Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[The Light]

They were on heaven or more precisely Mt. Zion after the 7th Trumpet started to sound. They were on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. The 7th Trumpet sounds after the 7 Thunders.

The 144k were on Mt. Zion because of Revelation 13:5-7

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

The 144k are waiting on Mt. Zion until the 42 months are over to return at the battle of Armageddon.

So you don't understand that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet and what you are looking at with the 144,000 in Rev 14 takes place in the seals.

 

[Timtofly]

So you don't understand that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet and what you are looking at with the 144,000 in Rev 14 takes place in the seals.

God's wrath would be over at the end of the 7th Trumpet. But the week of the 7th Trumpet is extended for 42 more months. Then at the end of the 42 months, the last 3.5 days of the 7th Trumpet are completed. During those 3.5 days the 7 vials are poured out, then the battle of Armageddon. In Daniel 9:27 Gabriel said the week of days. Days, not years are split in half. Satan's 42 months is utter desolation, but not God's wrath. Desolation is bad enough. Satan is in full control on earth. Yet many will still reject Satan and be beheaded.

Armageddon is not the Second Coming. Armageddon is just the end of Satan’s reign of desolation.

The first 4 Seals are not God's wrath. The destruction of man's works at the Second Coming is God's Wrath. When Noah built the ark, that was not God's wrath. The Flood was. So the fire of the Second Coming is God cleansing this earth of the wickedness of sinful mankind.

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Jesus is on the earth with His angels at that point. They only leave, if Satan is allowed 42 months. Jesus leaves, because He does not co-rule with Satan, to return at Armageddon, and remove Satan and bind him in the pit for 1,000 years.

Revelation 14 only happens if Satan is not allowed 42 months. The winepress happens instead of Armageddon. The 144k are waiting on Mt. Zion during the 42 months. Revelation 14 is similar to Revelation 7. It has two halves. They both tell us about the 144k. Chapter 7 is when they are redeemed. Chapter 14 tells us where they are in the midst of the 7th Trumpet, if Satan is allowed 42 months. In chapter 7 they are on the earth. They remain on the earth during the First 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

The last half of Revelation 7 is the church glorified and seen in Paradise. The last half of Revelation 14 is the winepress, and no 42 months given to the FP, Satan, and the AoD. If the winepress happens, then Armageddon is not even necessary. The 7 vials will not even happen. The 42 months will not happen. The Millennium will start when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding either way.

 

[Keraz]

God's wrath would be over at the end of the 7th Trumpet.

Wrong. What about the 7 Bowls yet to come? They are also Gods wrath against the ungodly. Revelation 16:1

Armageddon is not the Second Coming.

Wrong again, Jesus Returns on the great Day of God Almighty and destroys the armies at Armageddon. Revelation 16:13-16, Revelation 19:19

the fire of the Second Coming

There is no fire when Jesus returns. You have made that up.

Jesus is on the earth with His angels at that point. They only leave, if Satan is allowed 42 months. Jesus leaves, because He does not co-rule with Satan, to return at Armageddon

What nonsense! You are just making this up.
Jesus will be revealed to His own people, 2 Thess 1:10, Revelation 14:1, as He is spiritually now, but His glorious Return happens after Gods wrath is completed. Revelation 15:1

The last half of Revelation 7 is the church glorified and seen in Paradise. The last half of Revelation 14 is the winepress, and no 42 months given to the FP, Satan, and the AoD. If the winepress happens, then Armageddon is not even necessary. The 7 vials will not even happen. The 42 months will not happen. The Millennium will start when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding either way.

Absolute fiction! You have a vivid imagination. Prove me wrong with scripture:
1/ The Church never goes to heaven. God and heaven come to us. Rev 21:1-7
2/ No one is 'glorified' or goes to any paradise, until after the GWT. Rev 20:11-15
3/ The 'winepress', Rev 14:14-20, happens at the Sixth Seal. Rev 6:12-17
4/ The Millennium will start when Jesus Returns. Rev 20:1-6

Expect me to refute your fanciful ideas and to present the truth every time you post such rubbish.

