To what does the APOSTASIA refer

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covenantee

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Here's Tommy Ice's comment regarding APOSTASIA meaning departure in old English:

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either
“departure” or “departing.”

They are as follows:
Wycliffe Bible (1384);
Tyndale Bible (1526);
Coverdale Bible (1535);
Cranmer Bible (1539);
Breeches Bible (1576);
Beza Bible (1583);
Geneva Bible (1608).

This supports the notion that the word truly means
“departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the
time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”

All of these translate APOSTASIA as departure. And these translations are hundreds of years before 1859.
I covered that in post 10.

The Bible translations which it is claimed contain the dogma were all written by Reformers from the 14th to 17th centuries. No Reformer ever heard of a pretrib rapture. Suffering as they were under the apostate papal antichrist, they would have found the idea risibly absurd.
 

IndianaRob

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In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, what is the "something"?
The “something” is old man that is crucified with Christ, the man of sin, the son of perdition. The one who sits in the temple of God until he falls away and Christ takes his place.
 

covenantee

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The “something” is old man that is crucified with Christ, the man of sin, the son of perdition. The one who sits in the temple of God until he falls away and Christ takes his place.
OK. So that's not a rapture.
 

IndianaRob

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OK. So that's not a rapture.
No it’s not the rapture it’s the day of Christ, the day of salvation of a non-believer. It’s a parallel to this verse.

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
 

WPM

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would like to show you something behind the scenes with the following observation. The debate of the meaning of APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2:3 must take into consideration 1 Tim 4:1 where Paul uses a verb, not a noun as in 2 Thes 2:3. Here are both verses as Paul wrote them:
2 Thes 2:3
μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,
1 Tim 4:1
Τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ῥητῶς λέγει ὅτι ἐν ὑστέροις καιροῖς ἀποστήσονταί τινες τῆς πίστεως,

You will note that Paul uses the verb ἀποστήσονταί when referring unambiguously to a departure from the faith. Note also that the modifier "from the faith" is needed because the verb by itself does not denote apostasy from the faith.

Note also that in 2 Thes 2:3 the articular noun ἡ ἀποστασία is used. Had Paul wanted to use a grammatical structure and lexical item to talk about the departing from the faith, he would have used the verb as he did in 1 Tim 4. What must be pointed out is that the APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2:3 has to be an event, not a process. If this is not understood, you will be confused about what this APOSTASIA is. The APOSTASIA and the man of lawlessness are both instantaneous events. In fact, one thing the APOSTASIA is not is a progressive happening. For example, Jude 3,4 tell of a departure from the faith, it happens over time, which would not be an event that is recognizable when it occurs.

So, 2 Thes 2:3 the APOSTASIA is a point in time event that is recognizable. Had Paul wanted to indicate it was a departure from the faith, he would have used the verb, not the noun.


It is for this reason, along with other important points, that ἡ ἀποστασία is a direct reference to the Pre-Trib Rapture. The importance of what was stated in this brief letter is to show that the APOSTASIA is an event, not something in progress, and that Paul uses the verb in 1 Tim 4:1.
I would be interested in other Pre-Tribbers thoughts on this.
The end-time Church is portrayed as an apathetic Church; a Church that is going through the motions, a Church that has lost its spark. It has lost its way. It is a Church that has all the outward form without the inward reality. It has basically lost its zeal. It is uncommitted and unfaithful. It is impotent and faithless.

II Thessalonians 2:1-8 says, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Christ is at hand is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [Gr. apostasía or apostasy] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth (or restraineth) that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [Gr. parousia].

This tells me that there is going to be a great decline within the Church prior to Jesus return.

Strong's explains: defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

Thayer explains: a falling away, defection, apostasy

Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo-histasthai to stand — more at stand

No wonder Jesus asked in Luke 18:8 talking about the day of His return: when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”

Obviously by this question we can deduce: Faith is going to be rare when He comes.

They say that you judge a man by his questions not by his answers because questions come from the heart. Here is a question from the heart of Christ – who is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Jesus said in Matt 24:12: “iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.”

