depicts Christ's deity.
Notice the order of the gospels. Matthew (Lion)gives the genealogy of a King. Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Mark has no genealogy as that of a servant and the ox/calf are servant animals. Luke shows the Man of God, the Son of Man. John (eagle) shows the risen Christ. I've used this example to show God knew these gospels would be written, who would write them, and the order they were written in.

I think the 4 living beasts represent the earthly beings of God's creation. i.e. with faces of....the lion, the animal kingdom; the calf, the domesticated animals; the eagle, the birds; the man, humans. All under God's sovereignty.

 

[Rockerduck]

I think the 4 living beasts represent the earthly beings of God's creation. i.e. with faces of....the lion, the animal kingdom; the calf, the domesticated animals; the eagle, the birds; the man, humans. All under God's sovereignty.

Not if you see that the animals line up with Gospels. In Ezekiel and Revelation, they are the same.

 

[marks]

I agree in part. But some of those sequential passages are repeated but from a different perspective, not different time frame. For example, the 7 churches, the seals, and the trumpets, cover the same time frame, but come from slightly different perspectives on the ministry of Christ in His work with mankind. All that work is centered in the heavenly sanctuary, and is a revelation of Christ Himself as the Son of man (the churches), as the Lamb slain (the seals), and as High Priest and intercessor (trumpets). All parallel each other, and are not separate sequences running after one another in the last few final days as many suppose. All 3 start from the early church and run historically through to the second coming.

However, that's not how it reads. I'm going with the plain reading as narrative prophecy, just like the rest.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I think the 4 living beasts represent the earthly beings of God's creation. i.e. with faces of....the lion, the animal kingdom; the calf, the domesticated animals; the eagle, the birds; the man, humans. All under God's sovereignty.

And the dragon . . . a fifth living creature? The face of the ox . . . the pinnacle of domestic animals. The face of a lion . . . the pinnacle of wild animals. The face of an eagle . . . the pinnacle of airborne animals. The face of a man . . . the pinnacle of all creatures. And perhaps the dragon . . . the pinnacle of reptiles?

Much love!

 

[Deborah_]

The 4 living creatures in 4:7, are symbolic of the 4 gospels.

could we also say the four living creatures are representative of all created intelligences (note 'four' = universal ie, north, south, east and west).....again, all corners of the Universe witnessing to the character of God (they proclaim/ sing, he is worthy, he is worthy)

I think the 4 living beasts represent the earthly beings of God's creation.

No-one knows for certain. Whatever explanation works for you...

 

[Douggg]

And the dragon . . . a fifth living creature? The face of the ox . . . the pinnacle of domestic animals. The face of a lion . . . the pinnacle of wild animals. The face of an eagle . . . the pinnacle of airborne animals. The face of a man . . . the pinnacle of all creatures. And perhaps the dragon . . . the pinnacle of reptiles?

Much love!

A dragon was not mentioned. There were four living creatures.

 

[Deborah_]

Revelation 6:1-8:1

When Jesus went to Nazareth and read from the scroll of Isaiah in the synagogue, He was fulfilling the words of the prophet even as He spoke them (Luke 4:21). In a similar way, as He opens and reads this heavenly scroll (which contains God’s purposes for the ‘last days’, the time between Christ’s ascension and His return), its contents are brought to pass - and John sees them as a series of visions.

The seven seals follow a pattern that is repeated in several places in Revelation. The first four form a group; they have much in common, and are probably happening simultaneously. The next two are somewhat different in nature, the sixth clearly describing the Day of Judgement. The final seal is what happens after the Last Judgement, when the victory over evil has finally been won.

The breaking of the first four seals reveals the famous “four horsemen of the Apocalypse’ - Conquest, War, Famine and Death. These forces have been raging through the world for the whole of the last two millennia. They cause much suffering, but this is inevitable - these are the birth-pangs of the new age (Mark 13:8).

The fifth seal reveals the martyrs who have laid down their lives for God and His truth, whose blood has been poured out as an offering to God (see II Timothy 4:6). They appeal to God, the Judge, for vindication - for proof that they have not died in vain. But they must wait for the world’s iniquity to be complete before they can inherit the earth - just as the Israelites had to wait for the iniquity of the Amorites to be complete before they could inherit their land (Genesis 15:16). Thus we are warned that persecution and martyrdom will continue for as long as this age lasts; but we are also reassured that God remains in control.

When the sixth seal is broken, the Day of the Lord arrives! The entire universe will be convulsed, and the very fabric of the earth will disintegrate. So those who have lived in a state of rebellion against God will be reduced to a state of utter terror; they will attempt to run and hide, but there will be nowhere for them to go!

But before the seventh seal is broken, John is shown the same events from a different perspective (chapter 7), to provide him (and us) with some reassurance about the fate of God’s people during these turbulent times. First he sees a tidal wave of judgement (the four winds are probably equivalent to the four horsemen) about to engulf the world - but it will be delayed until the righteous can be protected. For God is never indiscriminate in His judgements; He will spare those who belong to Him. who display His mark of ownership (see Ezekiel 9:3-6). That mark, or seal, is the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13,14). And we who are sealed are also counted, to ensure that none will be lost! Like the original twelve tribes in the wilderness (see Numbers 1), we are counted as soldiers ready to go into battle - a vast spiritual army, commissioned to invade and conquer the nations!

144,000 is, of course, a symbolic number! In reality, as John is now shown (Revelation 7:9), we are a vast multi-ethnic multitude! He sees God’s people at the very end of their pilgrimage, as they celebrate their final gathering together in the great fulfilment of the Feast of Tabernacles. They have battled through temptation and persecution, and remained faithful; they have been cleansed from sin and made holy by the blood of Christ; and they are now safely home in the loving embrace of their heavenly Father.

