They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[rwb]

No. He preached by the Spirit to the spirits imprisoned in hades:

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water).

So how does this prevent His spirit from returning to the Father when He died on the cross?

 

[Zao is life]

Physically resurrected without a head? How else would John know they had been beheaded? He saw them physically alive without heads?
Strange doctrine!

Oh c'mon. Your posts become so childish at times. The fact that John saw them alive in their own human bodies (zao) after they had been beheaded and the passage is linked to the anastasis makes it pretty obvious to all that they had been beheaded but were no longer headless when John saw them.

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived (zao - meaning one thing and one thing only: alive in their own human bodies) and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Netfree version says "who had been beheaded". KJV says "that were beheaded". The words zao and anastasis both make it obvious that they were not headless when John saw them living and reigning with Christ a thousand years.

You seem to be so preoccupied trying to disprove Biblical truth that you have become altogether blinded from receiving truth.

That's what you are obviously doing.

Like I said, hurling accusations which are false is never going to prove what you want so desperately to prove but fail miserably at (because what you assert is just not true and it's totally obvious already that you are only still asserting what is already disproved by the Greek text because you desperately need it to conform to Amil).

 

[grafted branch]

As to Ezekiel 44:22 I don't see that being applicable to a future millennium. Granted, some Premils do apply that to a future millennium, I don't nor do a lot of other Premils, either. To be Premil does not require that one has to believe Ezekiel's temple is involving the millennium.

So then if Ezekiel’s temple isn’t in the millennium and it doesn’t physically exist today then there’s two options. 1) it’s only meant figuratively, or 2) it gets built then destroyed prior to the millennium.

 

[rwb]

Oh c'mon. Your posts become so childish at times. The fact that John saw them alive in their own human bodies (zao) after they had been beheaded and the passage is linked to the anastasis makes it pretty obvious to all that they had been beheaded but were no longer headless when John saw them.

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived (zao - meaning one thing and one thing only: alive in their own human bodies) and reigned with Christ a thousand years."


That's what you are obviously doing.

Like I said, hurling accusations which are false is never going to prove what you want so desperately to prove but fail miserably at (because what you assert is just not true and it's totally obvious already that you are only still asserting what is already disproved by the Greek text because you desperately need it to conform to Amil).

It's so easy to point out the inconsistency found in your unbiblical doctrine!

 

[Zao is life]

So how does this prevent His spirit from returning to the Father when He died on the cross?

Provide the verse in the New Testament which says that when He prayed to the Father to receive His Spirit at the moment of His physical death, that the Spirit did not remain with Him even in death, and I'll provide you with a verse which says the Spirit did remain with Him even in death.

But oh, I forgot, I already provided it. You just have bad habit of ignoring all passages, verses and facts in scripture that interfere with your own private interpretations of scripture.

 

[Zao is life]

It's so easy to point out the inconsistency found in your unbiblical doctrine!

So you're calling the New Testament itself "unbiblical". All I did was quote a verse. And all I did in another post was prove (using scripture) that those who John saw alive in Revelation 20:4 were alive in their own human bodies.

I'm not surprised though that you regard the Bible "unbiblical" whenever it interferes with your own private interpretations of scripture.

 

[Davidpt]

Physically resurrected without a head? How else would John know they had been beheaded? He saw them physically alive without heads?
Strange doctrine!


You seem to be so preoccupied trying to disprove Biblical truth that you have become altogether blinded from receiving truth.

Speaking of strange doctrines, meaning if Amil is in mind here. and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded(Revelation 20:4)---they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years(Revelation 20:6). It can't get any stranger than this unless one is maybe Catholic or something, since Catholics likely don't find that strange at all, the fact they have been known to pray to departed saints.

What you seem to be missing, Revelation 20:4 is showing a transition state into another state. Initially they are all dead, thus John sees the souls of them that were beheaded. Do they remain in that state, though? Apparently not once the following below takes place. Except you already have them reigning a thousand years before they are beheaded first, though the text indicates they are beheaded first, then they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. In order to live again one has to be dead first. Isn't that what a resurrection means, to rise from the dead? How can they rise from the dead before they are beheaded? Did Jesus rise from the dead before they hung Him on the cross?

and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years(Revelation 20:4)---This is the first resurrection(Revelation 20:5)

 

[grafted branch]

Speaking of strange doctrines, meaning if Amil is in mind here. and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded(Revelation 20:4)---they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years(Revelation 20:6). It can't get any stranger than this unless one is maybe Catholic or something, since Catholics likely don't find that strange at all, the fact they have been known to pray to departed saints.

