To the only God our Savior

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Matthias

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“Glory to God in the highest heaven, and peace on earth to people He favors.”

(Luke 2:14, HCSB)

Who is God in the highest heaven?

He is the heavenly Father.

He is Yahweh, the God and Father of our lord Jesus Messiah.

He is “the only God our Savior” of Jude 1:25.

”Jesus wasn’t, and isn’t, Yahweh.” - Ben Witherington, III
 

Matthias

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“Pray then, in this way, ‘Our Father who is in heaven …’”

(Matthew 6:9, NASB)

The prayer of a Jewish monotheist as taught by a Jewish monotheist; not to the Trinity, but rather to “the only God our Savior” (Jude 1:25).
 

Matthias

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“They will fight against you. But they will not defeat you. This is because I am with you, and I will save you!, says the Lord.

(Jeremiah 1:19, ICB)

”And they will fight against you, but they will not overcome you, for I am with you to deliver you, says Yahweh.”

(Jeremiah 1:19, LSB)

”’They will fight you, but they will not defeat you. I am with you, and I will rescue you,‘ declares Yahweh.”

(Jeremiah 1:19, NOG)

Yahweh. “Our only God and Savior“ (Jude 1:25) saves, delivers, rescues his people.

”Jesus wasn’t, and isn’t, Yahweh. … he [Jesus] is not the heavenly Father.” - Ben Witherington, III

But Jesus is a savior - “Today in the city of David, a savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the lord“ (Luke 2:11).

”Jesus therefore answered them, ’Most certainly I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these things the Son also does likewise.”

(John 5:19, WEB)

Jesus does what he sees Yahweh doing.

Jewish monotheism.
 

Matthias

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Where exactly in the Hebrew Bible do you find Adonai meaning and translated in English ”My Lord”? How many occurrences? Specially, which verses?

I received no reply.

This is an important point. The assertion made by my conversation partner is incorrect. There are no occurrences of “my Adonai” or “my Yahweh” in the Hebrew Bible.
 
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APAK

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I received no reply.

This is an important point. The assertion made by my conversation partner is incorrect. There are no occurrences of “my Adonai” or “my Yahweh” in the Hebrew Bible.
hmmm.tricky
 

Matthias

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hmmm.tricky

I’ve seen the incorrect assertion made in other sources. I don’t know for certain but I suspect that he obtained it from one of them and offered it to me for my consideration. He should come out against it, as I have. That, in and of itself, doesn’t harm his position.

He posted a lot of solid information in that post. Anyone interested could verify it for himself or herself using a Hebrew Lexicon. That particular piece of information wasn’t solid.

A point of agreement could have - should have - occurred between us, but didn’t.
 
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APAK

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I’ve seen the incorrect assertion made in other sources. I don’t know for certain but I suspect that he obtained it from one of them and offered it to me for my consideration. He should come out against it, as I have.

He posted a lot of solid information in that post. Anyone interested could verify for himself or herself using a Hebrew Lexicon. That particular piece of information wasn’t solid.

A point of agreement could have - should have - occurred between us, but didn’t.
Unfortunate with some restless and sometimes insecure spirits....yes, I already made a judgement
 

Matthias

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Unfortunate with some restless and sometimes insecure spirits....yes, I already made a judgement

He’s done just about everything short of calling me the son of a whore, …


… and yet I still believe. I also believe it’s still possible that he could become persuaded. It’s not over until a person draws their last breath.
 

APAK

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I truly believe he is undecided and insecure in his spirituality; a poser and a fence-sitter, being drawn to others for the latest 'better' answer. And if he says he is actually a modern 'Jew,' then that is another issue and complication for him..
 

Matthias

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He’s done just about everything short of calling me the son of a whore, …

Spiritual harlotry / idolatry is a major theme in scripture.

I am a son of “our only God and Savior” (Jude 1:25). It would be a bold move for anyone to call me - a Jewish monotheist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, the Son of the living God - the son of an idol.
 

Matthias

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I mentioned in another thread earlier today about how I was reading Jesus last night and paused when I came to a certain passage of scripture. In addition to that passage I read verses which didn’t cause me to pause. I want to mention a couple of them in this thread.

”He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.”

(Revelation 3:12-13, WEB)

I read through the passage without pausing to think about who Jesus was referring to, four times in one verse, as “my God”.

As a Jewish monotheist, I believe that Jesus’ God is my God.

