Traditional Worship VS Praise and Worship Venues

[Born_Again]

I am a very traditional Christian, meaning I prefer a traditional church service as opposed to a praise and worship type venue. However, I can see the benefit of the praise and worship type services. But my conflict with this lies in the fact that there should not need to be a bunch of pomp and circumstance to attract someone to Christ.

Human nature dictates that with enough "pretty lights and sounds" we can be convinced of just about anything and say we "Felt" something.. But, once you leave the venue the feeling will only last so long. So, how effective was it? I see large Praise and Worship venues as what I would call "drive thru saving". Meaning, get everyone in, get them saved, and move to the next...

If you know Christ or come to know Him, you shouldn't need pretty lights and an electric guitar to keep you going in faith. As I have mentioned before, there is an unreasonable expectation put on a church when they have to change their venue in order to attract followers. "Make it pretty or I'm not going". Forget what the message is.......

In this instance though, I want to be very clear, I am referring to the more recent uprising in drum kits and guitars showing up next to the pulpit. I am NOT referring to those who have been doing this a while i.e. Pentecostals and such. That is just how those religions are.

But look at these super churches that are led by a kid in a hoodie with a super cool headset on and carrying his guitar while he preaches. .... Meanwhile, drones of people flock for miles to here him jam a riff or two and lead them in a prayer..... I could be wrong about the whole thing but this just bothers me as I have seen my own church dedicate it's late service to this type of venue. They even take out the beautiful oak trimmed pulpit that weighs a metric ton and replace it with a piece of plastic that looks like it was designed for Star Trek.

I could just be ranting but I think my concern has at least mild validity. I just don't see Jesus standing on the hill and saying.. "Peter, I want a good show today, hand me my guitar. Judas, when you're done betraying me, get on drums". Why? Because it's in the message, not the show!!

 

[7angels]

it all depends upon where the spirit leads us. matty montgomery has a rock and roll band that sings christian music. he also comes and preaches and he has a evangelist anointing upon himself. he is able to reach the younger generations. so music or dress have nothing to do with reaching the lost but it all comes down to what the Holy Spirit wants :)

God bless

 

[FHII]

I agree with you, BA. While my Church does have live and lively music, stage and effect lighting and plenty of dancing, its the message and preaching that is the main event.

 

[Angelina]

I am a very traditional Christian, meaning I prefer a traditional church service as opposed to a praise and worship type venue. However, I can see the benefit of the praise and worship type services. But my conflict with this lies in the fact that there should not need to be a bunch of pomp and circumstance to attract someone to Christ.

Human nature dictates that with enough "pretty lights and sounds" we can be convinced of just about anything and say we "Felt" something.. But, once you leave the venue the feeling will only last so long. So, how effective was it? I see large Praise and Worship venues as what I would call "drive thru saving". Meaning, get everyone in, get them saved, and move to the next...

If you know Christ or come to know Him, you shouldn't need pretty lights and an electric guitar to keep you going in faith. As I have mentioned before, there is an unreasonable expectation put on a church when they have to change their venue in order to attract followers. "Make it pretty or I'm not going". Forget what the message is.......

In this instance though, I want to be very clear, I am referring to the more recent uprising in drum kits and guitars showing up next to the pulpit. I am NOT referring to those who have been doing this a while i.e. Pentecostals and such. That is just how those religions are.

But look at these super churches that are led by a kid in a hoodie with a super cool headset on and carrying his guitar while he preaches. .... Meanwhile, drones of people flock for miles to here him jam a riff or two and lead them in a prayer..... I could be wrong about the whole thing but this just bothers me as I have seen my own church dedicate it's late service to this type of venue. They even take out the beautiful oak trimmed pulpit that weighs a metric ton and replace it with a piece of plastic that looks like it was designed for Star Trek.

I could just be ranting but I think my concern has at least mild validity. I just don't see Jesus standing on the hill and saying.. "Peter, I want a good show today, hand me my guitar. Judas, when you're done betraying me, get on drums". Why? Because it's in the message, not the show!!

I agree with you BA and I am from a Pentecostal background who has grown up around worship where there are Lead, bass, acoustic guitars, drums, keyboards, piano and a myriad of other percussion instruments.

