To what does the APOSTASIA refer

[Spiritual Israelite]

You said:

Did you even read what I said? My point was that it can't be referring to the rapture because Paul said the apostasia has to occur first before the rapture.

Can you show me where this is stated in Scripture? I will change my position as a pre-tribber if you can show me this. I suppose you will not answer this request.

Why would you suppose that I would not answer that question? Of course I will. It's very clear.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So, the context here is established in verse 1 where Paul indicates that he's going to talk about things related to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him". That's an obvious reference to the rapture. He referred to that day as "the day of the Lord" and indicated "that day will not come until the rebellion occurs". Other translations have "falling away" instead of "rebellion" there, but the point is the apostasia, whatever you understand that to be, has to occur first before "that day" of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" occurs. So, you can't have the rapture occurring first before "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" occurs" since "our being gathered to him" refers to the rapture.

 

[marks]

But, I'm not sure why you're acting like such a time period wouldn't even happen.

What makes you think this? I've never said any such thing. Only that "the apostasia", or, "the departure" in 2 Thessalonians 2 doesn't refer to an undefined time of spiritual apostasy as though that undefined time were a sign of the end.

"OK, the apostasy has come, so now we can know it's actually the Day of the Lord". The other sign, the revealing of the man of sin, is a singular event. So why would the apostasia not be a singular event?

In fact it's the known increase of departing from the faith, perilous times will grow worse and worse, ongoing worsening of the times, many will depart from the faith, are you thinking, 'all at once'? I'm not seriously suggesting that you are, I'm thinking you are considering the known and growing increase in spiritual apostasy. But when do you know it's reached it's culmination, to be the prophesied sign?

Much love!

 

[WPM]

You said:

Did you even read what I said? My point was that it can't be referring to the rapture because Paul said the apostasia has to occur first before the rapture.

Can you show me where this is stated in Scripture? I will change my position as a pre-tribber if you can show me this. I suppose you will not answer this request.

The Lord employs the word parousia in reply to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:23-28, when He says, “if any man shall say unto you (before the one final future second coming of the Lord), Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son be. Wheresoever is the carcase, there will be gathered together the eagles.”

Christ immediately adds in Matthew 24:29-31, speaking of this one final future coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming [Gr. erchomai] in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Here is the gathering of God's people, the catching away, the rapture of the Church. This comes after the tribulation period.

 

[KUWN]

Why would you suppose that I would not answer that question? Of course I will. It's very clear.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So, the context here is established in verse 1 where Paul indicates that he's going to talk about things related to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him". That's an obvious reference to the rapture. He referred to that day as "the day of the Lord" and indicated "that day will not come until the rebellion occurs". Other translations have "falling away" instead of "rebellion" there, but the point is the apostasia, whatever you understand that to be, has to occur first before "that day" of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" occurs. So, you can't have the rapture occurring first before "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" occurs" since "our being gathered to him" refers to the rapture.

What I am saying is that the Rapture comes before that day of the lord. And that the APOSTASIA/REBELLION/FALLING AWAY is incorrectly translated. The APOSTASIA is the Rapture, not some falling away from the faith.

If you check just about any Greek lexicon you will see that one of the usages of APOSTASIA is a physical departure from one place to another. Yes, APOSTASIA is used in contexts of rebellion or falling away. But it also is used in the context of a physical departure.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What I am saying is that the Rapture comes before that day of the lord.

Yes, I know you're saying that and I'm saying that's wrong. I'm saying that Paul called the day of Christ's coming and and our being gathered to Him that he referenced in 2 Thess 2:1 "the day of hte Lord" in verse 2 and then referred to it as "that day" in verse 3. So, in verse 3 Paul said the apostasia would occur first before the day of Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him, which he called "the day of the Lord".

And that the APOSTASIA/REBELLION/FALLING AWAY is incorrectly translated. The APOSTASIA is the Rapture, not some falling away from the faith.

If you check just about any Greek lexicon you will see that one of the usages of APOSTASIA is a physical departure from one place to another. Yes, APOSTASIA is used in contexts of rebellion or falling away. But it also is used in the context of a physical departure.

You are just not getting it because your focus is only on that word apostasia and you're missing what "the day of the Lord" refers to. The apostasia can't be the rapture because Paul said it has to occur first before the rapture (our being gathered to Him").

 

[KUWN]

Yes, I know you're saying that and I'm saying that's wrong. I'm saying that Paul called the day of Christ's coming and and our being gathered to Him that he referenced in 2 Thess 2:1 "the day of hte Lord" in verse 2 and then referred to it as "that day" in verse 3. So, in verse 3 Paul said the apostasia would occur first before the day of Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him, which he called "the day of the Lord".