 

[Davy]

Davy. There is somewhere where it is written that He will come in a day and hour that you think not.

Yeah, He taught that in the same Scripture where He showed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation, per Matthew 24, and Mark 13. That is where He first used the metaphor of His coming being 'as a thief'. And in Matthew 24, He specifically also taught that the goodman of the house would be watching so as to NOT allow the thief to break in. And in Revelation 3 to the Church of Sardis, Jesus told them that if they don't 'watch', He would come upon them 'as a thief', and they would not know in what hour He would come upon them. So what's that mean? Simple. It means we are to be WATCHING THE SIGNS OF THE END HE GAVE US, LEADING UP TO HIS FUTURE RETURN.

But what does the Pre-trib Rapture theory tell you to do? Just 'be ready'. They try... to use the 'watch' idea too, but THEY DO NOT TEACH WHAT TO WATCH, like Jesus' Signs of the end He gave us. Jesus showed that by 'watching' those Signs, we would know the SEASON of His coming, and thus His coming would NOT be to us 'as a thief' (i.e., a surprise), which His coming "as a thief" is to be for the wicked who aren't looking for Him. We can actually know the time of His future coming within 3 and 1/2 days per the Signs He gave us in His Revelation; but we still do not know what hour, date, or year that will be. In 1 Thessalonians 5, watching the Signs is what Apostle Paul called knowing "the times and the seasons". The Thessalonian Church already knew them, as Paul said, so he had no need to teach them. And that is why Paul immediately pointed to the last day "sudden destruction" of the wicked on "the day of the Lord" which will come "as a thief in the night". And WOW! By that 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 teaching, Apostle Paul nailed what Jesus had taught about His coming "as a thief", and even gave another Sign of when, because the "sudden destruction" will come when the wicked start saying, "Peace and safety".

Also it is not fibbing when someone is honestly incorrect about something.

Let me direct, and let the chips fall where they may. You may not like it, but if you want to grow and learn from mistakes, it's very important to face reality...

Thus if a Scripture says a certain thing, and the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture does specifically state Jesus comes AFTER the tribulation to gather His saints, then that is NOT open for debate. Either one agrees with what He said there, or they don't. And BECAUSE that is plainly written so no one can turn it around to point to some other time, but they still try to push a tradition from men that does go against it, then they are FIBBING, actually telling a lie AGAINST The Scripture.

Now there's some Bible Scripture that is hard to understand, like Peter said in 2 Peter 3 about some of Paul's Epistles concerning the subject of earth ages. But not what Jesus stated below about the timing of His future return and gathering of His saints...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Our Heavenly Father will let you believe whatever you want, even deceive yourself if that's what you want. But by staying in God's Word as written, asking Him for understanding and studying HIS way, then you won't be deceived by any man, not even by the coming Antichrist.

 

[Davy]

We do know we are taken up into the air to meet Him. The gathering when He returns to earth is not the Rapture event as far as many millions of believers feel. You are in no position to cast stones. There is a gathering when he returns also. Probably another one at the end of the 1000 years for the saints in trouble then.
The issue of the Rapture is pretty well settled and not the topic here. You would be unable to offer an opinion on whether the war of Eze by Gog is before the Rapture or after since you do not believe in it at all, and simply try to include it in the second coming events.

You are being FUNNY, did you know that? The above GOES DIRECTLY AGAINST THE WRITTEN SCRIPTURE in so many ways, it is making me laugh!

The gathering when He returns to earth is not the Rapture event as far as many millions of believers feel.

Who cares what the number of peoples believe, the majority are not always correct. It's what God says in His Word that is important, not man's word. All knees will bow to Christ, without exception. So that ought to reveal how little of importance man's word is.

