To the only God our Savior

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

GeneZ

Member
Aug 20, 2023
262
93
28
75
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not very many religious Jews abandon Jewish monotheism, but some do. Jesus of Nazareth didn’t, and he’s the one to keep our eyes on.

In a way, you're thinking like a Muslim stuck 2000 years in the past.

Jesus had to come as a Jew under the very Law He was to fulfill.


There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female,
for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28​
For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. What counts is a new creation." Galatians 6:15​


The Greek of "new creation" meant something new that did not exist prior to it being created.
In other words? We are not commanded to live as OT Jews ...



Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold,
all things have become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17​
I am neither Jew nor Gentile.
I am a new creation in Christ.

You want to be a Jew.

 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,466
13,529
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
In a way, you're thinking like a Muslim stuck 2000 years in the past.

Jesus had to come as a Jew under the very Law He was to fulfill.


There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female,
for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28​
For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. What counts is a new creation." Galatians 6:15​


The Greek of "new creation" meant something new that did not exist prior to it being created.
In other words? We are not commanded to live as OT Jews ...



Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold,
all things have become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17​
I am neither Jew nor Gentile.
I am a new creation in Christ.

You want to be a Jew.


I’m a Jew inwardly (Romans 2:29) and you’ve decided against the Messiah’s Jewish monotheism.

The wall between Jews and Gentiles has been torn down. There are Jews and Gentiles in the church, just as there are males and females in the church. You might tell me that you’re neither male nor female, but I doubt it. Your interpretation of Galatians 6:15 isn’t persuasive.

The Messiah is still a Jew (Hebrews 13:8). His monotheism looks like the correct one to me. The rules allow you (and others) to attack it. By all means, continue doing so. I’m always open to re-examining my faith.

P.S.

I’m about to turn in for the night. Before I do, a book title entered my mind and I wanted to share it with you -> When A Jew Rules the World. You‘ve said that you aren’t a Jew anymore, and I believe that is true.

I also believe it is true that a Jew is sitting at this very moment at the right hand of God in heaven and that he will return and rule the world from his father David’s throne in Jerusalem. That Jew is Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, Son of the living God.

When a Jew rules the world. I hope you’ll think about that. I do, constantly. Maranatha.
 
Last edited:

GeneZ

Member
Aug 20, 2023
262
93
28
75
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I’m a Jew inwardly (Romans 2:29) and you’ve decided against the Messiah’s Jewish monotheism.

The wall between Jews and Gentiles has been torn down. There are Jews and Gentiles in the church, just as there are males and females in the church. You might tell me that you’re neither male nor female, but I doubt it. Your interpretation of Galatians 6:15 isn’t persuasive.

The Messiah is still a Jew (Hebrews 13:8). His monotheism looks like the correct one to me. The rules allow you (and others) to attack it. By all means, continue doing so. I’m always open to re-examining my faith.

P.S.

I’m about to turn in for the night. Before I do, a book title entered my mind and I wanted to share it with you -> When A Jew Rules the World. You‘ve said that you aren’t a Jew anymore, and I believe that is true.

I also believe it is true that a Jew is sitting at this very moment at the right hand of God in heaven and that he will return and rule the world from his father David’s throne in Jerusalem. That Jew is Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, Son of the living God.

When a Jew rules the world. I hope you’ll think about that. I do, constantly. Maranatha.
Alright... you're going to try to wear me out with stubbornness.

Yet,,, The fact remains...

Before the Incarnation, the soul of Jesus was in Heaven in union with Deity as the Lord God of Israel.


Here are some OT passages that reveal the Lord God was manifested as both Soul and Jehovah.
Keep in mind, God is 'spirit.' Not, 'soul.' Soul is a different nature.

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.
'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​
And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah,
so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16​
Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one,
and anyone loving violence, his soul certainly hates." Psalm 11:5​


They just read through it and never made any connection.
Some dared to say it was an anthropopathism realizing that soul can not be deity!
Just like you have been doing.