The spirit of Jesus - or Jesus in spirit, if the reader prefers - is telling me that, if I‘m counted among those who overcome, he will make me a pillar in the temple of “the only God our Savior” (Jude 1:25) -> our heavenly Father, Yahweh.

”Jesus wasn’t, and isn’t, Yahweh. ... He [Jesus] is someone other than the heavenly Father.” - Ben Witherington, III

This is what it looks and sounds like when scripture, all scripture, is read through the “spiritual eyes” of Jewish monotheism.
 
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APAK

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I mentioned in another thread earlier today about how I was reading Jesus last night and paused when I came to a certain passage of scripture. In addition to that passage I read verses which didn’t cause me to pause. I want to mention a couple of them in this thread.

”He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.”

(Revelation 3:12-13, WEB)

I read through the passage without pausing to think about who Jesus was referring to, four times in one verse, as “my God”.

As a Jewish monotheist, I believe that Jesus’ God is my God.

The spirit of Jesus - or Jesus in spirit, if the reader prefers - is telling me that, if I‘m counted among those who overcome, he will make me a pillar in the temple of “the only God our Savior” (Jude 1:25) -> our heavenly Father, Yahweh.

”Jesus wasn’t, and isn’t, Yahweh. ... He [Jesus] is someone other than the heavenly Father.” - Ben Witherington, III

This is what it looks and sounds like when scripture, all scripture, is read through the “spiritual eyes” of Jewish monotheism.
Amen....I believe as you in this regard. My God as yours in also Jesus' God. We truly worship the same Creator and mastermind of human salvation. I'm glad that our lord Jesus gave his life willing for us, indeed. He deserves the praise and honor and adoration in the presence of our one God and Father for his glory. This is pleasing to him.. Amen
 
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Matthias

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Today in Christian History posted the following on X / Twitter today:

“But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might recive adoption as sons.
Galatians 4:-4-5”


Who does a Jewish monotheist understand “God” to be?

“The only God our Savior” (Jude 1:25) -> Yahweh, the God and Father of our lord Jesus Messiah.

“Jesus wasn’t, and isn’t, Yahweh.” - Ben Witherington, III
 

Matthias

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“You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord’, and do so correctly, for that is what I am.”

(John 13:13, NET)

“Why do you call me ‘Lord,’ and don’t do what I tell you?”

(Luke 6:46, NET)

Jesus of Nazareth is the teacher, the Jewish Rabbi, and he is the lord (Heb. adoni) whom Yahweh spoke to prophetically in Psalm 110:1.

”Jesus wasn’t, and isn’t, Yahweh.” - Ben Witherington, III

When the disciples called him “Lord” they weren’t calling him Adonai, they were calling him adoni. The Greek word kurios is used for both Adonai and adoni. We must remember what we learned about the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible when reading the New Testament.

Adonai is Yahweh’s title; adoni is the Messiah’s title.

Adonai is the one who is “our only God and Savior” (Jude 1:25) in the understanding of Jewish monotheism.
 
J

Johann

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When the disciples called him “Lord” they weren’t calling him Adonai, they were calling him adoni. The Greek word kurios is used for both Adonai and adoni. We must remember what we learned about the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible when reading the New Testament.

Adonai is Yahweh’s title; adoni is the Messiah’s title.

Adonai is the one who is “our only God and Savior” (Jude 1:25) in the understanding of Jewish monotheism.
Let's correct your inconsistencies.

In the Greek New Testament, the term "Lord" is most often translated from the Greek word κυριος (kurios), which serves as the equivalent of both Adonai (a divine title for God) and adoni (a term for a human or earthly master) in the Hebrew Bible. Context determines which meaning is appropriate.

Your statement assumes the disciples would have consciously avoided referring to Jesus with the divine title Adonai and instead only called Him adoni, a term reserved for human authority figures.

However, this is inconsistent with the way the disciples and other New Testament writers understood and referred to Jesus:

Thomas's declaration in John 20:28: “My Lord (κυριος) and my God (θεος).”

Thomas explicitly acknowledges Jesus as both Lord (kurios) and God, equating Him with Yahweh (Adonai).

Luke 2:11: At Jesus' birth, the angel proclaims, “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord (κυριος).”

This title connects Jesus to divine authority and not merely human leadership.


The disciples clearly attributed to Jesus titles and honors that were reserved for Yahweh in the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g., worshiping Him-Matthew 28:17, Philippians 2:10–11-actions that would only be appropriate for Adonai).

Your claim: "Adonai is Yahweh’s title; adoni is the Messiah’s title."