As much as I would love to tell you that things are going to get better out there the Bible says the opposite.

2 Timothy 3:5 describes last days church members as: Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
 

IndianaRob

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The end-time Church is portrayed as an apathetic Church; a Church that is going through the motions, a Church that has lost its spark. It has lost its way. It is a Church that has all the outward form without the inward reality. It has basically lost its zeal. It is uncommitted and unfaithful. It is impotent and faithless.

II Thessalonians 2:1-8 says, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Christ is at hand is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [Gr. apostasía or apostasy] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth (or restraineth) that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [Gr. parousia].

This tells me that there is going to be a great decline within the Church prior to Jesus return.

Strong's explains: defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

Thayer explains: a falling away, defection, apostasy

Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo-histasthai to stand — more at stand

No wonder Jesus asked in Luke 18:8 talking about the day of His return: when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”

Obviously by this question we can deduce: Faith is going to be rare when He comes.

They say that you judge a man by his questions not by his answers because questions come from the heart. Here is a question from the heart of Christ – who is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Jesus said in Matt 24:12: “iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.”

As much as I would love to tell you that things are going to get better out there the Bible says the opposite.

2 Timothy 3:5 describes last days church members as: Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
So you really think the body of Christ corrupts? Where does this come from in scripture?
 

covenantee

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Here's Tommy Ice's comment regarding APOSTASIA meaning departure in old English:

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either
“departure” or “departing.”

They are as follows:
Wycliffe Bible (1384);
Tyndale Bible (1526);
Coverdale Bible (1535);
Cranmer Bible (1539);
Breeches Bible (1576);
Beza Bible (1583);
Geneva Bible (1608).

This supports the notion that the word truly means
“departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the
time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”

All of these translate APOSTASIA as departure. And these translations are hundreds of years before 1859.

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing away as a synonym of dissension thus means departing away from the faith, i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe identified the man of sin as the apostate papal antichrist, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which of course had never occurred.

From Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which of course had never occurred..
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who considered the word to mean anything other than departure from the faith.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3



Of the several dozen English Bible versions in existence, not a single version translates "apostasia" as "rapture", but rather as apostasy, falling away, or the equivalent.

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its eventual apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.
 
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Johann

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Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing away as a synonym of dissension thus means departing away from the faith, i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe identified the man of sin as the apostate papal antichrist, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which of course had never occurred.

From Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which of course had never occurred..
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who considered the word to mean anything other than departure from the faith.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3



Of the several dozen English Bible versions in existence, not a single version translates "apostasia" as "rapture", but rather as apostasy, falling away, or the equivalent.

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its eventual apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.
I have this inclination you would go far for God's glory and that of Jesus Christ.
You certainly seem to do your research well.
J.
 

KUWN

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Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing away as a synonym of dissension thus means departing away from the faith, i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe identified the man of sin as the apostate papal antichrist, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which of course had never occurred.

From Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which of course had never occurred..
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who considered the word to mean anything other than departure from the faith.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3



Of the several dozen English Bible versions in existence, not a single version translates "apostasia" as "rapture", but rather as apostasy, falling away, or the equivalent.

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its eventual apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

You directed our attention to the following when discussing the discessio in the Vulgate:

discessĭo, ōnis, f. discedo.
I. (Very rarely), a separation of married persons, Ter. And. 3, 3, 36; “of the people into parties (with seditio),” Gell. 2, 12: “stellarum et discessiones et coetus,” separations and conjunctions, id. 14, 1, 8; cf.: “plebei a patribus, et aliae dissensiones,” Sall. H. Fragm. 1, 9 Dietsch.—
II. A going away, departure, removal.

The first definition is used "very rarely."
The second use is departure, removal, going away (these are 3 excellent words for the Rapture)

Now I have already said that the definition of APOSTASIA is primarily falling away from ___________. Fill in the blank, which i would say is likely filled in with falling away from the faith, which is what you say it means. I don't deny that. ALL Post Tribbers believe this. To say that APOSTASIA is used for a departure of any kind is demonstrably true. It has that usage, and most cognate verbs used in the NT are clearly a departure, not a religious or spiritual departure, just an actual departure. Remember that nouns derive their meaning from the verb. Many Post Tribbers say you can't use the verb form to get meaning for the noun form, and that is not true.