When at last the final seal is broken (Revelation 8:1), it reveals… nothing. For the scroll was about the history of this present world, which was brought to an end with seal number six, and after that there will be no more world history! But the pause is a pregnant one. God is about to put His Word into effect, to act upon His promises - but first He offers all mankind the opportunity to repent. So we must all urgently consider what our response is going to be…

 

[Brakelite]

However, that's not how it reads. I'm going with the plain reading as narrative prophecy, just like the rest.

Much love!

Doesn't Daniel repeat and enlarge? Isn't Daniel 7a repeat of Daniel 2, and Daniel's 8,9,11 further detailed repays of previous chapters? Why wouldn't God be consistent and just as informative in revelation?

 

[marks]

Doesn't Daniel repeat and enlarge? Isn't Daniel 7a repeat of Daniel 2, and Daniel's 8,9,11 further detailed repays of previous chapters? Why wouldn't God be consistent and just as informative in revelation?

Some suggest that Nebuchadnezzar's statue is man's view of the same kingdoms that God sees as wild animals. And this does not obviate the narrative prophetic aspect to these prophecies. It's the commonality that shows these are the same. This is true with other prophecies, there are common time frames, common events and circustances, common outcomes, by these we know we are looking at the same thing.

So wouldn't it be prudent to look for those things in the Revelation just as we do in the other Scriptures? The fact of the matter is that the first seal is a conqueror, the first trumpet is a rain of fire, the first bowl is a grievous sore. Are you suggesting these show the same thing from different perspectives? I find that a hard sell. They lack the commonality, and there exists wording that shows these to be one after the other. The angels aren't given the trumpets until the seals are all opened. Like that.

So when I'm saying I'm holding to the narrative aspect, it's in view of these timing words given. The 7th seal is opened, and there is silence in heaven for a half hour, and seven angels are given 7 trumpets. I think that's exactly how it happens.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Personally I find the Revelation to primarily be narrative prophecy as are the other prophetic passages.

I think that we should read it sequencially, and that the language directs us to do that.

Just my 2 cents . . .

Much love!

Are you talking about the whole book?

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Do you read this all sequentially? I highly doubt it because that would mean Jesus's birth and ascension occurred after the seventh trumpet sounded.

 

[marks]

Are you talking about the whole book?

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Do you read this all sequentially? I highly doubt it because that would mean Jesus's birth and ascension occurred after the seventh trumpet sounded.

I mean that I include the timing words given in my interpretation of the entire book. Certainly parts are parenthetical, and those parts are denoted accordingly. It's all there, only, unless you are willing to commit to an historical/grammatical hermeneutic, it's unlikely you will see it.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I mean that I include the timing words given in my interpretation of the entire book.

What do you mean by that exactly?

Certainly parts are parenthetical, and those parts are denoted accordingly.

How so? For example, how exactly do you know that what is described in Revelation 12 does not follow what is described in Revelation 11 chronologically?

It's all there, only, unless you are willing to commit to an historical/grammatical hermeneutic, it's unlikely you will see it.

Much love!

Tell me what exactly your understanding is of "an historical/grammatical hermeneutic". Are you sure that's the best hermeneutic for interpreting a book that undeniably contains a lot of symbolism?

 

[marks]

What do you mean by that exactly?


How so? For example, how exactly do you know that what is described in Revelation 12 does not follow what is described in Revelation 11 chronologically?


Tell me what exactly your understanding is of "an historical/grammatical hermeneutic". Are you sure that's the best hermeneutic for interpreting a book that undeniably contains a lot of symbolism?

I think these things are self explanatory. And symbolism is determined by the context, and the Bible's own identification of what is a symbol and what that symbol means. Many people think they have some special code on how to know the symbols in the Revelation but I rely on Scripture's own authority.

For instance John sees 7 lampstands, and Jesus tells him what those 7 lampstands represent. So we have Scriptural authority. Someone says, "the 24 elders represent the church" lacks Scriptural authority, as the Bible does not make such a statement, either that the elders are a symbol, or that this is the meaning of said symbol.

I don't believe a discussion on this between you and I will be fruitful, and so I'm declining.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think these things are self explanatory.

The chronology of the book is self explanatory? How so? How exactly do you think that we can determine when it's not in chronological order such as in the case of Revelation 11 and 12?

And symbolism is determined by the context, and the Bible's own identification of what is a symbol and what that symbol means. Many people think they have some special code on how to know the symbols in the Revelation but I rely on Scripture's own authority.

For instance John sees 7 lampstands, and Jesus tells him what those 7 lampstands represent. So we have Scriptural authority. Someone says, "the 24 elders represent the church" lacks Scriptural authority, as the Bible does not make such a statement, either that the elders are a symbol, or that this is the meaning of said symbol.

It doesn't tell us whether the elders are a symbol or not. So, your default is to assume they are not? Despite them being referenced in the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture? The fact is that the text does not tell us in detail who exactly the 24 elders are. So, it doesn't tell us one way or another whether they are symbolic or not. I see no basis for assuming that every time something in the book of Revelation is symbolic then it will tell us so and we should assume everything else is literal.

Take this verse for instance:

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

There is nothing anywhere in the book which tells us that "the synagogue of Satan" is a symbolic reference, so should we assume that it is a literal synagogue somewhere that Satan followers attend? Or can we discern that it's a symbolic reference even if it doesn't tell us that it is?

I don't believe a discussion on this between you and I will be fruitful, and so I'm declining.

It could be if you were teachable, but you are not. I won't press the issue, so you can do what you want, of course.