You oversimplify the usage of "Adonai" and "adoni" in the Hebrew Bible. While Adonai is indeed a title reserved for Yahweh, adoni is not exclusively the Messiah's title.

The term adoni simply means "my lord" and is used for human authorities such as kings, prophets, and other leaders (e.g., Genesis 23:6; 1 Samuel 25:24).

The foundational Messianic prophecy in Psalm 110:1 reads:

"The LORD (YHWH) says to my Lord (adoni): 'Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.'"

Hashem said unto Adoni [i.e., Moshiach Adoneinu; Malachi 3:1], Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet.

Psa 110:1 [A Psalm of David.] A declaration of YAHWEH to my Adonai: Sit at My right hand, until I place Your enemies as Your footstool.

In this context, adoni refers to the Messiah. However, the New Testament applies this psalm to Jesus and connects it to His divine authority:

Jesus Himself cites this passage in Matthew 22:41–46, challenging the Pharisees to explain how the Messiah could be both David's son and his "Lord."

In the broader New Testament understanding, Jesus is not merely "adoni" in the sense of an earthly master but is identified with Adonai, sharing divine authority and glory.

Your claim: "Adonai is the one who is ‘our only God and Savior’ (Jude 1:25) in the understanding of Jewish monotheism."



While it is true that Adonai is a title for Yahweh and Jewish monotheism recognizes Yahweh as the only God and Savior, the New Testament identifies Jesus with this very title and role:

Titus 2:13: "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ."

Philippians 2:9–11: Jesus is exalted to the highest place, and "every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (κυριος)," directly paralleling Isaiah 45:23, where Yahweh declares that every knee will bow to Him alone.

Jude 1:25 refers to "our only God and Savior" but must be understood in the context of the broader New Testament, which affirms the full deity of Jesus: Which you don't @Matthias.


John 1:1: "The Word was God."

Colossians 2:9: "For in Him [Jesus] dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."


Your claim falsely assumes the disciples consciously limited their use of "Lord" to exclude divine connotations (Adonai) when referring to Jesus. Scripture demonstrates otherwise.


Adonai is Yahweh’s title, but adoni is not exclusively the Messiah’s title-it is broadly used for human authorities.

The New Testament consistently identifies Jesus as both "Lord" (kurios) and "God" (theos), linking Him to Yahweh and the titles of Savior and Creator.

Thus, your argument diminishes the New Testament's testimony to Jesus’ divine nature and conflates distinctions between Jewish monotheism and the early Christian understanding of the Messiah.

J.
 

Matthias

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“ … God is the head of the Messiah.”

(1 Corinthians 11:3, ISV)

The God who is the head of the Messiah is Yahweh, the “only God our Savior” (Jude 1:25), our heavenly Father, in Jewish monotheism.
 

Matthias

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Let's correct your inconsistencies.

In the Greek New Testament, the term "Lord" is most often translated from the Greek word κυριος (kurios), which serves as the equivalent of both Adonai (a divine title for God) and adoni (a term for a human or earthly master) in the Hebrew Bible. Context determines which meaning is appropriate.

Your statement assumes the disciples would have consciously avoided referring to Jesus with the divine title Adonai and instead only called Him adoni, a term reserved for human authority figures.

However, this is inconsistent with the way the disciples and other New Testament writers understood and referred to Jesus:

Thomas's declaration in John 20:28: “My Lord (κυριος) and my God (θεος).”

Thomas explicitly acknowledges Jesus as both Lord (kurios) and God, equating Him with Yahweh (Adonai).

Luke 2:11: At Jesus' birth, the angel proclaims, “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord (κυριος).”

This title connects Jesus to divine authority and not merely human leadership.


The disciples clearly attributed to Jesus titles and honors that were reserved for Yahweh in the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g., worshiping Him-Matthew 28:17, Philippians 2:10–11-actions that would only be appropriate for Adonai).

Your claim: "Adonai is Yahweh’s title; adoni is the Messiah’s title."

You oversimplify the usage of "Adonai" and "adoni" in the Hebrew Bible. While Adonai is indeed a title reserved for Yahweh, adoni is not exclusively the Messiah's title.

The term adoni simply means "my lord" and is used for human authorities such as kings, prophets, and other leaders (e.g., Genesis 23:6; 1 Samuel 25:24).

The foundational Messianic prophecy in Psalm 110:1 reads:

"The LORD (YHWH) says to my Lord (adoni): 'Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.'"

Hashem said unto Adoni [i.e., Moshiach Adoneinu; Malachi 3:1], Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet.