God's Word reveals there is ONLY ONE MORE COMING BY CHRIST, and it is on the very LAST DAY of this present world, which is when the resurrection will happen, and is when His faithful saints still alive will be gathered on His way to the Mount of Olives, where He ascended to Heaven from. It the false pre-trib rapture theory which tries to ADD another coming PRIOR to the "great tribulation", which is WHY it is a FALSE theory FROM MEN, and not from God in His Word.

You are in no position to cast stones. There is a gathering when he returns also. Probably another one at the end of the 1000 years for the saints in trouble then.

Who's casting stones? All I'm doing is DECLARING GOD'S WORD AS WRITTEN. Now since you DON'T LIKE what His Word says regarding the day of His coming and gather of His Church, you need to TAKE THAT UP WITH HIM, and not me, because I HAVEN'T MADE ANYTHING UP, BUT ONLY KEPT HIS SAYING. But your support of the FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY, which is from men and not from Christ, shows you DO NOT KEEP HIS SAYING.

And just a note; whether you like it or not, you will have to answer to Him when He comes as to why... you didn't keep His Word about these matters. So you can wait and pay the piper then at His future return, or you can begin to keep His Word as written instead of man's, and be welcomed at His future supper. But be assured, you WON'T be allowed to His marriage supper without a wedding garment on, which following men's traditions is how NOT to have that garment.

 

[bluedragon]

In addition there are modern weapons that can stop electric power. So it could be that they will resort to horses.

Forgive my interjection here. An EMP is a theoretical weapon. It has never been tested and has never been experienced. The detonation of a nuclear device destroys what is below. The theory is that a nuclear device exploded 40 miles above earth will render all electronics useless below. Odds are that a detonation at 40 miles above earth simply disturbs a lot of birds.

 

[ewq1938]

In addition there are modern weapons that can stop electric power. So it could be that they will resort to horses.

Forgive my interjection here. An EMP is a theoretical weapon.

There are youtube videos on how to make small hand held EMP devices. It's not theoretical.

 

[Keraz]

In addition there are modern weapons that can stop electric power. So it could be that they will resort to horses.

Forgive my interjection here. An EMP is a theoretical weapon. It has never been tested and has never been experienced. The detonation of a nuclear device destroys what is below. The theory is that a nuclear device exploded 40 miles above earth will render all electronics useless below. Odds are that a detonation at 40 miles above earth simply disturbs a lot of birds.

All emissions like light to microwaves, are Electro-Magnetic waves.
A nuke, specially designed - can destroy electrical systems within its range.
A big Coronal Mass Ejection can destroy everything electrical and electronic on the side of the earth facing the sun.

Prophecy tells us this will happen: Deuteronomy 32:22, Isaiah 28:2, Amos 5:9

 

[The Light]

Yeah, He taught that in the same Scripture where He showed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation, per Matthew 24, and Mark 13. That is where He first used the metaphor of His coming being 'as a thief'. And in Matthew 24, He specifically also taught that the goodman of the house would be watching so as to NOT allow the thief to break in.

There will certainly be a gathering after the tribulation, but He is coming in a day and hour that you think not.

Matthew 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

My Bible says IF the goodman had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched.

That does not say the goodman knows, it says IF HE KNEW, he would have watched.
The Word is telling you that you will not know when he is coming, SO BE READY AND WATCH. You think that Jesus is coming AFTER the tribulation, AND HE IS. But he is coming when you think not. The scriptures clearly say that the Jews cannot see until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. They also say that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. There will be a rapture of the Church before the 70th week of Daniel begins.

And in Revelation 3 to the Church of Sardis, Jesus told them that if they don't 'watch', He would come upon them 'as a thief', and they would not know in what hour He would come upon them. So what's that mean? Simple. It means we are to be WATCHING THE SIGNS OF THE END HE GAVE US, LEADING UP TO HIS FUTURE RETURN.