There are many forms of worship ~ Music is just one form.
When I was just a newbie in the worship team we were taught things about worship that may not hold the same emphasis as in other church gatherings ~ for instance, we believe that worship is liken to a forerunner leading up to the preaching of the word. Many times people are not in the right place of hearing or receiving the word of God because of various pressing matters/concerns in their every day lives.

The purpose of the worship team is to lead people into that intimate [one-on-one] place with God which translates into the corporate worship setting as well.

The idea as a pentecostal believer in my denomination is that one is entering into a place with God indicative of entering into a temple There are three main sections of the temple and each one symbolizes the relationship between you and God through progression ~ from the outer court, into the holy place and then into the presence of God ~ the Holy of Holies. The song list picked out by the Worship leader exemplifies this progression based on prayerfully chosen songs.

Most Worship leaders I know, spend about a week praying about the song list. When God gives them the songs, it usually fits within the context of the preaching without checking on the pastors sermon beforehand. ;) The outer court signifies praise...songs that are related to celebration, joy and praise for example:. "He Has made me Glad", "Joy is a Flag" "With the High Praises" The Inner court is a variation of music slightly toned down with praise, thanksgiving and worship ~ "I Will Celebrate" "Come, Now is the Time to Worship" "My Troubled Soul" The Holy of Holies are songs that are more worshipful ~ "Here I am to Worship" "Power of Your Love" Made Me Glad....


Just to clarify again ~ My belief is that praise and worship is an integral part of the whole Sunday service. It is the forerunner to the preaching of the word and prepares the heart to be open to listen and receive the word of God ~ and it spiritually "shakes the "proverbial worldly" dust off your feet."

 

[JimParker]

Just to clarify again ~ My belief is that praise and worship is an integral part of the whole Sunday service. It is the forerunner to the preaching of the word and prepares the heart to be open to listen and receive the word of God ~ and it spiritually "shakes the "proverbial worldly" dust off your feet."

In the primitive church, the service followed the pattern taken from the synagogue and the temple. The songs they would sing are the psalms. That would be followed by reading from "the memoirs of the apostles" (Gospel), a sermon and then the Eucharist. The central part of the service in the primitive church, which has continued in the liturgiccal churches until today, was the Eucharist. (Communion)

Of the receiving of the Body and Blood Jesus said:

John 6:53-4 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

and

Jhn 15:4-6 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

I have an emense appreciation of some of the songs which glorify and worship God. (I led worship for over 10 years in a Pentecostal church.)

I have some major concerns about going to church and hearing a rock and roll band singing about Jesus giving me a sloppy kiss. (Yeah! I heard that song lyric in a church.)

The purpose of worship is to draw near to God. My objective in leading worship was to lead the people from the paring lot to the throne of God. I refised to use "fluff" songs and always ended up with a hymn like "How great thou art" or "Majesty." If there were a few people on their faces, weeping before the Lord, when I was finished, I did my job.

Just my two kopecks........

jim

 

[OzSpen]

In the primitive church, the service followed the pattern taken from the synagogue and the temple. The songs they would sing are the psalms. That would be followed by reading from "the memoirs of the apostles" (Gospel), a sermon and then the Eucharist. The central part of the service in the primitive church, which has continued in the liturgiccal churches until today, was the Eucharist. (Communion)

Of the receiving of the Body and Blood Jesus said:

John 6:53-4 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

and

Jhn 15:4-6 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

I have an emense appreciation of some of the songs which glorify and worship God. (I led worship for over 10 years in a Pentecostal church.)

I have some major concerns about going to church and hearing a rock and roll band singing about Jesus giving me a sloppy kiss. (Yeah! I heard that song lyric in a church.)

The purpose of worship is to draw near to God. My objective in leading worship was to lead the people from the paring lot to the throne of God. I refised to use "fluff" songs and always ended up with a hymn like "How great thou art" or "Majesty." If there were a few people on their faces, weeping before the Lord, when I was finished, I did my job.

Just my two kopecks........

jim

Jim,

I consider there is another dimension that seems to be lost in most church gatherings in my part of the world:

'Well, my brothers and sisters, let’s summarize. When you meet together, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one will speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you' (1 Cor 14:26 NLT).