Jehovah + Soul = two natures!

He was in Heaven as God before He came to earth!


I’m a Jew inwardly (Romans 2:29) and you’ve decided against the Messiah’s Jewish monotheism.

You need a little context....


Romans 2:27-29​
The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who,
even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.
No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit,
not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.


Paul was relating his thoughts towards Jews. Proud unregenerate Jews, who were in the line of Abraham.
Paul was not directing his thoughts to gentiles, telling them they can be Jews inwardly.

He was rebuking Jews. Telling them that their physical attributes did not make them a Jew.
But the inward man (regenerated) is what makes a Jew, a real Jew. Someone born in the line of Abraham.
 
Last edited:

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,466
13,529
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Alright... you're going to try to wear me out with stubbornness.

Yet,,, The fact remains...

Before the Incarnation, the soul of Jesus was in Heaven in union with Deity as the Lord God of Israel.


Here are some OT passages that reveal the Lord God was manifested as both Soul and Jehovah.
Keep in mind, God is 'spirit.' Not, 'soul.' Soul is a different nature.

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.
'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​
And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah,
so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16​
Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one,
and anyone loving violence, his soul certainly hates." Psalm 11:5​


They just read through it and never made any connection.
Some dared to say it was an anthropopathism realizing that soul can not be deity!
Just like you have been doing.

Jehovah + Soul = two natures!

He was in Heaven as God before He came to earth!




You need a little context....


Romans 2:27-29​
The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who,
even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.
No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit,
not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.


Paul was relating his thoughts towards Jews. Proud unregenerate Jews, who were in the line of Abraham.
Paul was not directing his thoughts to gentiles, telling them they can be Jews inwardly.

He was rebuking Jews. Telling them that their physical attributes did not make them a Jew.
But the inward man (regenerated) is what makes a Jew, a real Jew. Someone born in the line of Abraham.

You’ve got it backwards.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,466
13,529
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
“To be ignorant about these debates is to be ignorant of how we Christians came to be who we are. To know about them is to have a fuller understanding of our faith and what it means for our lives today.”

(Douglas W. Johnson, The Great Jesus Debates, p. 12)

No Christian teacher should ever want those in his or her care to live in ignorance about the history of Christianity.

“It has been said that history is written by the winners. This remark holds true for the present volume. The main characters treated will be primarily those whose ideas and beliefs emerged victorious in the theological battles.”

(Ibid., p. 13)

That such theological battles happened in the church is beyond dispute.

I would like for my readers to recall at this point what of one of those major characters - Gregory of Nyssa - said about what the ideas and beliefs of the “winners” did to Jewish monotheism - it destroyed it.

This is a historical fact which should be ingrained in the mind of every human being. I’m very interested in finding out whether or not the trinitarian author addresses this point in his book. I don’t think he will but he might. I hope that he does.

P.S.

There is no mention of Gregory of Nyssa on the timeline the author uses. In fairness to him, he does tell his readers - “I have attempted to keep matters as simple as possible. Some scholars may object that I have included the wrong individuals and excluded the most relevant ones. It is a judgment call.“ That’s a little disconcerting but at least he draws our attention to it.

The book doesn’t contain an index of characters. Gregory of Nyssa may yet be included in the 4th century narrative.

P.S.S.

He does, in a very small section dedicated to discussing the Cappadocians (pp. 99-101). Perhaps then he will be elsewhere also.

”Theologically and philosophically the Cappadocians were dedicated followers of Origen and his Platonic understanding of reality, but they also took for granted the correctness of the Nicaean formula.”

(Douglas W. Johnson, The Great Jesus Debates, p. 99)

Important background information -> Gregory of Nyssa (and the others) were dedicated followers of Origen and Plato; Anti-Jewish monotheism.