Doesn’t being literally beheaded also cause a problem for Premil?

There would be no need to traumatize anyone, in the future an option could easily be given to believers where they could go into a clinic, get anesthetized, and painlessly get their head chopped off. Wouldn’t this be something that is highly valued because that would mean you get to reign with Christ for the millennium? This would certainly be the easiest, most efficient route for the beast to take in order to eliminate believers.

If so then the tribulation would be a very peaceful time, families or entire churches could just all go to the clinics at the same time and not have to miss their friends and family.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We choose to believe Christ when He tells says those who believe in Him HAVE everlasting life or we choose not to believe Him because death of our physical body is our destiny.

When it says we "have" eternal life, we "have" it in the same way we "have" an inheritance. We "have" it because it belongs to us and we are trusting the promise of a trustworthy person to give it to us when the time comes.

When we have been sealed with the promise from Christ as Eph 1:13-14 tells us, we have blessed assurance that even though we know our natural body will die, we, through Christ's Spirit in us have everlasting life. We have everlasting life now, but we don't yet have resurrected immortal body of flesh in this mortal and corruptible age.

I'm confused and I apologize if I got you wrong. I thought you were saying that we are promised a spirit body of some kind.

I am not my body . . .

"I respectfully disagree with the idea that one can exist as a spirit or soul without a body. Although in conversations concerning spirituality we may refer to ourselves as having three parts - body, soul, and spirit - it's important to understand that each part is interconnected. If the body dies, so does the soul and spirit. If the spirit dies, the body and soul die with it. And if the soul dies, the entire being dies. Therefore, it's incorrect to assume that one part can live without the others."

Additionally, humans often identify themselves with their body, so it is challenging for me to imagine not having one. For instance, if Zoe pinched me on the shoulder, I would react by saying "Ouch, you pinched ME," because my body and I are closely linked. I am an integrated being, and anything that happens to my body also happens to me. Therefore, when I'm hurt, injured, or startled, I don't say, "You hurt a body," but rather "I was hurt," "I was injured," or "I was startled."

When I see my reflection in the mirror, I identify that image with myself. That person in the mirror is me.

I am my spirit with His Spirit in my mortal flesh. Like Paul, I too long for the day when I can be absent from this mortal corruptible body to be present with the Lord in heaven. A spiritual body of believers the faithful saints shall be when our flesh is dead and returns to the earth.

"I am having trouble understanding Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians 15 if my post-resurrection body is not a physical structure. As of now, my physical structure consists of bones, flesh, and organs. While I don't know what my resurrection body will look like, I do know that it will be a physical structure. Since Jesus himself had a physical body post-resurrection, I believe that I too will have a physical body post-resurrection."

Yes, I also long for the day when my mortal body too shall be resurrected immortal & incorruptible fit for everlasting physical life on the new earth. We have everlasting spiritual life through Christ now, and we shall have everlasting physical life through Christ in the age to come.

Right on. Yes. That is what I thought. I don't know why I thought you were saying something else.

It is generally believed that in this passage Paul is speaking only of the resurrection of our physical body when the last trumpet sounds. But before telling us when our body will be resurrected and changed, Paul goes into much detail explaining when our body dies that we as a spiritual body are raised and become a celestial/heavenly body as is the second Adam, the Lord from heaven.

I respectfully disagree with your point there. There are those who think Paul is speaking about the "stuff" of the Resurrected body. When we are resurrected we will be made of "spiritual stuff." A "spiritual body" is made of spiritual stuff.

There are others who understand Paul differently, speaking about the source of the body. The source of a "natural body" is biological and the result of two parents. Paul calls it a "natural" body because it came into existence in a natural way. He calls it a "spiritual" body because it comes into existence in a supernatural way.

On earth we are as the first man of the earth, and in heaven we shall be as the Lord. As we bear the image of the earthly man, so too we shall after our body dies bear the image of the Lord.

Paul makes reference to heaven and earth, and there are at least two ways to understand these terms: 1) places, or 2) qualities. Obviously, heaven and earth are two places, but each has unique qualities that make them distinctive. Jesus points this out when he speaks about the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 16:19-21

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

According to Jesus, heaven is a place where things exist forever. Nothing can destroy things in heaven, and no one can steal anything I have stored in heaven. The adjective "heavenly" indicates something that is permanent, indestructible, and not subject to theft.