We have become such a hierarchical church in structure that we seem to have lost this every-member ministry dynamic. Some of my family attend Christian Brethren assemblies and they encourage open worship but the problem is that half of the congregation is closed down. The women are not allowed to participate. They take a strong line on men are the only ones allowed to 'minister' in a mixed congregation.

Oz

 

[JimParker]

Jim,

I consider there is another dimension that seems to be lost in most church gatherings in my part of the world:

'Well, my brothers and sisters, let’s summarize. When you meet together, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one will speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you' (1 Cor 14:26 NLT).

We have become such a hierarchical church in structure that we seem to have lost this every-member ministry dynamic. Some of my family attend Christian Brethren assemblies and they encourage open worship but the problem is that half of the congregation is closed down. The women are not allowed to participate. They take a strong line on men are the only ones allowed to 'minister' in a mixed congregation.

Oz

Paul closes that teaching with "Let all things be done decently and in order." (1Co 14:40) The Corinthian church had a problem with the service tending to turn into a charismatic free-for-all with people trying to out-do one another. I think his instruction for the women to keep silent was also an admonition to that particular church because of the city's culture. ( A person who was notable debauched was said to be "Corinthianized." ) Cornith was the Roman Empire's "SIn City" with the temple of Athena (?) boasting of it 1000 temle prostitutes. Women were encouraged to show their independence from male control in a society in which submission to a father or a husband was the assumed proper norm. I am under the impression that Corinth was an exception because of the city's "special" needs.

In contrast, we have Luke (the charismatic) reporting that Philip had four daughters who prophesied. I assume that prophesying was done in the meeting rather than around the house or while milking the cows. :)

There is absolutely no opportunity for anything other than the liturgy, without deviation from what St. John Chrysosthom wrote 1600 years ago, in the Orthodox church. And it is quite beautiful. It's quite a change from my time in the Pentecostal Holiness Church!

jim

 

[OzSpen]

Paul closes that teaching with "Let all things be done decently and in order." (1Co 14:40) The Corinthian church had a problem with the service tending to turn into a charismatic free-for-all with people trying to out-do one another. I think his instruction for the women to keep silent was also an admonition to that particular church because of the city's culture. ( A person who was notable debauched was said to be "Corinthianized." ) Cornith was the Roman Empire's "SIn City" with the temple of Athena (?) boasting of it 1000 temle prostitutes. Women were encouraged to show their independence from male control in a society in which submission to a father or a husband was the assumed proper norm. I am under the impression that Corinth was an exception because of the city's "special" needs.

In contrast, we have Luke (the charismatic) reporting that Philip had four daughters who prophesied. I assume that prophesying was done in the meeting rather than around the house or while milking the cows. :)

There is absolutely no opportunity for anything other than the liturgy, without deviation from what St. John Chrysosthom wrote 1600 years ago, in the Orthodox church. And it is quite beautiful. It's quite a change from my time in the Pentecostal Holiness Church!

jim

Jim,

Thanks for your input. I also agree that the disorder in Corinth and the order for the silence of women (1 Cor 15:33-35 NIV) applied specifically to the Corinthian disorder where women seemed to have been the chief offenders, but also to any such disorder in 'all the churches'. It was not meant to close down all women in ministry for all time. I Tim 2:11-15 (ESV) raises different issues.

However, the point I was raising about worship in the house churches of the first century was that of 1 Cor 14:26 (NLT) where all people who were gifted by God were encouraged to participate when the church gathered, whether they were male or female. We don't have to go only to the structures of the Orthodox Church to see this not happening, in my country you can go to a Presbyterian, Baptist or Pentecostal Church to see that not happening. I attend a Wesleyan seniors' mid-week group (meets in the daytime for us retired older folks) and there is no indication that 1 Cor 14:26 (NLT) could take place in that gathering. We've lost that every-member participation.

I've seen it happen in house churches, but one of those I visited a few months ago was as chaotic as any Toronto or Pensacola event that I've seen on YouTube. Doing things decently and in order was far from that house church's plan of action.

Oz

 

[JimParker]

I've seen it happen in house churches, but one of those I visited a few months ago was as chaotic as any Toronto or Pensacola event that I've seen on YouTube. Doing things decently and in order was far from that house church's plan of action.