Psa 110:1 [A Psalm of David.] A declaration of YAHWEH to my Adonai: Sit at My right hand, until I place Your enemies as Your footstool.

In this context, adoni refers to the Messiah. However, the New Testament applies this psalm to Jesus and connects it to His divine authority:

Jesus Himself cites this passage in Matthew 22:41–46, challenging the Pharisees to explain how the Messiah could be both David's son and his "Lord."

In the broader New Testament understanding, Jesus is not merely "adoni" in the sense of an earthly master but is identified with Adonai, sharing divine authority and glory.

Your claim: "Adonai is the one who is ‘our only God and Savior’ (Jude 1:25) in the understanding of Jewish monotheism."



While it is true that Adonai is a title for Yahweh and Jewish monotheism recognizes Yahweh as the only God and Savior, the New Testament identifies Jesus with this very title and role:

Titus 2:13: "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ."

Philippians 2:9–11: Jesus is exalted to the highest place, and "every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (κυριος)," directly paralleling Isaiah 45:23, where Yahweh declares that every knee will bow to Him alone.

Jude 1:25 refers to "our only God and Savior" but must be understood in the context of the broader New Testament, which affirms the full deity of Jesus: Which you don't @Matthias.


John 1:1: "The Word was God."

Colossians 2:9: "For in Him [Jesus] dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."


You’re confusing the New Testament with the interpretation of the post-biblical creeds.

Your claim falsely assumes the disciples consciously limited their use of "Lord" to exclude divine connotations (Adonai) when referring to Jesus. Scripture demonstrates otherwise.

Adonai is Yahweh’s title, but adoni is not exclusively the Messiah’s title-it is broadly used for human authorities.

The disciples are Jewish monotheists. They understood the difference between someone who is Adonai and someone who is adoni.

The New Testament consistently identifies Jesus as both "Lord" (kurios) and "God" (theos), linking Him to Yahweh and the titles of Savior and Creator.

Agreed.

Thus, your argument diminishes the New Testament's testimony to Jesus’ divine nature and conflates distinctions between Jewish monotheism and the early Christian understanding of the Messiah.

J.

The New Testament argument is that a particular Jewish monotheist is the Messiah, Son of God who was promised, prophesied, raised up and sent by the God of Jewish monotheism.
 
J

Johann

Guest
“ … God is the head of the Messiah.”

(1 Corinthians 11:3, ISV)

The God who is the head of the Messiah is Yahweh, the “only God our Savior” (Jude 1:25), oir heavenlyFather, in Jewish monotheism.
Understanding "God is the head of the Messiah" in 1 Corinthians 11:3

1 Corinthians 11:3 (Textus Receptus):
"I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

The term "head" (Greek: κεφαλή, kephalē) does not imply ontological inferiority but denotes an order of relationship or function. In the context of 1 Corinthians 11, Paul discusses relationships and authority within creation, highlighting the distinct roles within God's divine economy without negating equality in essence.

In this sense, "God is the head of Christ" refers to the relationship between the Father and the Son, specifically in the context of the Son’s incarnation and His role as the Messiah.


The Son willingly submitted to the Father’s will during His earthly ministry
(e.g., John 5:30; John 6:38). This submission is functional and voluntary, not a statement of inequality in divine nature.

The distinction is made clear in passages like John 10:30: "I and my Father are one," affirming equality in essence while recognizing relational roles.

2. Jude 1:25 and the Identity of the Savior
Jude 1:25 (Textus Receptus):
"To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

Jude identifies Yahweh as the Savior, consistent with Jewish monotheism. However, the New Testament explicitly attributes the role of Savior to Jesus Christ, demonstrating that the authors of Scripture understood Jesus as fully divine and one with Yahweh:

Titus 2:13: "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ."

Philippians 3:20: "We look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ."

John 1:1: "The Word was God," confirming that Jesus, as the Logos, shares the same divine essence as the Father.

Your claim that "the God who is the head of the Messiah is Yahweh" is true but incomplete.

The New Testament consistently presents Jesus as Yahweh incarnate, fulfilling the role of the Savior while retaining relational submission to the Father during His earthly mission.


Your claim relies on the framework of Jewish monotheism but fails to account for the New Testament's expanded revelation of the triune nature of God.

While Jewish monotheism is rooted in the oneness of Yahweh (Deuteronomy 6:4), the New Testament reveals this oneness as encompassing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (e.g., Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14).