Paul says, "There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies." Just as treasures in heaven are eternal and will not rust or fall into ruin, a heavenly body is eternal, will not rust and fall into ruin. Just as treasures on earth will rust and fall into ruin, earthly bodies will decay and fall into ruin. The terms "heavenly" and "earthly" are adjectives describing an item as destructible or indestructible.

I beg to differ! According to what Paul has written above when the flesh of faithful saints dies, we are raised a spiritual body. This agrees with the words of Solomon who tells us our flesh returns to earth, and our spirit returns to God who gave it. (Ecc 12:7)

I agree, if what you mean by "spiritual body" is a physical structure - a body - that comes into existence through supernatural means and has heavenly characteristics of indestructibility, and etc.

Yes, I agree. Just as Jesus was bodily resurrected, believers too shall be bodily resurrected when the last trumpet sounds. And just as the spirit of Christ returned to the Father when He breathed His last, so too the spirit of all who die in faith shall return to the Father in heaven alive through Christ's Spirit within us.

I agree except I am uncertain about the disposition of our spirits.

I know this is a common doctrine embraced by some.

Including John the Apostle as we can see in Revelation 20. :) John says that thrones were set up and that some were raised from the dead. These people are the first resurrection.

We read NOTHING of two physical resurrections apparently separated by ONE thousand years.

Revelation 20 reads that way to me. The thousand-year reign of Christ is recorded in Luke 17. In that context, Jesus refers to the millennial kingdom as "the days of the Son of man."

 

[Davidpt]

2) it gets built then destroyed prior to the millennium.

I don't see that being a valid option based on what the following says.

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Assuming this temple is meant here, the text says-- the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever. Can't dwell there forever if it gets built then destroyed. This basically kills 2 birds with one stone. If this temple gets built it can never be destroyed, which then proves a literal built temple can't be meant prior to nor during the millennium, because the temple meant per this passage, assuming that is what is meant here, the text indicates the place of His throne, and the place of the soles of His feet, He shall dwell there in the midst of the children of Israel for ever.

To insist this temple gets built and is there during the millennium is to contradict verse 7 if this same one insists it will no longer be there after the millennium. The same logic applies per the option you submitted. I'm pretty certain forever means never ending. The best bet then, this temple never gets built and is not involving the future.

As to your other option, I don't really know if that might explain things instead or not.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So if a believer dies during the millennium they aren’t resurrected? Or would they take part in the second resurrection?

Really good question. I have no answer to that question. If I were to guess, and it is only a guess, I would say that they take part in the second resurrection and enter eternity with other believers. But admittedly, I don't know the answer.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus, having been quickened by the Spirit, was not spiritually raised from the dead. He was bodily raised from the dead.

Absolutely. Never said otherwise. But I very much disagree that Jesus ~ as God ~ was quickened by the Spirit. Now, yes, He became man, and was tempted in every way we are, so also fully man, so in that sense, I would agree. So... :) no... and yes. :) I'm fully aware of that Peter says in 1 Peter 3. :) We have to make that distinction. In the sense that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are all three one in each other, Jesus quickened Himself. Maybe none of us can quite wrap our heads around it, but it's true. :)

Christ's resurrection is His bodily resurrection.​

Sure.

Our spiritual birth is not Christ's bodily resurrection, but through it and because of it...​

Absolutely.

...because of Christ's bodily resurrection we will be bodily raised with Him...​

Ah. Now... Yes, absolutely. However, the 'with' seems misplaced here. That may sound like a very small thing, a word parsing of sorts, but it is very important, actually. If you were to clarify that and say that we will be bodily raised like Him, then I would be perfectly fine with that of course. You may say that 'with' or 'like' makes no difference; not sure about that... But Paul says in Romans 6:5, "For if we have been united with (Christ) in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His." Eventually, we will be resurrected physically/bodily, just as He was.

also, because we are in Him through spiritual birth by His Spirit (i.e we have been spiritually quickened, NOT "raised").​

Okay, well, we disagree on what you put in parenthesis here. Perhaps you would agree if I rephrased that to say we are raised as a result of having been spiritually quickened...

According to what you asserted below, our being born again = our "spiritual" resurrection, but that's not what it's saying. You have taken our spiritual birth that came to us through HIS resurrection, and turned it into our "spiritual" resurrection.

But WE have not been bodily resurrected from death - Christ has - and we have been born again THROUGH His bodily resurrection from the dead, and because we are in Him who was bodily resurrected from death, we are synegeírō - raised with Him.

