They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[PinSeeker]

…everlasting life is not achievable in this present age. Meaning in the literal sense. No one can remotely live forever in an age that is not everlasting to begin with. By believing now on Christ, this is what seals everlasting life in the future, meaning in the next age.

Absolutely.

That assuming one doesn't fall away instead, thus not once saved always saved.

We are kept not in our own power, but in the power of God, by His Spirit. He has the power to keep us from stumbling or falling away. He Who began a good work in us will ~ will, not “might” ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). As Peter says:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (1 Peter 1:3-5).

Is one going to argue that everlasting life is not meaning in the literal sense involving doing that bodily? Can anyone bodily live forever in this present age? Of course not.

Right.

Grace and peace to you!

 

[Davidpt]

Yes. However… See above. Those who suffer this second death are resurrected to ~ and after the final Judgment depart to, go away obediently into ~ eternal judgment.

Let's get on the same page here since I'm pretty certain you will see we are pretty much in agreement about this.

Which comes first? The bodily resurrection or the 2nd death? The former, obviously. Obviously then, in order to experience the 2nd death one has to be bodily resurrected first. It is then after they begin experiencing the 2nd death, that there is no resurrecting from. That is what I was applying that to, that after they have been cast into the LOF, the 2nd death, there is no resurrecting from that. This alone destroys Universalism since Universalism needs a resurrection from the 2nd death in order to be valid. Fortunately, not a whole lot of ppl believe in Universalism to begin with, yet there are some that do. I don't know why, since no one experiences 2 bodily resurrections to begin with. Meaning one after the first death and yet another one after the 2nd death. Only the former is true, the latter certainly isn't.

 

[JBO]

If the body resurrected is not flesh & bone why must it be changed to immortal and incorruptible? If the age to come on the new earth is going to be spiritual and not material why create a new heaven and new earth?

1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishabl

 

[PinSeeker]

We are born of the Spirit when the Spirit of God breathes life into us. It's not the same as "resurrection".​

It very much is a resurrection, but of the spirit within us, by the Spirit. And you seem to say that very thing later in this post, especially by pointing out what Paul says in Ephesians 2, yet still deny it. Interesting… and puzzling at the same time.

The words that speak about being made alive | being brought to life ("quickened") by the Spirit | breath of God (zōopoiéō and syzōopoiéō), are always talking about being born (gennao) of the Spirit, and never speak of "resurrection".​

See, here you say this, and I’m right there with you… :)… but then right after, you say this:

Our quickening and resurrection:

The word syzōopoiéō (made alive together with Christ) is used twice in the New Testament, each time telling us that our quickening and resurrection occurs because of and together with:

(A) the quickening of Christ by the Spirit; and

(B) His resurrection:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He has

(A) [syzōopoiéō] quickened together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(B) And has raised us up together [synegeírō] *, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The word synegeírō refers to the resurrection of the body from death.

Yeah, just puzzling. An affirmation, and the a total aboutface. Or… well, the other way around, really. Astonishing. But this is a raising from the dead, a resurrection. Not physical, or of the body, but absolutely a resurrection. This is the first resurrection John refers to in his vision in Revelation 20, and you and I are truly blessed to share in it.

The

There are no verses in the New Testament speaking about a "spiritual" resurrection.

The New Testament never conflates the resurrection of the body with the spiritual birth which precedes it.​

Of course not, and neither am I.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

We are kept not in our own power, but in the power of God, by His Spirit. He has the power to keep us from stumbling or falling away. He Who began a good work in us will ~ will, not “might” ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). As Peter says:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (1 Peter 1:3-5).

IMO, one is not rightly dividing the Word of God by cherry picking passages that appear to be supporting their position while ignoring passages that appear to be disproving their position.

For example.

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Obviously, verse 21 and 22 can't happen to an unsaved Gentile. IOW, one can't get cut off from something they had no part in to begin with. It can only happen to a saved Gentile. And if it does happen at some point, meaning this--otherwise thou also shalt be cut off---how does that remotely equal once saved always saved? Is one going to argue that the Gentiles meant in verse 21-22, that if they were to get cut off for whatever reason, that it simply means they were never saved to begin with? Or that it means they don't actually get cut off though it plainly says they do?

 

[PinSeeker]

Let's get on the same page here since I'm pretty certain you will see we are pretty much in agreement about this.