House churches provide, I believe, the proper venue for the operation of the gifts of the Spirit. (Done in orderly fashion, of course)

I went to Toronto in 1995. It was both odd and wonderful. It was as if God was tangibly pouring His love over me. But it was not what church is supposed to be. It was more like a refreshing, short-term, retreat.

But, there will always be excesses as in Corinth. And the "Toronto Blessing" was soon packaged and marketed.

There's money to be made in selling the Holy Spirit.

jim

 

[OzSpen]

I've seen it happen in house churches, but one of those I visited a few months ago was as chaotic as any Toronto or Pensacola event that I've seen on YouTube. Doing things decently and in order was far from that house church's plan of action.

House churches provide, I believe, the proper venue for the operation of the gifts of the Spirit. (Done in orderly fashion, of course)

I went to Toronto in 1995. It was both odd and wonderful. It was as if God was tangibly pouring His love over me. But it was not what church is supposed to be. It was more like a refreshing, short-term, retreat.

But, there will always be excesses as in Corinth. And the "Toronto Blessing" was soon packaged and marketed.

There's money to be made in selling the Holy Spirit.

jim

Jim,

The small group (house church or mid-week group) is ideal with the operation of every-member ministry, but why do you think the church has moved so far from this 1st century church function?


Well, my brothers and sisters, let’s summarize. When you meet together, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one will speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you (1 Cor 14:26 NLT).

Has it to do with power in hierarchy? It didn't take all that long historically for the 1 Cor 14:26 (NLT) model to be abandoned for a hierarchical bishopric and the abandonment of every-member ministry. When I talk with church people about this, they seem to be convinced that there are only a very small number of people in the congregation who are gifted by God with ministry. For them, these are primarily pastors, evangelists, elders and deacons. As for the gifts of 1 Cor 12-14, they have not been taught about these charismata so they have not experienced them. It's foreign language.

 

[Angelina]

In the primitive church, the service followed the pattern taken from the synagogue and the temple. The songs they would sing are the psalms. That would be followed by reading from "the memoirs of the apostles" (Gospel), a sermon and then the Eucharist. The central part of the service in the primitive church, which has continued in the liturgiccal churches until today, was the Eucharist. (Communion)

Of the receiving of the Body and Blood Jesus said:

John 6:53-4 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

and

Jhn 15:4-6 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

I have an emense appreciation of some of the songs which glorify and worship God. (I led worship for over 10 years in a Pentecostal church.)

I have some major concerns about going to church and hearing a rock and roll band singing about Jesus giving me a sloppy kiss. (Yeah! I heard that song lyric in a church.)

The purpose of worship is to draw near to God. My objective in leading worship was to lead the people from the paring lot to the throne of God. I refised to use "fluff" songs and always ended up with a hymn like "How great thou art" or "Majesty." If there were a few people on their faces, weeping before the Lord, when I was finished, I did my job.

Just my two kopecks........

jim

Our Pentecostal Church was not primitive ~ it just honored God a certain way. I have also been a worship leader for many years but as I have said in my original post ~ "My belief is that praise and worship is an integral part of the whole Sunday service. It is the forerunner to the preaching of the word and prepares the heart to be open to listen and receive the word of God ~ and it spiritually "shakes the "proverbial worldly" dust off your feet." Whatever that may look like to you or any other believer ;)

 

[JimParker]

I've seen it happen in house churches, but one of those I visited a few months ago was as chaotic as any Toronto or Pensacola event that I've seen on YouTube. Doing things decently and in order was far from that house church's plan of action.

House churches provide, I believe, the proper venue for the operation of the gifts of the Spirit. (Done in orderly fashion, of course)

I went to Toronto in 1995. It was both odd and wonderful. It was as if God was tangibly pouring His love over me. But it was not what church is supposed to be. It was more like a refreshing, short-term, retreat.

But, there will always be excesses as in Corinth. And the "Toronto Blessing" was soon packaged and marketed.

There's money to be made in selling the Holy Spirit.

jim

Jim,

The small group (house church or mid-week group) is ideal with the operation of every-member ministry, but why do you think the church has moved so far from this 1st century church function?