I agree. And yet you don't know what to watch for. You are watching for the tribulation which happens in the 70th week of Daniel. The Church is already gone before the seals are opened. You are watching for the man of sin to be revealed. These are the things to watch for when the gathering FROM HEAVEN AND EARTH happens and the DAY OF THE LORD BEGINS. These are NOT THE THINGS THAT THE CHURCH IS TOLD TO WATCH FOR. You should probably reread Luke 21

But what does the Pre-trib Rapture theory tell you to do? Just 'be ready'. They try... to use the 'watch' idea too, but THEY DO NOT TEACH WHAT TO WATCH, like Jesus' Signs of the end He gave us. Jesus showed that by 'watching' those Signs, we would know the SEASON of His coming, and thus His coming would NOT be to us 'as a thief' (i.e., a surprise), which His coming "as a thief" is to be for the wicked who aren't looking for Him.

Is the GOODMAN wicked???????????????????????????????? Is the GOODMAN wicked? Wouldn't the GOODMAN be GOOD? IF the GOODMAN had known, HE WOULD HAVE WATCHED. First, the GOODMAN needs to know what to watch for. If he is watching for the man of sin and the tribulation IT WILL BE TOO LATE. The Goodman should probably read Luke 21 so he will really understand what to watch for.

We can actually know the time of His future coming within 3 and 1/2 days per the Signs He gave us in His Revelation; but we still do not know what hour, date, or year that will be.

Well actually they will know EXACTLY when He will come for the gathering BEFORE the DAY OF THE LORD.

1 Thes 5
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The Church will already be in heaven when the 70th week of Daniel begins. It will be the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth that will know the day and hour of His coming.

In 1 Thessalonians 5, watching the Signs is what Apostle Paul called knowing "the times and the seasons".

Exactly. Are you reading the same thing that I am? I'm pretty sure it says TIMES AND SEASONS. If He is coming only once as you declare, wouldn't say TIME AND SEASON. If you knew the SEASON he was coming you could narrow it down. But since he is coming more than once you will need to know the seasons.

The Thessalonian Church already knew them, as Paul said, so he had no need to teach them. And that is why Paul immediately pointed to the last day "sudden destruction" of the wicked on "the day of the Lord" which will come "as a thief in the night". And WOW! By that 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 teaching, Apostle Paul nailed what Jesus had taught about His coming "as a thief", and even gave another Sign of when, because the "sudden destruction" will come when the wicked start saying, "Peace and safety".

It would probably be wise to read Matthew 24 and Luke21 so you can learn what you should be watching for. It certainly isn't the tribulation and the man of sin being revealed. These are the things that His Chose will be looking for. The Church will already be in heaven.

Let me direct, and let the chips fall where they may. You may not like it, but if you want to grow and learn from mistakes, it's very important to face reality...
Thus if a Scripture says a certain thing, and the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture does specifically state Jesus comes AFTER the tribulation to gather His saints, then that is NOT open for debate. Either one agrees with what He said there, or they don't.

I totally agree that He is coming for the gathering from HEAVEN AND EARTH, just prior to the day of the Lord.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
So yes, there will be a rapture from the earth just before the Day of the Lord, but it will NOT be the Church. The Church will be gathered FROM HEAVEN, where they will be during the 70th week of Daniel. Just as the Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood. After this gathering from heaven and earth, all will return to heaven for the marriage supper. This is the great multitude.

And BECAUSE that is plainly written so no one can turn it around to point to some other time, but they still try to push a tradition from men that does go against it, then they are FIBBING, actually telling a lie AGAINST The Scripture.

The fig tree has two harvests, look it up. The Jews were supposed to be the first harvest but they went after Baalpeor. The Gentiles will be the first harvest.

Hos 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Now there's some Bible Scripture that is hard to understand, like Peter said in 2 Peter 3 about some of Paul's Epistles concerning the subject of earth ages. But not what Jesus stated below about the timing of His future return and gathering of His saints...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.KJV

This is the gathering from heaven and earth that occurs at the 6th seal. It is not the Church being gathered from the earth.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Our Heavenly Father will let you believe whatever you want, even deceive yourself if that's what you want. But by staying in God's Word as written, asking Him for understanding and studying HIS way, then you won't be deceived by any man, not even by the coming Antichrist.