You are just not getting it because your focus is only on that word apostasia and you're missing what "the day of the Lord" refers to. The apostasia can't be the rapture because Paul said it has to occur first before the rapture (our being gathered to Him").

you say the apostasia cant be the rapture, and i am saying that the apostasia is the rapture. And, the day of the Lord (i.e. the Tribulation) cant come until the rapture happens first. If you like the last word, you can reply to this, but I will move on.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What makes you think this? I've never said any such thing.

Because of how you seemed to be saying that 1 Timothy 4 is not referring to a mass departure from the faith before Christ returns. So, that made me wonder if you believe that would happen at all since you don't believe that is referenced in 2 thess 2:3, either.

Only that "the apostasia", or, "the departure" in 2 Thessalonians 2 doesn't refer to an undefined time of spiritual apostasy as though that undefined time were a sign of the end.

It does, though. What else can it refer to? It cannot be referring to the rapture because Paul said it has to happen first before the rapture. He said that day of Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him would not occur until the apostasia and revealing of the man of sin happened first.

"OK, the apostasy has come, so now we can know it's actually the Day of the Lord". The other sign, the revealing of the man of sin, is a singular event. So why would the apostasia not be a singular event?

I'm not following this logic. I don't think there's any reason to believe it had to be a singular event. That's nothing more than speculation on your part. And, again, whatever it is, it had to happen before the rapture, so it can't be the rapture. We have other scripture which talks about a mass falling away from the faith before Christ returns, so it's very clear to me that is what Paul was writing about in 2 Thess 2:3.

In fact it's the known increase of departing from the faith, perilous times will grow worse and worse, ongoing worsening of the times, many will depart from the faith, are you thinking, 'all at once'? I'm not seriously suggesting that you are, I'm thinking you are considering the known and growing increase in spiritual apostasy. But when do you know it's reached it's culmination, to be the prophesied sign?

I already answered that question. There isn't anything you can just point at and say "Okay, there's the apostasia that Paul said would happen". It's something you discern by looking at what's happening in the world. If what I see happening in the U.S. is any indication, then I'd say that time has already begun. But, we shouldn't automatically make assumptions about the world based on what is happening in the U.S.. But, I think similar things are happening elsewhere as well in relation to moral decline.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

you say the apostasia cant be the rapture, and i am saying that the apostasia is the rapture. And, the day of the Lord (i.e. the Tribulation) cant come until the rapture happens first. If you like the last word, you can reply to this, but I will move on.

Can you see why I'm saying that, at least? It's frustrating when someone doesn't even understand my point regardless of whether you agree with it or not. So, I will explain it one more time.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

What I'm saying is that Paul references the rapture in verse 1 here when he refers to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him". Agree? I would hope so. It's quite obvious. But, what I think you're missing is that he doesn't change the subject in verses 2 and 3. He's still talking about "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" in verse 2, but refers to it as "the day of the Lord". And then in verse 3 he refers to it again as "that day". So, in verse 3 he is saying that the apostasia and revealing of the man of sin/lawlessness have to occur first before "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" (the day of the Lord). And, obviously, the rapture (our being gathered to Him) can't occur first before the rapture.

So, do you at least see my point now even if you disagree with it? I hate to move on before you even understand what I'm saying. If you see my point and still disagree with it, so be it.

 

[marks]

Because of how you seemed to be saying that 1 Timothy 4 is not referring to a mass departure from the faith before Christ returns.

Did I mention that passage? I don't recall doing so.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It's something you discern by looking at what's happening in the world. If what I see happening in the U.S. is any indication, then I'd say that time has already begun. But, we shouldn't automatically make assumptions about the world based on what is happening in the U.S.. But, I think similar things are happening elsewhere as well in relation to moral decline.

It sounds like everyone will have their own idea about it. That's my objection.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It sounds like everyone will have their own idea about it. That's my objection.

Much love!

I don't understand that. Should we disregard the following passage and not use it as a way to tell when Christ's return is near since we can't just point to one certain thing that will tell us that this is happening?

Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

 

[marks]

I don't understand that. Should we disregard the following passage and not use it as a way to tell when Christ's return is near since we can't just point to one certain thing that will tell us that this is happening?

Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Look at the difference between the passages.

"Many will depart from the faith". "The love of many shall grow cold", these are generalities that show conditions that will exist in the end of the age.

"That day will not come (the Day of the Lord) except the departure come first, and the man of sin be revealed. Both given as singular events, that without these events, the Day of the Lord cannot be said to have arrived.

