It’s my longstanding personal policy not to use private messages on any Internet discussion forums I participate in.
Continue using what you have. I used them myself when I was a trinitarian.
To the only God our Savior
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It’s my longstanding personal policy not to use private messages on any Internet discussion forums I participate in.
Continue using what you have. I used them myself when I was a trinitarian.
@APAK I posted this short clip in another thread. I don’t know if you saw it or not and things are quickly buried in threads that are popular.
It’s just a 33 second clip from a lecture given by Dr. Ben Witherington, III. He’s a trinitarian. He teaches at Asbury Theological Seminary, located in Wilmore, Kentucky. If you haven’t seen it, you should. 33 seconds of your precious time is all that I’m asking.
”Jesus wasn’t and isn’t Yahweh.”
@Johann has to teach against it.
asburyseminary.edu
It’s just a 33 second clip from a lecture given by Dr. Ben Witherington, III. He’s a trinitarian. He teaches at Asbury Theological Seminary, located in Wilmore, Kentucky. If you haven’t seen it, you should. 33 seconds of your precious time is all that I’m asking.
”Jesus wasn’t and isn’t Yahweh.”
@Johann has to teach against it.
Dr. Ben Witherington III - Asbury Theological Seminary
Dr. Witherington joined the Asbury Seminary faculty in 1995 after teaching at Ashland Theological Seminary for more than a decade. He has also taught at High Point College, Duke Divinity School and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. A prolific author, Dr. Witherington has written more than 60...
On the video: It is that simple and yet very disruptive 'noise' to many listeners who are not true Monotheists. They become very unsettled and many cannot wait to respond with their version as a call in a game of cards. And they will totally avoid the video and its contents as if they never heard it. I think this is a type of psychological reaction to YHWH and his own one oneness.@APAK I posted this short clip in another thread. I don’t know if you saw it or not and things are quickly buried in threads that are popular.
It’s just a 33 second clip from a lecture given by Dr. Ben Witherington, III. He’s a trinitarian. He teaches at Asbury Theological Seminary, located in Wilmore, Kentucky. If you haven’t seen it, you should. 33 seconds of your precious time is all that I’m asking.
”Jesus wasn’t and isn’t Yahweh.”
@Johann has to teach against it.
Dr. Ben Witherington III - Asbury Theological Seminary
Dr. Witherington joined the Asbury Seminary faculty in 1995 after teaching at Ashland Theological Seminary for more than a decade. He has also taught at High Point College, Duke Divinity School and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. A prolific author, Dr. Witherington has written more than 60...
@Johann
you mentioned in a post further back that God's oneness is a mix of words.....
then you run off into a direction to suit your unknown or unannounced definition of this term. And then call these facts....
What is your definition of the oneness of God. What class does it fall into? Is it a Modalist Oneness, a Tritheistic oneness of God, A Trinitarian oneness, a Binitarian one, or a Monotheistic oneness of God?
Please clarify please before claiming some type of vain or hollow victory?
thx
Something else peculiar about trinitarianism that readers ought to know. Trinitarians tend to equate the post-biblical creeds with scripture. I’ve seen this argument made by trinitarians on the forum lately.
The post-biblical creeds aren’t scripture. They are interpretations of scripture.
That’s important.
With a few exceptions, the interpretations offered for our consideration in the post-biblical creeds don’t align with Jewish monotheism; they destroy it.
The earliest Christians were, like the Messiah himself, Jewish monotheists. They knew nothing about these later creeds.
Primitive Christianity is Jewish. Nicene Christianity isn’t.
The post-biblical creeds aren’t scripture. They are interpretations of scripture.
That’s important.
With a few exceptions, the interpretations offered for our consideration in the post-biblical creeds don’t align with Jewish monotheism; they destroy it.
The earliest Christians were, like the Messiah himself, Jewish monotheists. They knew nothing about these later creeds.
Primitive Christianity is Jewish. Nicene Christianity isn’t.
Did I say Yeshua is YHWH?
Joh 1:1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (N1Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God N2Himself. [Isa_9:6]
"was" (thrice) This is an imperfect tense (cf. Joh_1:1-2; Joh_1:4; Joh_1:10) which focuses on continual existence in past time. This tense is used to show the Logos' pre-existence (cf. Joh_8:57-58; Joh_17:5; Joh_17:24; 2Co_8:9; Col_1:17; Heb_10:5-7). It is contrasted with the aorist tensesof Joh_1:3; Joh_1:6; Joh_1:14.
"the Word" The Greek term logos referred to a message, not just a single word. In this context it is a title which the Greeks used to describe "world reason" and the Hebrews as analogus with "Wisdom." John chose this term to assert that God's Word is both a person and a message. See Contextual Insights, C.