It's still not OUR egeírō, i.e WE have not been bodily OR "spiritually" (of which there is no such thing) raised from the dead, but it's HIS egeírō, HIS anástasis - but because we are IN HIM through His Spirit in us (who gave us birth) we have been synegeírō with Him (raised with Him).

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He has

(A) [syzōopoiéō] quickened together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(B) And has raised us up together [synegeírō], and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

So no, there is no about-face on my part. Just you (or your theology) inserting the words "spiritual resurrection" into the words "born again":



There is a HUGE difference to our having being raised either spiritually or bodily on one hand (because the words relating to the resurrection always refer to the resurrection of the body), and, on the other hand, through His Spirit in us, our being raised with Him, as you own quote in your own post to @Davidpt clearly shows:



@PinSeeker Those who John saw as resurrected in the first resurrection had been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast. They had died, and risen again in the resurrection that will take place through Christ's resurrection when He returns. That's what the text is saying, before you insert "spiritually resurrected when we were born again" into the text.​

Fullness of the Gentiles, as I have said many times, the raising that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:4-6 is our spiritual ~ not bodily, but spiritual ~ resurrection. Peter speaks of it in 1 Peter 1 3-5 in a slightly different way. If you want to pin it down to something he specifically says, then I would point to his specifically saying that God has caused us to be born again. God causes this all to happen, whether we parse it into one, or two, or three, or however many "things." :) Now, if you insist ~ as you seem to be doing ~ on a sequence of events, then... that seems a little strident (or worse) to me, but okay... I would equate our being reborn of the Spirit and our quickening by the Spirit and put it in order this way:

1. our rebirth of the Spirit/quickening; being made alive
2. our spiritual resurrection ~ our being raised up and seated in the heavenly places in Christ

Whether you see this as one big event or two or more smaller, sequential events is, to me, very, very unimportant. :) I think I see it more as one big event, whereas you see it as two (or more possibly), but that seems ~ either way ~ a very unimportant distinction to make.

Now, I think I understand that you don't see it as a resurrection, and to me that's somewhat more important. Ah, well, maybe it's more than somewhat more important, but still not enough to quibble over. :)

Even so, though, none of this constitutes ~ to me, at least ~ anything to get so worked up about. :)

I mean, it happens. God saves us. God makes it happen, and Jesus did all this for us ~ even giving Himself for this purpose, to reconcile us to the Father, which is the ultimate act of selflessness... It's all just stupendous. And one day... one great Day... our faith will be sight, which is even... stupendous-er. :) So, all praise and glory to Him, right?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No. He preached by the Spirit to the spirits imprisoned in hades:

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water).

Just a side note: I believe the translation of the part in bold should say "in whom also Noah," speaking about Noah's preaching.

Noah was the one who preached to people while God waited for the ark to be built.

 

[Zao is life]

No, what I have repeatedly said is that we must partake of Christ's resurrected life, because He is the "first resurrection" to overcome the second death.

Maybe not in this thread. But unless my memory fails me, in a previous discussion with me you vehemently denied that being born of the Spirit is not = "spiritual resurrection" because I pointed out that all the verses in the New Testament talking about the resurrection and being raised are speaking only about the resurrection of the body.

I'm glad to see you may have changed your view (unless it's my memory that fails me), because you kept arguing in another thread (quite a while back) that being born again = "spiritual resurrection", and were using this to argue that Revelation 20:4-6 is referring to a "spiritual resurrection" which takes place at the time of new birth by the Spirit. Now you claim there are two groups being mentioned.

That's why Paul says that when our body is dead we as spiritual body ascend to heaven a living soul.

No one ascends to heaven. The only one who ever ascended to heaven is He who came down from heaven. If we have the Spirit of Christ in us and we are in Him then we are with Him where He is, both now and when we die.

Do you think the spirit giving Christ physical life for this earth returned to the Father in heaven DEAD?

Your response above was to my saying that Jesus was quickened by the Spirit and rose again bodily. You will have to explain what you think is the state of someone who has been quickened by the Spirit.

I think though that you actually knew what I was saying but wanted to imply that I was saying something else. I've noticed you do a lot of that, and not only with me.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Of course we don't physically partake of Christ's bodily resurrection, but our spirit does when we are born again through His Spirit within us.

