They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[rwb]

I don't necessarily disagree with you here. I think the issue is discerning which texts are involving the here and now in the manner you submitted, and which texts are involving being literally bodily resurrected at some point. If we consider the first resurrection per Revelation 20, for example, take someone such as the thief on the cross, who Jesus said would be in paradise with Him one day. Where did he ever have the opportunity to do any of those things you submitted, before he died, if it was not until he was on his deathbed that he became saved? Not to mention, Jesus hadn't even died yet, let alone resurrected. When does this thief get the opportunity to reign with Christ a thousand years and be a priest unto God and Christ? While he is in a disembodied state, or when he is in a bodily state again, meaning when he is bodily resurrected?

In Rev 20 John doesn't limit the full embodiment of those in heaven to the martyred saints. He also writes of those blessed and holy who have part in the first resurrection, and have overcome the second death, called priests of God and of Christ. They too will be faithful unto death but are not among the martyred saints. But neither are they excluded from the fullness of the faithful from every tribe, kindred, language and tongue.

David, you will never be able to understand Rev 20 if you continue to believe a thousand years are ONE thousand literal years of time. Rev 20 makes sense only when you realize a thousand years symbolically refers to time that is given the Church to take the Gospel of Christ into all the nations of the earth that the spiritual Kingdom of God shall be complete. And you must also make a distinction between being made spiritually alive when we partake of the first resurrection that is the physical resurrection of Christ, and the bodily resurrection that shall come but one time to all who have physically died in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[grafted branch]

No because the context of Rev 20 regarding the first resurrection is the first of two groups of the dead resurrecting. It has nothing at all to do with any other resurrections.

So then the actual first general resurrection of a group of believers is not the first resurrection because the first resurrection only pertains to a different group.
What happens with the seven trumpets? I could argue that they happen to different groups also, so the last trumpet could happen at any time as long as it happens to a different group of people.
I don’t agree with this line of thinking.

 

[rwb]

They were physically resurrected. You are the one thinking they were not physically resurrected.

The first resurrection is the physical resurrection.

Yes, the first resurrection is the physical resurrection of Christ that every human who desires everlasting life through Him must have part in. NONE but Christ are physically resurrected before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[grafted branch]

The first resurrection is when all of Christ's followers are bodily resurrected.
The second resurrection is when everyone else is resurrected to face judgment.

So if a believer dies during the millennium they aren’t resurrected? Or would they take part in the second resurrection?

 

[Davidpt]

This is how I addressed this in reply #169

The only resurrection mentioned in these verses is the resurrection of Christ. I believe those bodies came out of the graves a spiritual body of believers who ascended to heaven with Christ as living souls.

I don't have a clue what this means, though. What are you meaning by a spiritual body, and why would a spiritual body be sleeping until this event occurred? You don't think those graves contained literal bodies and that their literal bodies walked out of those graves? But not as skeleton bones nor dust of the earth, but as bodies where flesh was restored to them. Let me ask this. If one were to visit these graves in question and dig them up, what would they find? Would they find any remains of these saints, or would these graves be empty?

They didn't go into the physical city of Jerusalem, which was no longer the holy city. They went with Christ into the heavenly city, New Jerusalem that God had prepared for them, where they were seen by the hosts of heaven, as the spirits of justified men made perfect.

I don't see it myself. The text makes it clear that the literal city of Jerusalem is meant. There is zero reason to take Jerusalem in a different sense instead.

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


The text says they appeared unto many. How can the many not be meaning anyone living in the literal city of Jerusalem at the time? One moment they are coming out of their graves, and the next moment you have them in the heavenly city, New Jerusalem, in heaven, even though the literal city of Jerusalem was where this event was taking place..

 

[rwb]

Jesus, having been quickened by the Spirit, was not spiritually raised from the dead.