You wrote: Of the several dozen English Bible versions in existence, not a single version translates "apostasia" as "rapture", but rather as apostasy, falling away, or the equivalent.

This is to be expected, the Pre Tribbers however don't translate it into English as Rapture, but as Departure. This is how the early English translation translated it. See Tommy Ice's article on this. He sites 7 English translations from hundreds of years before 1859. What you would need to show is the departure means apostasy in our usage today of this term. I don't think it can be done.
 

covenantee

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I have this inclination you would go far for God's glory and that of Jesus Christ.
You certainly seem to do your research well.
J.
Thanks bro. I much appreciated your contribution relating to the early church.
 
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covenantee

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You directed our attention to the following when discussing the discessio in the Vulgate:
I directed your attention to this:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Your claim that I directed your attention to this:
discessĭo, ōnis, f. discedo.
I. (Very rarely), a separation of married persons, Ter. And. 3, 3, 36; “of the people into parties (with seditio),” Gell. 2, 12: “stellarum et discessiones et coetus,” separations and conjunctions, id. 14, 1, 8; cf.: “plebei a patribus, et aliae dissensiones,” Sall. H. Fragm. 1, 9 Dietsch.—
II. A going away, departure, removal.

is false. That content does not appear at all in my post.


This is to be expected, the Pre Tribbers however don't translate it into English as Rapture, but as Departure. This is how the early English translation translated it. See Tommy Ice's article on this. He sites 7 English translations from hundreds of years before 1859. What you would need to show is the departure means apostasy in our usage today of this term. I don't think it can be done.
I've explained in detail how and why seven Reformation translators could not possibly be aware of a "doctrine" which would not be invented for another two centuries until Darby's dispensational futurism.

Thus, the Reformers' understanding of departure was exclusively and unanimously a departure from the true faith.

Falling away, not flying away. :laughing:
 
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TribulationSigns

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2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4
  • "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
  • Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."
It is a time when men remove God's Holy Word from the Holy Temple (Church) and make their own words through false doctrines and entertainment as the ultimate authority of the Church. This falling away [apostasia] must take place first, and the false prophets and christs, the sinful man (man of sin) rule in God's house as if he is God. This is how Satan is revealed THROUGH his false prophets and christs in churches all over the world, like Joel Osteen, Steven Furtick, Ceflo Dollar, Johnathan Prince, etc. At such time when we see this in our Church, the man of God, Elect, must depart out to avoid taking part of the unfaithful whore's plagues that God sent upon her. Shortly afterward, Christ returns and the rapture of the Elect will take place on the seventh trumpet which is the "last trump."

Rev 11:13-15
(13) And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
(14) The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 

ewq1938

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You directed our attention to the following when discussing the discessio in the Vulgate:

That's a different word and a different meaning so it is invalid. The only word that matters is apostasia and it means a moral departure, a falling away in a negative sense which is why it means an Apostasy. Part of how the Apostasy happens is false doctrines like the pre-trib rapture which teaches that one would take part in the apostasia.
 
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KUWN

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The problem with this is that Paul indicates that the falling away (apostasia) occurs first before Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him. So, if the apostasia referred to the rapture then Paul would be saying the rapture has to occur first before the rapture, which obviously doesn't make sense.

The Greek word apostosia is only used in one other verse.

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

In this verse it refers to Jews forsaking or falling away (departing from) the teachings of Moses. I believe it should be understood similarly in 2 Thess 2:3 as referring to a mass falling away or departure from the faith.

Jesus taught that the same thing would happen before His coming at the end of the age, so it fits what Jesus taught as well.

Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

You said:

"In this verse it refers to Jews forsaking or falling away (departing from) the teachings of Moses. I believe it should be understood similarly in 2 Thess 2:3 as referring to a mass falling away or departure from the faith."