The prophets, the Messiah, and the apostles - all of whom are Jewish monotheists - weren’t dedicated followers of Origen and Plato; Pro-Jewish monotheism.

”The Christian concept of God, argues Gregory of Nyssa, is neither the polytheism of the Greeks nor the monotheism of the Jews and consequently it must be true...”

(Henry Austryn Wolfson, The Philosophy of the Church Fathers, Vol. 1, p. 362-363)

“The Christian concept of God” for Gregory of Nyssa is what we know as historical orthodox trinitarianism.

”... for ‘the truth passes in between these two conceptions, destroying each heresy …’”

(Ibid.

Gregory not only calls polytheism heresy, he calls Jewish monotheism heresy.

The prophets, the Messiah, and the apostles - all of whom are Jewish monotheists - do not call Jewish monotheism heresy.

”…’and yet, accepting what is useful to it from each.’”

(Ibid.)

Gregory acknowledges that historical orthodox trinitarianism appropriated and made use of some parts of what he calls their heresy. When is the last time your pastor or Sunday School teacher informed you about that? Mine never did.

“‘The Jewish dogma is destroyed by the acceptance of the Word and by the belief in the Spirit, …’”

(Ibid.)

As if the Jewish monotheists themselves - the prophets, the Messiah, the apostles, and even the earliest Christians - didn’t accept the Word and believe in the Spirit.

Gregory, speaking on behalf of historical orthodox trinitarianism, dedicated follower of Origen and Plato, arrives at a different understanding from that of the Jewish monotheists - the prophets, the Messiah, the apostles, and the earliest Christians; an understanding which he acknowledges destroys their understanding.

My interest is in what historical orthodox trinitarianism did to Jewish monotheism, not what it did to the polytheism of the Greeks but I’ll finish his statement for the benefit of my readers.

”’… , while the polytheistic error of the Greek school is made to vanish by the unity of the nature abrogating the imagination of plurality.’”

(Ibid.)

Gregory loves Jesus. He doesn’t love Jesus’ monotheism. He is pleased with the destruction of “the Jewish dogma”.

***

”Jesus’ beliefs, therefore, remained those of a first-century Jew, committed to the coming kingdom of Israel’s god. He did not waver in his loyalty to Jewish doctrine. But his beliefs were those of a first-century Jew who believed that the kingdom was coming in and through his own work. His loyalty to Israel’s cherished beliefs therefore took the form of critique and renovation with; of challenge to traditions and institutions whose purpose, he believed, (like prophets long before him, and radicals in his own day), had been grievously corrupted and distorted; and of new proposals which, though without precedent, were never mere innovations. They always claimed the high ground: fulfillment, completion, consummation.

We can summarize Jesus’ beliefs in terms of three most fundamental Jewish beliefs: monotheism, election, and eschatology.

Jesus believed there was one God who made the world, and who called Israel to be his people; that this one God had promised to be with his people, and guide them to their destiny, their new exodus; that his presence, guidance and ultimately salvation were symbolized, brought into reality, in and through Temple, Torah, Wisdom, Word and Spirit. He was a first-century Jewish monotheist.”

(N.T. Wright, Jesus And The Victory of God, p. 652)

Jesus didn't destroy what he was and is.

“Jewish monotheism, the Jewish dogma, was destroyed” (Gregory of Nyssa). Jesus didn’t destroy Jewish monotheism, the Jewish dogma.

“Jewish monotheism is heresy” (Gregory of Nyssa). Jesus was and is a Jewish monotheist. I’m a Jewish monotheist.

Gregory would love me if he knew me. He wouldn’t love my monotheism.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,466
13,529
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
I enjoy reading the ECF’s (with one exception) and I encourage everyone to read them. All of them.

There is only one of the Ante-Nicene fathers I don’t enjoy reading -> Origen.

Gregory of Nyssa was a dedicated follower of Origen. I’m not.

Origen. Condemned as a heretic by the church.

Irony.
 

GeneZ

Member
Aug 20, 2023
262
93
28
75
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No verse actually says this. Yet, you call it a fact.

John 6:60-62


On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

.......
 

GeneZ

Member
Aug 20, 2023
262
93
28
75
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
”Theologically and philosophically the Cappadocians were dedicated followers of Origen and his Platonic understanding of reality, but they also took for granted the correctness of the Nicaean formula.”

(Douglas W. Johnson, The Great Jesus Debates, p. 99)

Important background information -> Gregory of Nyssa (and the others) were dedicated followers of Origen and Plato; Anti-Jewish monotheism.

The prophets, the Messiah, and the apostles - all of whom are Jewish monotheists - weren’t dedicated followers of Origen and Plato; Pro-Jewish monotheism.

”The Christian concept of God, argues Gregory of Nyssa, is neither the polytheism of the Greeks nor the monotheism of the Jews and consequently it must be true...”

(Henry Austryn Wolfson, The Philosophy of the Church Fathers, Vol. 1, p. 362-363)

“The Christian concept of God” for Gregory of Nyssa is what we know as historical orthodox trinitarianism.

”... for ‘the truth passes in between these two conceptions, destroying each heresy …’”

(Ibid.

Gregory not only calls polytheism heresy, he calls Jewish monotheism heresy.

The prophets, the Messiah, and the apostles - all of whom are Jewish monotheists - do not call Jewish monotheism heresy.

”…’and yet, accepting what is useful to it from each.’”

(Ibid.)

Gregory acknowledges that historical orthodox trinitarianism appropriated and made use of some parts of what he calls their heresy. When is the last time your pastor or Sunday School teacher informed you about that? Mine never did.

“‘The Jewish dogma is destroyed by the acceptance of the Word and by the belief in the Spirit, …’”

(Ibid.)

As if the Jewish monotheists themselves - the prophets, the Messiah, the apostles, and even the earliest Christians - didn’t accept the Word and believe in the Spirit.

Gregory, speaking on behalf of historical orthodox trinitarianism, dedicated follower of Origen and Plato, arrives at a different understanding from that of the Jewish monotheists - the prophets, the Messiah, the apostles, and the earliest Christians; an understanding which he acknowledges destroys their understanding.

My interest is in what historical orthodox trinitarianism did to Jewish monotheism, not what it did to the polytheism of the Greeks but I’ll finish his statement for the benefit of my readers.

”’… , while the polytheistic error of the Greek school is made to vanish by the unity of the nature abrogating the imagination of plurality.’”

(Ibid.)

Gregory loves Jesus. He doesn’t love Jesus’ monotheism. He is pleased with the destruction of “the Jewish dogma”.

***

”Jesus’ beliefs, therefore, remained those of a first-century Jew, committed to the coming kingdom of Israel’s god. He did not waver in his loyalty to Jewish doctrine. But his beliefs were those of a first-century Jew who believed that the kingdom was coming in and through his own work. His loyalty to Israel’s cherished beliefs therefore took the form of critique and renovation with; of challenge to traditions and institutions whose purpose, he believed, (like prophets long before him, and radicals in his own day), had been grievously corrupted and distorted; and of new proposals which, though without precedent, were never mere innovations. They always claimed the high ground: fulfillment, completion, consummation.

We can summarize Jesus’ beliefs in terms of three most fundamental Jewish beliefs: monotheism, election, and eschatology.

Jesus believed there was one God who made the world, and who called Israel to be his people; that this one God had promised to be with his people, and guide them to their destiny, their new exodus; that his presence, guidance and ultimately salvation were symbolized, brought into reality, in and through Temple, Torah, Wisdom, Word and Spirit. He was a first-century Jewish monotheist.”

(N.T. Wright, Jesus And The Victory of God, p. 652)

Jesus didn't destroy what he was and is.

“Jewish monotheism, the Jewish dogma, was destroyed” (Gregory of Nyssa). Jesus didn’t destroy Jewish monotheism, the Jewish dogma.

“Jewish monotheism is heresy” (Gregory of Nyssa). Jesus was and is a Jewish monotheist. I’m a Jewish monotheist.

Gregory would love me if he knew me. He wouldn’t love my monotheism.
You are in love with yourself... it seems.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,466
13,529
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
You are in love with yourself... it seems.

“The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

(Matthew 23:39, NABRE)

***

Meanwhile, you neglected to address the actual point made in my post.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
18,228
7,598
113
56
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 6:60-62
Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
.......
This is a great example of eisegesis. You are attempting to read into Scripture what is not there. This is my point. You stated something as a fact but is not actually stated anywhere in Scripture.

So, you must resort to rationalizing what you assert. The question you ask allows for an answer OTHER than what you claim. @Matthias is better at me in elaborating on the logos of God is in the mind of God before it becomes manifest. This means our existence is in the works, not in a metaphysical existence. This is consistent with

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart”
Jeremiah 1:5
 

GeneZ

Member
Aug 20, 2023
262
93
28
75
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
“The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

(Matthew 23:39, NABRE)

***

Meanwhile, you neglected to address the actual point made in my post.
I was addressing the point that was being made without you realizing it....
 

GeneZ

Member
Aug 20, 2023
262
93
28
75
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is a great example of eisegesis. You are attempting to read into Scripture what is not there. This is my point. You stated something as a fact but is not actually stated anywhere in Scripture.

So, you must resort to rationalizing what you assert. The question you ask allows for an answer OTHER than what you claim. @Matthias is better at me in elaborating on the logos of God is in the mind of God before it becomes manifest. This means our existence is in the works, not in a metaphysical existence. This is consistent with

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart”
Jeremiah 1:5



Eisegesis?

So you learned a word. Now learn how to use it properly!
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,466
13,529
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
“Judaism has always been rigorously Unitarian.”

(The Jewish Encyclopedia, “Deism”)

 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,466
13,529
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
“The monotheism of the Jews was then, as it still is, unitarian.”

(Leonard Hodgson, Christian Faith and Practice, p. 74)

The monotheism of the prophets, of the Messiah, and of the apostles is Jewish monotheism. It is now what it always has been, unitarian.

The God of Jewish monotheists, Yahweh, is only one person, the Father. For those who either don’t know it or don’t believe it, listen to trinitarian scholar Dr. Ben Witherington - “Jesus wasn’t, and isn’t, Yahweh. Put another way, he’s not the heavenly Father. He is someone other than the heavenly Father.”

Is Jewish monotheism heresy? Are Jewish monotheists heretics? Ask Gregory of Nyssa. Listen to what he says.

Then look at Jesus of Nazareth. Always look at, listen to, believe and obey Jesus of Nazareth.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,466
13,529
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Jewish monotheists -> “Other Faith”. Everyone here should be able to agree with that.

There’s nothing at all unreasonable about someone who self-identifies as a Jewish monotheist being required by Board policy to register as “Other Faith” and abide by the rules in order to be a member.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,466
13,529
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
“Abraham, Moses and Elijah were all equally zealous monotheists and in none of their successors was there any retrogression from the highest and purest form of unitarian belief.”

(Hastings Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, “Judaism”)

Heretic or not, I’m in good company.
 

GeneZ

Member
Aug 20, 2023
262
93
28
75
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So, what was Jesus’ religion? The simple answer is: Judaism. Jesus was a rabbi, a teacher of Judaism.”

He "was."

Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh.
Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh,
yet now we know Him thus no longer." 2 Corinthians 5:16



I think it's time to grow up.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,466
13,529
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
He "was."

Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh.
Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh,
yet now we know Him thus no longer." 2 Corinthians 5:16

Jesus was bodily resurrected from gravedom, and he’s still a Jew.

I think it's time to grow up.

Then do it.