Jesus was physically resurrected from the dead three days after He was crucified! But His spirit ascended into the hands of His Father when He died on the cross! By knowing this we have blessed assurance that our spirit too shall return to the Father when our flesh is dead, and when the last trumpet sounds, just as Jesus was bodily resurrected to life again, so too shall all who have died in Him shall also be.

 

[Davidpt]

So if a believer dies during the millennium they aren’t resurrected? Or would they take part in the second resurrection?

How could a believer possibly die during the millennium if believers put on bodily immortality prior to it or at the beginning of it? IOW, since when can immortal beings die?

 

[rwb]

If it is not flesh and blood, I do not know what you are talking about because it sure won't be a human body.

JBO, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God because our flesh and blood that dies is sown in corruption but resurrected in immortality and incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Once our body has been changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible, we shall inherit the whole new earth that shall be when this first mortal/corrupt earth passes away. The spiritual body of believers in heaven are the holy city, New Jerusalem that is now being spiritually built in heaven that shall come down from heaven to the new earth.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Revelation 21:1-3 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

[grafted branch]

How could a believer possibly die during the millennium if believers put on bodily immortality prior to it or at the beginning of it? IOW, since when can immortal beings die?

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Ezekiel 44:22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.

These two verses indicate that people will die during the millennium. What is your explanation for these verses?

 

[Davidpt]

But His spirit ascended into the hands of His Father when He died on the cross!

Apparently then, you have Jesus being in 3 different places at the same time. His body being in the earth, His soul being in the heart of the earth, and His spirit being in heaven.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Guess where the heart is located? It is located in the center. Therefore, the heart of the earth is meaning the center of the earth. Can't be meaning His tomb then.

Not to mention, if you are correct that His spirit ascended into the hands of His Father when He died on the cross, this obviously means Jesus lied to us and to Mary when He said the following after having risen from the dead.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[Zao is life]

It has two groups of those who die in faith having part in the first resurrection which is the resurrection of Christ. The first group are the martyred headless souls John sees alive in heaven after physical death.

Copy @ewq1938 (above reply was addressed to yourself)

John is not telling us that he saw them "alive in heaven". He's telling us that he saw them alive in their own human bodies:

And they lived [záō] and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The word záō in the New Testament ALWAYS (without exception) either refers to the living God, OR to humans who are alive in their own human bodies. When záō refers to humans, it never refers to people who are not alive in their own human bodies. I listed each and every New Testament verse using the word in the OP of this thread, and yet you have flatly ignored the fact in order to maintain your false assertion that John did not see them bodily resurrected after being beheaded (like the text in Revelation 20:4-6 says they are).

Revelation 20:4-6 is not talking about two groups of people. The words záō in verse 4 (alive in their own human bodies) and anástasis in verses 5-6 (which ALWAYS refers to the bodily resurrection from death in the New Testament) go together.

For you convenience I'll place the list of verses using the word záō here again (not that I think you will acknowledge the truth about this, but for the sake of everyone else too I'll place it here again).

Záō: list of verses

Below is a list of the New Testament scriptures using the Greek word záō (alive). All of them are referring either to the living (záō) God, or in reference to humans being alive (záō) in their own human bodies:-