"with God" "With" could be paraphrased "face to face." It depicts intimate fellowship. It also points toward the concept of one divine essence and three personal eternal manifestations (see Special Topic: The Trinity at Joh_14:26). The NT asserts the paradox that Jesus is separate from the Father, but also that He is one with the Father.
"the Word was God" This verb is imperfect tense as in Joh_1:1 a. There is no article (which identifies the subject, see F. F. Bruce, Answers to Questions, p. 66) with Theos, but Theos is placed first in the Greek phrase for emphasis. This verse and Joh_1:18 are strong statements of the full deity of the pre-existent Logos (cf. Joh_5:18; Joh_8:58; Joh_10:30; Joh_14:9; Joh_17:11; Joh_20:28; Rom_9:5; Heb_1:8; 2Pe_1:1). Jesus is fully divine as well as fully human (cf. 1Jn_4:1-3). He is not the same as God the Father, but He is the very same divine essence as the Father.
The NT asserts the full deity of Jesus of Nazareth, but protects the distinct personhood of the Father. The one divine essence is emphasized in Joh_1:1; Joh_5:18; Joh_10:30; Joh_10:34-38; Joh_14:9-10; and Joh_20:28, while their distinctives are emphasized in Joh_1:2; Joh_1:14; Joh_1:18; Joh_5:19-23; Joh_8:28; Joh_10:25; Joh_10:29; Joh_14:11-13; Joh_14:16.
Joh_1:2
This is parallel to Joh_1:1 and emphasizes again the shocking truth in light of monotheism that Jesus, who was born around 6-5 B.C., has always been with the Father and, therefore, is Deity.
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
Joh 1:4 In him was Chayyim (Life) and the Chayyim (Life) was the Ohr (Light) of Bnei Adam. [TEHILLIM 36:10 (9)]
Joh 1:5 And the Ohr shines in the choshech [TEHILLIM 18:28], and the choshech did not grasp it. [YESHAYAH 9:1]
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.
Why is it you two don't want to address this?!
More is coming from me-this is just the beginning.
J.
I have addressed it; multiple times in multiple threads.
Will you go on record saying that Jesus wasn’t and isn’t Yahweh?
You are very evasive, not addressing the Scripture references, not being honest, so no, I won't go on record saying anything-the onus is on YOU to debunk and refute all the dissertations I have given you that you left unanswered-and there's more to come.
I am not interested in @APAK's rudeness and as far as I'm concerned he is out of the picture-so it's you and me-again.
J.
Nice.
I agree with Dr. Witherington. Jesus wasn’t and isn’t Yahweh.
Yahweh is the God and Father of Jesus.
There is no God besides Yahweh. Everything else in scripture is idols.
Jewish monotheism.
Not really-they read the Jewish Bible same as you and the Triune Godhead is biblical.
J.
But Yeshua is God.
Do you have a problem with the Scriptures re Messiah's Deity? If so, why?
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.
J.
I’ve posted the opening line of both the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed. Those lines are consistent with Jewish monotheism.
And I'm giving you Scripture references confirming Yeshua is Elohim-why do you have a problem with this?
J.
I didn’t ask you to say that he wasn’t. Even I have said that in some sense, he is.
I asked if you would go on record saying that Jesus wasn’t and isn’t Yahweh. You refused. I want all of our readers to see that.
That’s a classic logical fallacy question.
Example:
”Are you still beating your wife?”
I’ve never beaten my wife.
The Messiah’s deity is his God and Father, Yahweh.
You and I have discussed John’s prologue multiple times.
Opening Line of the Apostles’ Creed
"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth."
Opening Line of the Nicene Creed
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible."
Where is Messiah here? I gave you ample references that Yeshua is Elohim-selective reading? Read only what you believe and discard the rest of Scripture?
J.
How quickly you’ve forgotten that I’ve said that Jesus is occasionally identified as elohim in scripture.
Nowhere. The Father, not the Messiah, is unambiguously stated to be the creator in these lines. That’s Jewish monotheism. You’ve already told me (and our readers) that you believe in creators (plural).
Jewish monotheism doesn’t discard any scripture. Scripture was written by Jewish monotheists.
How is Messiah "in some sense"--God?
Incorrect-the Messiah's Deity is on equality WITH the Father.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
And here we are-discussing this again-since it stands written in the Jewish Bible.
J.
I’ve told you how he is. I’ve told anyone who will listen to me how he is. You didn’t find it persuasive. I’ve even told my readers how in this very thread, earlier today. Why are you asking me about it again? Are you having second thoughts about it?
The God of the Jewish Bible is Yahweh.
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