Thank you brother. However, I think it would be better if you weren't looking for the Antichrist. You need to find out what you really need to be looking for because He is coming in an hour that you think not.[/QUOTE]

 

[The Light]

God's Word reveals there is ONLY ONE MORE COMING BY CHRIST, and it is on the very LAST DAY of this present world, which is when the resurrection will happen, and is when His faithful saints still alive will be gathered on His way to the Mount of Olives, where He ascended to Heaven from.

Actually Gods Word reveals two comings. One coming at the six seal. It is the gathering from heaven and earth BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD. That means BEFORE WRATH. That means BEFORE the trumpets.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Then at the end of wrath, it is revealed that He will come with His armies from heaven and Armageddon will happen. So that is 2 comings that are REVEALED.

There is also another coming when He will come THAT IS NOT REVEALED. He will come for His Church in a day and hour that you think not. Had the GOODMAN known when He was coming He would have watched.

It the false pre-trib rapture theory which tries to ADD another coming PRIOR to the "great tribulation", which is WHY it is a FALSE theory FROM MEN, and not from God in His Word.

The pretrib model that is preached is incorrect. But there will be a pretrib rapture and you should learn what to look for because the time draws nigh.

But your support of the FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY, which is from men and not from Christ, shows you DO NOT KEEP HIS SAYING.

I can tell you that the GOODMAN will not know when He is coming unless He is watching and is ready. You don't know what to watch for.

 

[ewq1938]

Actually Gods Word reveals two comings. One coming at the six seal.

There is only one coming of Christ left, and it doesn't take place when the 6th seal is opened. Jesus remains in heaven to open the 7th seal proving he didn't leave when the 6th was opened. The 6th seal speaks of 7th trump events. The actual real time coming is when the 7th trump sounds. The prophecy of the 6th seal is fulfilled at that time.

 

[dad]

God's Word reveals there is ONLY ONE MORE COMING BY CHRIST,

One coming to the earth, and one going into the air to meet Him there. You conflate the two.

As for your attempts to accuse and blame others, sorry, You need to do more than pretend your claims are supported.

 

[ewq1938]

One coming to the earth, and one going into the air to meet Him there. You conflate the two

There aren't two. The one coming is to the air. The coming is not to the ground. He will only step on the ground when all events of that time are done.

 

[dad]

There aren't two. The one coming is to the air. The coming is not to the ground. He will only step on the ground when all events of that time are done.

I don't think so.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't think so.

Is Christ in the air or on the ground when fighting at Armageddon?

 

[dad]

Is Christ in the air or on the ground when fighting at Armageddon?

If he is in the air would that be before His feet rested on the mount of Olives? Or after? Do we know? Once Jesus returns to earth would you say He cannot fly?

 

[ewq1938]

If he is in the air would that be before His feet rested on the mount of Olives?

Yes. We can see that he is coming from heaven:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Once Jesus returns to earth would you say He cannot fly?

He doesn't lose the ability to fly. He has to fly to arrive at the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) location.

 

[dad]

Yes. We can see that he is coming from heaven:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


He doesn't lose the ability to fly. He has to fly to arrive at the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) location.

I am not sure that one verse means that He destroys all the wicked on His way down. After all, does He not judge nations near Israel? A valley is formed after the mount of Olives splits in two, if I recall. It only splits after He sets foot on it I think.

 

[ewq1938]

I am not sure that one verse means that He destroys all the wicked on His way down.

He is on a flying horse as the sword slays. Only after Armageddon will he step upon the ground.

 

[dad]

He is on a flying horse as the sword slays. Only after Armageddon will he step upon the ground.

I heard you say that. However the single verse you cited does not say that. I also showed how the valley of decision will form when the mountain splits east to west, and that is obviously after He has set feet on it.