Much love!

 

[KUWN]

The Lord employs the word parousia in reply to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:23-28, when He says, “if any man shall say unto you (before the one final future second coming of the Lord), Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son be. Wheresoever is the carcase, there will be gathered together the eagles.”

Christ immediately adds in Matthew 24:29-31, speaking of this one final future coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming [Gr. erchomai] in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Here is the gathering of God's people, the catching away, the rapture of the Church. This comes after the tribulation period.

Yes, the Second Coming is after the Tribulation

 

[ewq1938]

You said:

Did you even read what I said? My point was that it can't be referring to the rapture because Paul said the apostasia has to occur first before the rapture.

Paul said both the falling away AND the revealing of the man of sin have to happen before the rapture happens. The apostasia cannot be the rapture. It has a negative meaning, and cannot mean a physical departure. It is always, always a moral departure of some form.

 

[ewq1938]

But it also is used in the context of a physical departure.

No, it is not. Go ahead and show it if it is true. Keep in mind apostasia only appears twice in the bible.

 

[KUWN]

No, it is not. Go ahead and show it if it is true. Keep in mind apostasia only appears twice in the bible.

LSJ

ἀπο-στᾰσία, ἡ, late form for ἀπόστασις, defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3. 2. departure, disappearance, Olymp. in Mete.320.2. 3. distinguishing, c. gen., Elias in Cat.119.7. 4. distance, Archim.Aren.1.5.

see number 2 above. first entry. It is used several times as a departure from a location, from one place to another. There are many lexica you can check for APOSTASIA and see how it is used. Check a few lexica and let me know what you find. Many lexica will actually give you a link so you can actually see how it is used in ancient texts.

 

[ewq1938]

LSJ

ἀπο-στᾰσία, ἡ, late form for ἀπόστασις, defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3. 2. departure, disappearance, Olymp. in Mete.320.2. 3. distinguishing, c. gen., Elias in Cat.119.7. 4. distance, Archim.Aren.1.5.

see number 2 above. first entry.

That does not come the bible. Th.2.3 is listed to have the meaning of, "defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy".

The source you cite literally proves you wrong.

It is used several times as a departure from a location, from one place to another. There are many lexica you can check for APOSTASIA and see how it is used. Check a few lexica and let me know what you find. Many lexica will actually give you a link so you can actually see how it is used in ancient texts.

It is used differently in non-biblical texts, you know, ones God did not author. Those are not valid evidences for the biblical use of the word.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Yes, the Second Coming is after the Tribulation

Some Denominations and Enclaves Teach a Preterist Interpretation

The Preterist interpretation of the Great Apostasy views the events described in the New Testament, particularly in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, as having already occurred in the first century. Here are some key points:

1. Historical Fulfillment: Preterists believe that the Great Apostasy and the rise of the “man of lawlessness” were fulfilled during the first century, particularly around the time of the Jewish-Roman War and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE1. They often identify the “man of lawlessness” with figures like Nero or Titus, who played significant roles in the persecution of Christians and the destruction of the Temple1.
2. Abomination of Desolation: Preterists interpret the “abomination of desolation” mentioned in Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 9:27 as events that occurred during the Roman siege of Jerusalem. They point to historical records of Roman soldiers setting up idols and sacrificing in the Temple as fulfillment of these prophecies1.
3. Symbolic Language: Preterists argue that much of the apocalyptic language in the New Testament is symbolic and was meant to describe the imminent judgment on Jerusalem and the end of the Old Covenant age, rather than a distant future event1.
4. Early Church Context: This interpretation emphasizes the relevance of these prophecies to the early Christian communities who were experiencing persecution and upheaval. It suggests that the warnings about apostasy and false teachers were directly applicable to their immediate context1.

Preterism offers a perspective that sees the New Testament prophecies as largely fulfilled in the past, providing a historical lens through which to understand these texts. [Copilot]

 

[covenantee]

Here is Wycliffe's translation:

2 Thessalonians 2:3
[That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition,

Wycliffe defines "departing away" as dissension.

Did you know that the rapture is dissension?

In fact, the original 1382 Wycliffe translation does not even use the word "departing":

2 Thessalonians 2 1382 Wycliffe

3	No man disseyue you in ony manere. For but dissencioun come first, and the man of synne be schewid, the sonne of perdicioun,

Poor Ice T.

Exposed and humiliated again.

Did any pretribber reply to this? I haven't seen it.

 

[covenantee]

But it also is used in the context of a physical departure.

John Wycliffe defines your physical departure as "dissension".

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Wycliffe
[That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition,