To the only God our Savior

[Matthias]

Hate to break it to you.
Stop assuming about Jews.

Except for the very religious (mostly superstitious).
They will glance through the Bible. Not read it.

We could also say, stop assuming about Christians.
Except for the very religious.
They will glance through the Bible. Not read it.

The statistics about Bible reading among Christians are appalling.

That is why I started my thread on reading the Bible regularly. That is why I speak incessantly about the need to read the Bible.

 

[GeneZ]

We could also say, stop assuming about Christians.
They will glance through the Bible. Not read it.

Not like Jews do. I was one.

What makes you think they are Christian? Because they grew up in a Christian home and conformed outwardly?

Yes... There are those who claim to be Christian, who today have become like the Jews of the past who rejected Jesus.
Those who allege to be Christian, but can not grasp the reality of having a spiritual relationship with God.

Look at certain Jews in Jesus day who thought they were the ones favored by God, and that Jesus was working with the Devil.
We have Christians today who fall into the same trap of hypocrisy.

 

[Matthias]

Not like Jews do. I was one.

What makes you think they are Christian? Because they grew up in a Christian home and conformed outwardly?

Yes... There are those who claim to be Christian, who today have become like the Jews of the past who rejected Jesus.
Those who allege to be Christian, but can not grasp the reality of having a spiritual relationship with God.

Look at certain Jews in Jesus day who thought they were the ones favored by God, and that Jesus was working with the Devil.
We have Christians today who fall into the same trap of hypocrisy.

I especially like your point about “certain Jews”. It’s a fair analogy that you’re making.

 

[Matthias]

When I see and hear Jesus, I see and hear God @GeneZ. So do you.

Jesus is God and man. That’s common ground for us.

How to understand and explain it is what the early church struggled with.

Eventually in that struggle, the Jewish dogma - my dogma - was destroyed.

 

[soberxp]

When I see and hear Jesus, I see and hear God @GeneZ. So do you.

Jesus is God and man. That’s common ground for us.

How to understand and explain it is what the early church struggled with.

Eventually in that struggle, the Jewish dogma - my dogma - was destroyed.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[Matthias]

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Despite the fact that he says that his God and the God of his followers is only one person, there are myriads of people who insist that his God (and theirs) is not only one person.

That I’m outside the pale of Christian orthodoxy and inside the pale of Jewish orthodoxy is a fact.

The church had to deal with the fact that Jesus himself is occasionally identified with the title elohim / theos in scripture and also that some passages of scripture which are applied to Yahweh himself are also applied to Jesus himself.

What slowly and gradually emerged from that post-biblical process of reflection and formulation by non-Jewish followers of Jesus is Christian orthodoxy. That the process which produced Christian orthodoxy destroyed Jewish orthodoxy is a fact.

It is a fact that Christianity began as a sect of Judaism. It is in that primitive Christianity where I’m properly located.

It is a fact that Christianity did not remain a sect of Judaism. It isn’t the Christian timeline that excludes me from Christianity; it‘s what later became orthodox in Christian Church history that attempts to exclude me from that timeline.

I deal comfortably and easily with how those who affirm Jewish orthodoxy but reject Jesus as the Messiah view me. I also deal comfortably and easily with how those who affirm Christian orthodoxy view me.

My struggle over the years has not been with how they view me but with how I view them. Some of the best pastoral advice I’ve ever received is to love them and remain true to my faith in the Messiah and in his God.

 

[GeneZ]

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The Greek does not simply mean "touch me."
Jesus was telling her to stop clinging to him.
She was definitely touching him.

That she could cling to Him spiritually later after He ascended to the Father!

Jesus has two natures! His humanity sees the Father as God.
He spoke to her as a man.
When He ascended, that was when He returns to being as God.
Then! She could cling to God through Him as her God.
He was telling her to wait...

 

[Matthias]

A major difference between how Jewish monotheism understands Jesus to be God and man and how historical orthodox trinitarianism understands Jesus to be God and man @soberxp is seen in the doctrine of the hypostatic union.

The orthodox doctrine was decided upon by the church at the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451 -> over 400 years after the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus. That doesn’t necessarily make it wrong; it makes it an advancement in Christian understanding that goes beyond the primitive Christian understanding.

Jewish monotheism -> Jesus has only one nature, human; he is a human person. It is grounded on the Jewish law of agency rather than on the Christian doctrine of hypostatic union.

Historical orthodox trinitarianism -> Jesus has two natures, divine and human; he is a divine person, not a human person. The impersonal human nature is given personality by the divine person.

Both forms of monotheism are found in Christian history. One form (Jewish monotheism) is older than the other (trinitarian). The younger form eventually triumphed over and anathematized the older form. That’s church history.

You might be wondering where that leaves me as a Jewish monotheist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah. Stated positively, it leaves me welcome in the Jewish synagogue (as long as I don’t bring Jesus with me, which is not a viable option for me) and welcome in the Christian church (as long as I don’t bring the God of Jewish monotheism with me, which is not a viable option for me). Stated negatively, and in light of the fact that I’m unwilling to sear my conscience, it leaves me unwelcome and anathematized (cursed) by both the Jewish synagogue and the Christian church.

It’s a paradox, but such is the constraint of history.

 

[GeneZ]

A major difference between how Jewish monotheism understands Jesus to be God and man and how historical orthodox trinitarianism understands Jesus to be God and man @soberxp is seen in the doctrine of the hypostatic union.

The orthodox doctrine was decided upon by the church at the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451 -> over 400 years after the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus. That doesn’t necessarily make it wrong; it makes it an advancement in Christian understanding that goes beyond the primitive Christian understanding.

Jewish monotheism -> Jesus has only one nature, human; he is a human person. It is grounded on the Jewish law of agency rather than on the Christian doctrine of hypostatic union.

Historical orthodox trinitarianism -> Jesus has two natures, divine and human; he is a divine person, not a human person. The impersonal human nature is given personality by the divine person.

Both forms of monotheism are found in Christian history. One form (Jewish monotheism) is older than the other (trinitarian). The younger form eventually triumphed over and anathematized the older form. That’s church history.

You might be wondering where that leaves me as a Jewish monotheist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah. Stated positively, it leaves me welcome in the Jewish synagogue (as long as I don’t bring Jesus with me, which is not a viable option for me) and welcome in the Christian church (as long as I don’t bring the God of Jewish monotheism with me, which is not a viable option for me). Stated negatively, and in light of the fact that I’m unwilling to sear my conscience, it leaves me unwelcome and anathematized (cursed) by both the Jewish synagogue and the Christian church.

It’s a paradox, but such is the constraint of history.

It does not matter at this point.
We now have Bibles.
We now have years of a few good teachers.

Myself having grown up Jewish, find those who wish to be stubbornly religious in denial of what God wants to become our faith (the Trinity)
as a waste of time. Its becomes futile if they want to refuse to accept what the Word explicitly says.
For it takes the Holy Spirit to be active in them to see it. And, the Holy Spirit is not filling them because of religious pride.

,,,,,,,,

 

[Matthias]

It does not matter at this point.

If it doesn’t matter then why anathematize people?

We now have Bibles.
We now have years of a few good teachers.

What are the names of these few whom you consider to be good teachers?

Myself having grown up Jewish, find those who wish to be stubbornly religious in denial of what God wants to become our faith (the Trinity) as a waste of time. Its becomes futile if they want to refuse to accept what the Word explicitly says.
For it takes the Holy Spirit to be active in them to see it. And, the Holy Spirit is not filling them because of religious pride.

I understand that you consider me to be a waste of time. I appreciate that you grant me some in spite of it.

 

[GeneZ]

If it doesn’t matter then why anathematize people?

People?
It is an isolated few.

It helps others to realize that they are not alone in dealing with such a person.

 

[Matthias]

People?
It is an isolated few.

People who affirm the creeds of orthodoxy. It isn’t an isolated few. It’s billions.

It helps others to realize that they are not alone in dealing with such a person.

 

[Matthias]

What are the names of these few whom you consider to be good teachers?

Most of what I know I learned from good trinitarian teachers. I’m receptive to receiving recommendations concerning them. If I haven’t read them, I‘ll add them to my reading list.

 

[GeneZ]

People who affirm the creeds of orthodoxy. It isn’t an isolated few. It’s billions.

I follow orthodoxy.

It is not orthodoxy that I criticize.
Its those who can not present a refreshed presentation.
One that speaks to us today in a manner that does not sound we still ride on horses and live in little villages without electricity and plumbing.

 

[Matthias]

I follow orthodoxy.

I follow Jewish orthodoxy and read Christian orthodoxy.

It is not orthodoxy that I criticize.

You criticize Jewish orthodoxy.

Its those who can not present a refreshed presentation.
One that speaks to us today in a manner that does not sound we still ride on horses and live in little villages without electricity and plumbing.

There are some trinitarian scholars who say that Christian orthodoxy needs a fresh presentation. That doesn’t sit well with the old guard.

It’s been set in stone for 1700 years. It wouldn’t be easy to refresh it.

 

[GeneZ]

What are the names of these few whom you consider to be good teachers?

Dr. Ernest R. Campbell ..... A Commentary of 1st Corinthians - Based on the Greek New Testament
Dr. Campbell's works can be found online.


An, the one who has the largest library I know of to pick from:

Robert B. Thieme Jr

Here is a catalogue of recorded Bible lessons:
He taught six nights a week for about fifty years.
https://www.rbthieme.org/PDF/LessonListingForWeb2014.pdf

 

[GeneZ]

I follow Jewish orthodoxy and read Christian orthodoxy.



You criticize Jewish orthodoxy.



There are some trinitarian scholars who say that Christian orthodoxy needs a fresh presentation. That doesn’t sit well with the old guard.

It’s been set in stone for 1700 years. It wouldn’t be easy to refresh it.

Just the way it is presented.
Not, what it is presented.

 

[Matthias]

Dr. Ernest R. Campbell ..... A Commentary of 1st Corinthians - Based on the Greek New Testament
Dr. Campbell's works can be found online.


An, the one who has the largest library I know of to pick from:

Robert B. Thieme Jr

Here is a catalogue of recorded Bible lessons:
He taught six nights a week for about fifty years.
https://www.rbthieme.org/PDF/LessonListingForWeb2014.pdf

Thank you. I’ve read some from both of them. There is more from both of them that I’ve yet to read. I will encourage others to read them too.

 

[Matthias]

Just the way it is presented.
Not, what it is presented.

Do you have any specific suggestions for the way it should be presented?

 

[GeneZ]

Do you have any specific suggestions for the way it should be presented?

Less concentration on the technical aspect,,, and more on how you see the Greek rendering it.
Then offer to show them your justification if they should ask.
Doing it the way you did, can confuse someone first learning doctrine and scare them off.