The problem as I see it is that departing from the faith is not mention in 2 Thes or 1 Thes. Also, Paul uses the verb APOSTAMAI to refer to the departing from the faith, not the noun, as here. And Paul finds it necessary to add to the word APOSTAMAI "from the faith" to indicate what kind of falling away he is referring to. See my post on APOSTAMAI out here.

So in 2 Thes 2.3 Paul does not use a modifying phrase (such as "from the faith" or "from Moses") and does use the articular noun in stead of the verb. Without a modifying phrase to APOSTASIA, it has no meaning of rebellion, apostasy, or departure from the faith. I am going off memory here but the cognate verb of APOSTASIA is found 15 or so times in the NT, and 12 or so of those refer to a physical departure. This is why many non Pre Tribbers reject the use of the verb as supplying a meaning to APOSTASIA. This rejection of the verb is a semantical adnormality.
 
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Johann

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You said:

"In this verse it refers to Jews forsaking or falling away (departing from) the teachings of Moses. I believe it should be understood similarly in 2 Thess 2:3 as referring to a mass falling away or departure from the faith."

The problem as I see it is that departing from the faith is not mention in 2 Thes or 1 Thes. Also, Paul uses the verb APOSTAMAI to refer to the departing from the faith, not the noun, as here. And Paul finds it necessary to add to the word APOSTAMAI "from the faith" to indicate what kind of falling away he is referring to. See my post on APOSTAMAI out here.

So in 2 Thes 2.3 Paul does not use a modifying phrase (such as "from the faith" or "from Moses") and does use the articular noun in stead of the verb. Without a modifying phrase to APOSTASIA, it has no meaning of rebellion, apostasy, or departure from the faith. I am going off memory here but the cognate verb of APOSTASIA is found 15 or so times in the NT, and 12 or so of those refer to a physical departure. This is why many non Pre Tribbers reject the use of the verb as supplying a meaning to APOSTASIA. This rejection of the verb is a semantical adnormality.
I don't believe we are still on this topic-here, listen to Barnes.


For that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first - Until an apostasy (ἀποστασία apostasia) shall have occurred - the great apostasy. There is scarcely any passage of the New Testament which has given occasion to greater diversity of opinion than this.

Though the reference seems to be plain, and there is scarcely any prophecy of the Bible apparently more obvious and easy in its general interpretation; yet it is proper to mention some of the opinions which have been entertained of it.

Some have referred it to a great apostasy from the Christian church,
particularly on account of persecution, which would occur before the destruction of Jerusalem. The “coming of the Lord” they suppose refers to the destruction of the holy city, and according to this, the meaning is, that there would be a great apostasy before that event would take place. Of this opinion was Vitringa, who refers the “apostasy” to a great defection from the faith which took place between the time of Nero and Trajan.

Whitby also refers it to an event which was to take place before the destruction of Jerusalem, and supposes that the apostasy would consist in a return from the Christian to the Jewish faith by multitudes of professed converts. The “man of sin,” according to him, means the Jewish nation, so characterized on account of its eminent wickedness.

Hammond explains the apostasy by the defection to the Gnostics, by the arts of Simon Magus, whom he supposes to be the man of sin, and by the “day of the Lord” he also understands the destruction of Jerusalem.

Grotius takes Caius Caesar or Caligula, to be the man of sin, and by the apostasy he understands his abominable wickedness. In the beginning of his government, he says, his plans of iniquity were concealed, and the hopes of all were excited in regard to his reign; but his secret iniquity was subsequently “revealed,” and his true character understood.

Wetstein understands by the “man of sin,” that it referred to Titus and the Flavian house. He says that he does not understand it of the Roman Pontiff, who “is not one such as the demonstrative pronoun thrice repeated designates, and who neither sits in the temple of God, nor calls himself God, nor Caius, nor Simon Gioriae, nor any Jewish impostor, nor Simon Magus.”

Koppe refers it to the King mentioned in Dan_11:36. According to him, the reference is to a great apostasy of the Jews from the worship of God, and the “man of sin” is the Jewish people.