What on earth are you talking about? I said that scripture says that when we are quickened by the Spirit it is through and because of Christ's death for our sins, His quickening, and His resurrection. The New Testament does not say that when we are born of the Spirit we are being quickened by His resurrection. It says we are being quickened by the Spirit through and because of His death for our sins, His quickening by the Spirit, and His resurrection. I said that it's still not OUR resurrection that it's talking about, though our resurrection is through and by and because of His resurrection, and needs to be preceded by our spiritual birth (quickening) by the Spirit.

You show you clearly understand how we are made alive in Christ before we physically die by having part in the resurrection life of Christ sending His Holy Spirit to give us spiritual life. Yet you continue to argue the first resurrection is our physical resurrection, and is not the resurrection of Christ???

I never made that claim. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the last Adam and Son of man who IS the resurrection AND the life.

Adam's death spread to all men, because all sinned. The last Adam's resurrection spreads to all men, because of His righteousness.

One death: Adam's death, which spread to all men.
One resurrection: The last Adam's (Christ's) resurrection, which spreads to all the sons of Adam.

But each in his own order. Christ the first-fruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

There will be a 2nd death. There will be no second sacrifice for sins and no second resurrection from the second death.

I think we are in agreement at least on that point.

But it's hard to know exactly what you believe because one moment you argue the first resurrection is the believers bodily resurrection from the dead, but you also say the first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ????

It's the first resurrection because it's still the resurrection of the sons of Adam through the resurrection of the last Adam (Christ), who IS the resurrection and the life.

I never said there will be a second resurrection. Not even once. You're assuming I will argue for a second resurrection after the millennium because that's what most Premils argue, though you never saw me saying it anywhere.

In Revelation 20:12 John sees the dead standing before God (and it uses the word nekrós, which means dead, and also means corpse). The very next verse says the sea delivered up the dead (nekrós) and death (thánatos) and hades delivered up the dead (nekrós) in them.

Revelation 20:12-13 do not use the word zao and they do not use the word anastasis (or any of the words associated with the resurrection.) Premils assume this is referring to a second resurrection because Revelation 20:5 says that the rest of the dead did not live (zao) again until the thousand years were complete. I do not know how to read it, but I do not assume a second resurrection.

So no kudos for once again claiming that I said something that I did not.​

At last it appears you truly do have understanding for exactly what/who the "first resurrection" is.

@rwb My apologies for this original response, which I have now deleted. I read your usual "it appears you have no understanding" instead of what it says above, this time.

Being born again is to be raised (not resurrected) from spiritual death to being spiritually alive because we partake of Christ's resurrection life through His Holy Spirit in us. Those who argue the first resurrection is our physical resurrection that comes in two phases are those like you who have not understanding of Rev 20.

Those who argue that being born again = rising from death (no matter how you spin it) like you have not the understanding of the difference between the quickening of the Spirit and the resurrection of the body. And I've already attempted to explain the difference to you but you have no understanding of the difference, so it's pointless explaining it again.

I did not like using the words "have not the understanding of" like you do because like I say, it's just childish nonsense, but I frequently use your own wording back at you to TRY and let you see how ridiculous such assertions are about another's intellect or spiritual understanding given by the Holy Spirit.

When people disagree with you, your posts become like an encyclopedia of how to hurl subtle insults.

Ridiculous. Dumb, actually.

I'll stop here

Good.

 

[Zao is life]

We don't go to heaven as a spirit as you suggest. According to Paul we are resurrected and if we aren't resurrected, we are without hope.

I don't know if that's true. Here are the biblical reasons why I disagree with you:-

Paul taught that all who dwell in Christ are already spiritually in heaven, where He is:

"(God) hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3).

Jesus promised the following reality for those who believe in Him:

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves." (John 14:10-11).

"Yet a little while and the world does not see Me any more. But you see Me. Because I live, you shall live also. At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:19-20).
"Dwell in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you dwell in Me." (John 15:4).

"Therefore what you heard from the beginning, let it dwell in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you will dwell in both the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us: everlasting life."(1 John 2:24-25).

So in reality, Paul could teach that "(God) hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3).

While Paul was still alive, he wrote a letter to the Christians in Philippi, expressing the desire (concerning these Christians and this church which he established), that he

"shall be ashamed in nothing, but as always now Christ shall be magnified in my body [soma] with all boldness, whether it is by life [zoe] or by death [thanatos]." (Philippians 1:20).