Jesus, as the Messiah, fulfills Jewish expectations while also transcending them:

Matthew 22:44 (quoting Psalm 110:1): "The LORD (Yahweh) said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand."

This demonstrates a duality within the Godhead, with the Messiah sharing divine authority.

Isaiah 9:6: The Messiah is called "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father," titles that affirm His divine nature.

4. Jesus as Both God and Messiah
The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes the dual role of Jesus as both divine and the Messiah:

John 1:14: "The Word became flesh." Jesus, who is God (John 1:1), took on human nature to fulfill His role as the Messiah.
Hebrews 1:8: "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever."

The Father addresses the Son as God, affirming His divinity.

The distinction between Yahweh as "the only God our Savior" (Jude 1:25) and the Messiah is not one of nature but of relational roles. Jesus, in His role as Messiah, willingly submits to the Father while fully sharing in the divine essence (Philippians 2:6-8).

J.
 

Matthias

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Understanding "God is the head of the Messiah" in 1 Corinthians 11:3

1 Corinthians 11:3 (Textus Receptus):
"I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

The term "head" (Greek: κεφαλή, kephalē) does not imply ontological inferiority but denotes an order of relationship or function. In the context of 1 Corinthians 11, Paul discusses relationships and authority within creation, highlighting the distinct roles within God's divine economy without negating equality in essence.

In this sense, "God is the head of Christ" refers to the relationship between the Father and the Son, specifically in the context of the Son’s incarnation and His role as the Messiah.


The Son willingly submitted to the Father’s will during His earthly ministry
(e.g., John 5:30; John 6:38). This submission is functional and voluntary, not a statement of inequality in divine nature.

The distinction is made clear in passages like John 10:30: "I and my Father are one," affirming equality in essence while recognizing relational roles.

2. Jude 1:25 and the Identity of the Savior
Jude 1:25 (Textus Receptus):
"To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

Jude identifies Yahweh as the Savior, consistent with Jewish monotheism. However, the New Testament explicitly attributes the role of Savior to Jesus Christ, demonstrating that the authors of Scripture understood Jesus as fully divine and one with Yahweh:

Titus 2:13: "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ."

Philippians 3:20: "We look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ."

John 1:1: "The Word was God," confirming that Jesus, as the Logos, shares the same divine essence as the Father.

Your claim that "the God who is the head of the Messiah is Yahweh" is true but incomplete.

The New Testament consistently presents Jesus as Yahweh incarnate, fulfilling the role of the Savior while retaining relational submission to the Father during His earthly mission.


Your claim relies on the framework of Jewish monotheism but fails to account for the New Testament's expanded revelation of the triune nature of God.


While Jewish monotheism is rooted in the oneness of Yahweh (Deuteronomy 6:4), the New Testament reveals this oneness as encompassing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (e.g., Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14).

Jesus, as the Messiah, fulfills Jewish expectations while also transcending them:

Matthew 22:44 (quoting Psalm 110:1): "The LORD (Yahweh) said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand."

This demonstrates a duality within the Godhead, with the Messiah sharing divine authority.

Isaiah 9:6: The Messiah is called "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father," titles that affirm His divine nature.

4. Jesus as Both God and Messiah
The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes the dual role of Jesus as both divine and the Messiah:

John 1:14: "The Word became flesh." Jesus, who is God (John 1:1), took on human nature to fulfill His role as the Messiah.
Hebrews 1:8: "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever."

The Father addresses the Son as God, affirming His divinity.

The distinction between Yahweh as "the only God our Savior" (Jude 1:25) and the Messiah is not one of nature but of relational roles. Jesus, in His role as Messiah, willingly submits to the Father while fully sharing in the divine essence (Philippians 2:6-8).

J.

I hope people are listening to you. You don’t sound like a Jewish monotheist. You sound like a post-biblical trinitarian.

The way you talk about the Jewish monotheists in scripture is not the way Jewish monotheists talk about the Jewish monotheists in scripture.

You are using language that the Jewish monotheists in scripture didn’t use. The result of that, the consequence of it, is that you promote something which they didn’t.
 
J

Johann

Guest
I hope people are listening to you. You don’t sound like a Jewish monotheist. You sound like a post-biblical trinitarian.

The way you talk about the Jewish monotheists in scripture is not the way Jewish monotheists talk about the Jewish monotheists in scripture.

You are using language that the Jewish monotheists in scripture didn’t use. The result of that, the consequence of it, is that you promote something which they didn’t.
Correct-let the readers decide who is rightly cutting straight the word of YHWH.

Respond, don't react.

J.