|| Matthew 16:16; Matthew 22:32; Matthew 26:63; Matthew 27:63; Mark 5:23; Mark 12:27; Mark 16:11; Luke 2:36; Luke 4:4; Luke 10:28; Luke 15:13; Luke 20:38; Luke 24:5; Luke 24:23; John 4:10; John 4:11; John 4:50; John 4:51; John 4:53; John 5:25; John 6:51; John 6:57; John 6:58; John 6:69; John 7:38; John 11:25; John 11:26; John 14:19; Acts 1:3; Acts 7:38; Acts 9:41; Acts 10:42; Acts 14:15; Acts 17:28; Acts 20:12; Acts 22:22; Acts 25:19; Acts 25:24; Acts 26:5; Acts 28:4; Romans 1:17; Romans 6:2; Romans 6:10; Romans 6:11; Romans 6:13; Romans 7:1; Romans 7:2; Romans 7:3; Romans 7:9; Romans 8:12; Romans 8:13; Romans 9:26; Romans 10:5; Romans 12:1; Romans 14:7; Romans 14:8; Romans 14:9; Romans 14:11; 1 Corinthians 7:39; 1 Corinthians 9:14; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 3:3; 2 Corinthians 4:11; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 2 Corinthians 6:9; 2 Corinthians 6:16; 2 Corinthians 13:4; Galatians 2:14; Galatians 2:19; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 3:11; Galatians 3:12; Galatians 5:25; Philippians 1:21; Philippians 1:22; Colossians 2:20; Colossians 3:7; 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 3:8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; 1 Timothy 3:15; 1 Timothy 4:10; 1 Timothy 5:6; 1 Timothy 6:17; 2 Timothy 3:12; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 2:12; Hebrews 2:15; Hebrews 3:12; Hebrews 4:12; Hebrews 7:8; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 9:17; Hebrews 10:20; Hebrews 10:31; Hebrews 10:38; Hebrews 12:9; Hebrews 12:22; James 4:15; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 Peter 2:4; 1 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 4:5; 1 Peter 4:6; 1 John 4:9; Revelation 1:18; Revelation 2:8; Revelation 3:1; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 7:2; Revelation 7:17; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 13:14; Revelation 15:7; Revelation 16:3; Revelation 19:20 (cast alive into the lake of fire); Revelation 20:4. ||

The passage is talking about only one group of people, no matter how much you try to spin your false Amil interpretation by ignoring the facts regarding both words.​

 

[Davidpt]

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Ezekiel 44:22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.

These two verses indicate that people will die during the millennium. What is your explanation for these verses?

If anyone dies during the Premil millennium it won't be believers, that's for certain. In spite of what you brought up says, Revelation 20 indicates no one dies again until after the millennium. Meaning when they are devoured by fire from God out of heaven.

As to Isaiah 65:20, I'm not certain how to interpret that correctly. As to Ezekiel 44:22 I don't see that being applicable to a future millennium. Granted, some Premils do apply that to a future millennium, I don't nor do a lot of other Premils, either. To be Premil does not require that one has to believe Ezekiel's temple is involving the millennium.

 

[rwb]

Apparently then, you have Jesus being in 3 different places at the same time. His body being in the earth, His soul being in the heart of the earth, and His spirit being in heaven.

No. While clothed in human flesh Christ was a living soul on earth with a body of flesh + spirit (breath of life). When His flesh died on the cross His spirit returned to the Father in heaven as does the spirit of every human. (Ecc 12:7) His flesh lay in the tomb for three days, but His spirit that returned to the Father still a living soul, because His spirit did not die when His flesh did.

Not to mention, if you are correct that His spirit ascended into the hands of His Father when He died on the cross, this obviously means Jesus lied to us and to Mary when He said the following after having risen from the dead.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Though the spirit of Christ returned to the Father when His flesh died, He would not ascend to the Father physically for another 40 days. That would be when His disciples witnessed Him physically ascending up to heaven in the clouds, in the same manner He will be seen coming again.

Christ was basically telling Mary there would still be some time for her to touch Him, but at that time He wanted Mary to go and tell His disciples all that she had witnessed. This is proven because Christ later told Thomas to touch Him so that he might believe He had resurrected from the dead.

John 20:26-28 (KJV) And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

 

[rwb]

If anyone dies during the Premil millennium it won't be believers, that's for certain. In spite of what you brought up says, Revelation 20 indicates no one dies again until after the millennium. Meaning when they are devoured by fire from God out of heaven.

As to Isaiah 65:20, I'm not certain how to interpret that correctly. As to Ezekiel 44:22 I don't see that being applicable to a future millennium. Granted, some Premils do apply that to a future millennium, I don't nor do a lot of other Premils, either. To be Premil does not require that one has to believe Ezekiel's temple is involving the millennium.