Then Paul implied, without any ambiguity, that those who die dwelling in Christ remain in Christ after death, when he added,

"For to me to live [záō] is Christ, and to die [apothnesko] is gain. But if I live [záō] in the flesh [sarx], this is the fruit of my labor.
Yet I do not know what I shall choose. For I am pressed together by the two:
having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more needful for you." (Philippians 1:20-24).

In another letter, written to a different congregation of Christians in another place, Paul wrote,

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our dwelling-place out of Heaven; if indeed in being clothed, we shall not be found naked.

For we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened; inasmuch as we do not wish to be unclothed, but to be clothed, so that the mortal might be swallowed up by the life.

And He who has worked in us for this same thing is God, who also is giving to us the earnest (guarantee) of the (Holy) Spirit. Then being always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight; then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord.
Therefore we are also laboring to be well-pleasing to Him, whether at home or away from home." (2 Corinthians 5:1-9).

Those who fall asleep in Christ are clothed with Christ's immortality, who alone is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16).

Nevertheless, until their own bodily resurrection, those who have died in Christ will not be found in a body (the way Jesus is), but Christ is risen.

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't know who you are quoting, but that was not from me.

You did say, JBO, the following:

"If you mean to say that mankind is spiritually dead from birth, then you are wrong. God forms the spirit in each of us. He doesn't give us a spirit dead at birth. He gives us a spirit alive and well at birth, Just like Adam and Eve, the spirit of a man dies when he sins. When we are reborn, the spirit comes alive again."

And that's just not right. :) Maybe you had quoted someone else as having said, "no such thing as dead in spirit" and left that in your post as if you had said it... Or, even if not, what I put in quotes above is equivalent. At any rate, there are... dead people... people who are dead in spirit... walking among us even now, every day. A terrible truth, but true none the less. The great thing is, not all will remain in that state; for now, God is still bringing people to belief and repentance. Perhaps you agree.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

So then the actual first general resurrection of a group of believers is not the first resurrection because the first resurrection only pertains to a different group.

All dead believers are resurrected at the same time, called the first resurrection. "the rest of the dead" do not resurrect until over a thousand years later which is the timeframe of the GWTJ seen in the middle of Rev 20.

What happens with the seven trumpets? I could argue that they happen to different groups also, so the last trumpet could happen at any time as long as it happens to a different group of people.

That would make the last trump not the last trump so that is clearly the wrong way to interpret. There are 7 end times trumps, the 6th is the trib and the 7th is the last when Christ returns.

 

[Timtofly]

I think you are the one not getting the point of the verse. It says, "....what we will be has not yet appeared...." That means, that those who claim that we shall be like the risen Jesus are wrong. Jesus appeared, Many saw Him. And that is not how we will be in the resurrectioin.

I don't know where you got that but it sure doesn't come from the Bible.

Neither is claiming Jesus was born in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Jesus did appear in the body He was born with on the mount of Transfiguration.

 

[grafted branch]

That would make the last trump not the last trump so that is clearly the wrong way to interpret. There are 7 end times trumps, the 6th is the trib and the 7th is the last when Christ returns.

But that’s my whole point, a resurrection after the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection would make the first resurrection not the first resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

The only resurrection mentioned in these verses is the resurrection of Christ. I believe those bodies came out of the graves a spiritual body of believers who ascended to heaven with Christ as living souls. Having died in faith waiting for Christ, the Redeemer to come to rescue them from death just as the prophets of old foretell the Messiah would.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

After Christ came and made atonement for sin and defeated death by His resurrection heaven was opened to them, and that part of the grave known of Old as Abraham's bosom was emptied. They didn't go into the physical city of Jerusalem, which was no longer the holy city. They went with Christ into the heavenly city, New Jerusalem that God had prepared for them, where they were seen by the hosts of heaven, as the spirits of justified men made perfect.

Hebrews 11:16 (KJV) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Revelation 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Just as John writes in Rev 20 those who have part in the first resurrection have overcome the second death. Because the first resurrection is the bodily resurrection of Christ who is the first resurrected to never die again. Since He has come and defeated sin and death, those who have part in His resurrection life before they die ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers after their physical body breathes its last. It is only our mortal & corruptible body that is destined to die, but we, who are of faith in Christ, having partaken of His resurrection life before our body dies have EVERLASTING LIFE, and we, the spiritual body of believers never die, just as Christ promised.

You are claiming we are not individuals with individual bodies. The church is just one corporate body, and no individual souls either.

The problem is that John says there are individual souls. Revelation 6 and Revelation 20. They all have individual bodies wearing individual clothes. Revelation 7:9-17