Others have supposed that the reference is to Muhammed, and that the main characteristics of the prophecy may be found in him.
Of the Papists, a part affirm that the apostasy is the falling away from Rome in the time of the Reformation, but the greater portion suppose that the allusion is to Antichrist, who, they say, will appear in the world before the great day of judgment, to combat religion and the saints. See these opinions stated at length, and examined, in Dr. Newton on the Prophecies, Dissertation xxii.

Some more recent expositors have referred it to Napoleon Bonaparte, and some (as Oldshausen) suppose that it refers to some one who has not yet appeared, in whom all the characteristics here specified will be found united.

Most Protestant commentators have referred it to the great apostasy under the papacy, and, by the “man of sin,” they suppose there is allusion to the Roman Pontiff, the Pope. It is evident that we are in better circumstances to understand the passage than those were who immediately succeeded the apostles.

Eighteen hundred years have passed (written circa 1880’s) away since the Epistle was written, and the “day of the Lord” has not yet come, and we have an opportunity of inquiring, whether in all that long tract of time any one man can be found, or any series of men have arisen, to whom the description here given is applicable. If so, it is in accordance with all the proper rules of interpreting prophecy, to make such an application. If it is fairly applicable to the papacy, and cannot be applied in its great features to anything else, it is proper to regard it as having such an original reference. Happily, the expressions which are used by the apostle are, in themselves, not difficult of interpretation, and all that the expositor has to do is, to ascertain whether in any one great apostasy all the things here mentioned have occurred. If so, it is fair to apply the prophecy to such an event; if not so, we must wait still for its fulfillment.

The word rendered “falling away” (ἀποστασία apostasia, apostasy), is of so general a character, that it may be applied to any departure from the faith as it was received in the time of the apostles. It occurs in the New Testament only here and in Act_21:21, where it is rendered “to forsake” - “thou teachest all the Jews which are among us to forsake Moses” - apostasy from Moses - ἀποστασίαν ἀπὸ Μωῦσέως apostasian apo Mōuseōs.

The word means a departing from, or a defection; see the verb used in 1Ti_4:1, “Some shall depart from the faith” - ἀποστήσονται apostēsontai;

1Ti 4:1 The Coming Apostasy
¶ Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will depart [ἀφίστημι] from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,


compare the notes on that passage; see also Heb_3:12; Luk_8:13; Act_5:37. The reference here is evidently to some general falling away, or to some great religious apostasy that was to occur, and which would be under one head, leader, or dynasty, and which would involve many in the same departure from the faith, and in the same destruction.

The use of the article here, “the apostasy” (Greek), Erasmus remarks, “signifies that great and before-predicted apostasy.” It is evidently emphatic, showing that there had been a reference to this before, or that they understood well that there was to be such an apostasy. Paul says 2Th_2:5, that when he was with them, he had told them of these things. The writers in the New Testament often speak of such a defection under the name of Antichrist; see Rev_13:14; 1Jo_2:18, 1Jo_2:22; 1Jo_4:3; 2Jo_1:7.

J.
 

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You said:

"In this verse it refers to Jews forsaking or falling away (departing from) the teachings of Moses. I believe it should be understood similarly in 2 Thess 2:3 as referring to a mass falling away or departure from the faith."

The problem as I see it is that departing from the faith is not mention in 2 Thes or 1 Thes. Also, Paul uses the verb APOSTAMAI to refer to the departing from the faith, not the noun, as here. And Paul finds it necessary to add to the word APOSTAMAI "from the faith" to indicate what kind of falling away he is referring to. See my post on APOSTAMAI out here.

So in 2 Thes 2.3 Paul does not use a modifying phrase (such as "from the faith" or "from Moses") and does use the articular noun in stead of the verb. Without a modifying phrase to APOSTASIA, it has no meaning of rebellion, apostasy, or departure from the faith. I am going off memory here but the cognate verb of APOSTASIA is found 15 or so times in the NT, and 12 or so of those refer to a physical departure. This is why many non Pre Tribbers reject the use of the verb as supplying a meaning to APOSTASIA. This rejection of the verb is a semantical adnormality.
I'm completely confident that every English Bible translator got it right.
 
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