Perhaps the prophecy applies to TIME we are living in since the first advent of Christ? The time symbolized a thousand years???

 

[Zao is life]

Apparently then, you have Jesus being in 3 different places at the same time. His body being in the earth, His soul being in the heart of the earth, and His spirit being in heaven.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Guess where the heart is located? It is located in the center. Therefore, the heart of the earth is meaning the center of the earth. Can't be meaning His tomb then.

Not to mention, if you are correct that His spirit ascended into the hands of His Father when He died on the cross, this obviously means Jesus lied to us and to Mary when He said the following after having risen from the dead.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I agree. He also preached to the spirits in prison in hades by the Spirit.

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; 19 in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water);

 

[Zao is life]

Perhaps the prophecy applies to TIME we are living in since the first advent of Christ? The time symbolized a thousand years???

My posts #191 leaves your above theory dead in the water.

 

[JBO]

Okay then. Make sense of 1 Corinthians 15 for me. We can spend too much time telling each other what a resurrection body is NOT. But Paul offered the Corinthians proof of the resurrection based on eyewitness reports of Jesus. He appeared to Cephas and hundreds of other people. And he offered his hands, feet, and side to Thomas as proof that he was resurrected. He was in the tomb for three days ruling out the likelihood of resuscitation. After his resurrection, Jesus had a body that people could see, touch, and recognize.

Jesus was resurrected, i.e., ἔγερσις [egersis]; He was raised from the dead much like Lazarus. Every reference to the resurrection at the end of the age when Christ returns is ἀνάστασις [anastasis].

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised (ἔγερσις [egersis])from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection (ἀνάστασις [anastasis]) of the dead?

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit's choice of words is happenstance. Note Peter's use in 1 Peter 3:21-22:

1Pe 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection (ἀνάστασις [anastasis]) of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

That says to me that Jesus'(ἀνάστασις [anastasis]) resurrection occurred when he ascended (spiritually) into heaven. His (ἔγερσις [egersis]) resurrection occurred when he was raised (bodily) from the dead following His crucifixion. I believe our resurrection when Jesus returns will be the ἀνάστασις [anastasis]) resurrection, i.e., a spiritual resurrection as stated in 1 Corinthians 15:44.

 

[rwb]

John is not telling us that he saw them "alive in heaven". He's telling us that he saw them alive in their own human bodies:

Physically resurrected without a head? How else would John know they had been beheaded? He saw them physically alive without heads?
Strange doctrine!

The passage is talking about only one group of people, no matter how much you try to spin your false Amil interpretation by ignoring the facts regarding both words.

You seem to be so preoccupied trying to disprove Biblical truth that you have become altogether blinded from receiving truth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Is it too far a stretch that I believe humankind fitted with immortality and incorruptibility will once again be in a state of innocence like God created man to be in the beginning before sin and death through sin became part of human reality? The whole creation will be made new again.

I don't know about innocence because I think God intends that we remember what it was like to be a sinner. Our life experiences will add to our wisdom in the long run. But I agree with the rest of what you said.

 

[Zao is life]

No. While clothed in human flesh Christ was a living soul on earth with a body of flesh + spirit (breath of life). When His flesh died on the cross His spirit returned to the Father in heaven as does the spirit of every human. (Ecc 12:7) His flesh lay in the tomb for three days, but His spirit that returned to the Father still a living soul, because His spirit did not die when His flesh did.

No. He preached by the Spirit to the spirits imprisoned in hades:

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water).

Though the spirit of Christ returned to the Father when His flesh died, He would not ascend to the Father physically for another 40 days. That would be when His disciples witnessed Him physically ascending up to heaven in the clouds, in the same manner He will be seen coming again.

Christ was basically telling Mary there would still be some time for her to touch Him, but at that time He wanted Mary to go and tell His disciples all that she had witnessed. This is proven because Christ later told Thomas to touch Him so that he might believe He had resurrected from the dead.

John 20:26-28 (KJV) And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.