Well, my brothers and sisters, let’s summarize. When you meet together, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one will speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you (1 Cor 14:26 NLT).

Has it to do with power in hierarchy? It didn't take all that long historically for the 1 Cor 14:26 (NLT) model to be abandoned for a hierarchical bishopric and the abandonment of every-member ministry. When I talk with church people about this, they seem to be convinced that there are only a very small number of people in the congregation who are gifted by God with ministry. For them, these are primarily pastors, evangelists, elders and deacons. As for the gifts of 1 Cor 12-14, they have not been taught about these charismata so they have not experienced them. It's foreign language.


<<Has it to do with power in hierarchy?>>

I don't think so. My orthodox church could have "home fellowships" with opportunity to develops the gifts of the Spirit etc.

I doubt if my priest would be anxious for me to start one. (Maybe I'll do it anyway! <_< )

<<It didn't take all that long historically for the 1 Cor 14:26 (NLT) model to be abandoned for a hierarchical bishopric and the abandonment of every-member ministry. >>

What is generally not grasped is; when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, the churches were flooded with converts. And, where there had been one small church in any given community with elders (priests) and one overseer-elder (bishop) for the congregation, now there were more Christians than the churches could hold and more church buildings had to be built to handle the flood of catechumens.

What the church did was send elders (priests) to the new buildings to be pastors in the place of the bishop. That created a hierarchy of bishops and priests. As the church continued to grow, the need to have a senior bishop in a provence (or after Diocletian, a diocese) and so the Arch-bishop was produced to insure the orthodoxy of the church in his diocese. And after that, as the church continued to grow, Patriarchs (popes) were appointed in territories to oversee the orthodoxy of the diocene arch-bishops. (Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem)

Another phenomenon was that the converts, while authentically converting to Christianity, could no but bring their pagan understanding of religion with them. In pagan religions, there was no such thing as a "priesthood of believers." There were people who had specialized training in the arts of being a mediator between the devotee and the god. They were paid professionals. The average person held no concept of himself as being a priest.

That mindset was brought into the church by the new converts and it caused a mental and then physical separation between the clergy and the laity. The Bishops and Priests and Deacons were seen as the "paid professionals" who wee the intermediaries between the believer and God. Unfortunately, it stuck and was never quite eliminated.

One of the reasons it stuck is that, up until today, pastors overtly or covertly promote that attitude out of concern that some gifted, charismatic, member will start a little church of his own and take away a few people who write big checks.

As for the gifts of 1 Cor 12-14, they have not been taught about these charismata so they have not experienced them. It's foreign language.

The don't know because they have not been taught. That's right. And even in the Pentecostal Holiness church I attended, the gifts were taught but don't ever look like you might actually go into full time ministry! It was controlled so that any ministry in the gifts was kept at a small scale. The leadership was very paranoid about anyone starting anything that might diminish the weekly take.

What I find in the Orthodox church that I attend is that they are happy for anyone to go into ministry. Just be prepared to go to seminary for three years at a cost of $20 to $30 thousand a year and then you can be a priest or a deacon somewhere. No prophets. No speakers in tongues and interpreters. No workers of miracles, healers, exorcists (unless you went to seminary and are a priest) etc.

The Antiochan Church in the USA has an on-line program that only cost about $1100 a year but I was not encouraged by my priest to pursue that. It would give a certificate in Orthodox Theology which would be a good complement to my MA in Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary which is, of course, a degree in western theology.

I'll be 70 this June and I'm getting a bit old for all the hurdles, barriers, and road blocks to ministry within the established churches. I appreciate their responsibility to insure orthodoxy but I really don't think that's an issue of concern that anyone should have with me.

jim

Our Pentecostal Church was not primitive ~ it just honored God a certain way. I have also been a worship leader for many years but as I have said in my original post ~ "My belief is that praise and worship is an integral part of the whole Sunday service. It is the forerunner to the preaching of the word and prepares the heart to be open to listen and receive the word of God ~ and it spiritually "shakes the "proverbial worldly" dust off your feet." Whatever that may look like to you or any other believer ;)

Looks good to me.

 

[Angelina]

Well you certainly have a lot of background experience in this area Jim... :) and I can relate to some of the things you have said.

Bless ya!