Lol! Well, I hope so, but if not, it’s… okay. :)

Which comes first? The bodily resurrection or the 2nd death? The former, obviously.

Right…

Obviously then, in order to experience the 2nd death one has to be bodily resurrected first.

Sure… I don’t think I have to add this here, but I will, anyway… All are bodily resurrected, but not all to the same thing. We see this in what Jesus says in John 5:28-29.

It is then after they begin experiencing the 2nd death, that there is no resurrecting from.

Sure. Right.

That is what I was applying that to, that after they have been cast into the LOF, the 2nd death, there is no resurrecting from that. This alone destroys universalism…

Sure. I’m… not really sure how universalism is entering int this conversation…. :)

no one experiences 2 bodily resurrections to begin with. Meaning one after the first death and yet another one after the 2nd death. Only the former is true, the latter certainly isn't.

Sure. Absolutely. But I’ll just say that annihilationism is… just as wrong as universalism. Don’t know if you agree with that or not, but… yeah. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

IMO, one is not rightly dividing the Word of God by cherry picking passages that appear to be supporting their position while ignoring passages that appear to be disproving their position.

Okay, well, not “cherry-picking”… But 1 Peter 1:3-5 is certainly not an exhaustive list of passages speaking of our absolute security in Christ. Goodness, no…. :)

…one can't get cut off from something they had no part in to begin with.

Agreed.

It can only happen to a saved Gentile.

Disagreed. Paul has just said, in Romans 8:

“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus… No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

And if it does happen at some point, meaning this--otherwise thou also shalt be cut off---how does that remotely equal once saved always saved? Is one going to argue that the Gentiles meant in verse 21-22, that if they were to get cut off for whatever reason, that it simply means they were never saved to begin with?

Yes. John says of antichrists ~ unbelievers ~ in 1 John 2:19, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

Or that it means they don't actually get cut off though it plainly says so?

No one, even those born again of the Spirit, are excluded from the severity of God. But “cut off,” in Paul’s context in Romans 11, is not synonymous with being “unsaved,” or losing one’s salvation. We are still subject to God’s severity and according judgments. And Paul’s comments here are very closely associated with John’s in 1 John 2 above in that if Gentiles who seem to be grafted in are arrogant toward those branches broken off, then their faith may not be genuine, God-given, saving faith, in which case, if that remains the case, they will be cut off. Sobering, to say the least.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

Take a good look at this scripture you quoted in the post below:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (1 Peter 1:3-5).

The passage you quoted above tells us that God has caused us to be born again through the resurrection of whom?

Jesus, having been quickened by the Spirit, was not spiritually raised from the dead. He was bodily raised from the dead.

Christ's resurrection is His bodily resurrection. He was delivered up for our offenses and raised for our justification (Romans 4:25), so that through His sacrifice for our sins and resurrection from the dead WE have been born of the Spirit (i.e quickened, not spiritually "raised").

Our spiritual birth is not Christ's bodily resurrection, but through it and because of it - He was raised for our justification after He died for our sins (Romans 4:25), and because of Christ's bodily resurrection we will be bodily raised with Him also, because we are in Him through spiritual birth by His Spirit (i.e we have been spiritually quickened, NOT "raised").

According to what you asserted below, our being born again = our "spiritual" resurrection, but that's not what it's saying. You have taken our spiritual birth that came to us through HIS resurrection, and turned it into our "spiritual" resurrection.

But WE have not been bodily resurrected from death - Christ has - and we have been born again THROUGH His bodily resurrection from the dead, and because we are in Him who was bodily resurrected from death, we are synegeírō - raised with Him.

It's still not OUR egeírō, i.e WE have not been bodily OR "spiritually" (of which there is no such thing) raised from the dead, but it's HIS egeírō, HIS anástasis - but because we are IN HIM through His Spirit in us (who gave us birth) we have been synegeírō with Him (raised with Him).

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He has

(A) [syzōopoiéō] quickened together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(B) And has raised us up together [synegeírō], and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

So no, there is no about-face on my part. Just you (or your theology) inserting the words "spiritual resurrection" into the words "born again":​

Yeah, just puzzling. An affirmation, and the a total aboutface. Or… well, the other way around, really. Astonishing. But this is a raising from the dead, a resurrection. Not physical, or of the body, but absolutely a resurrection. This is the first resurrection John refers to in his vision in Revelation 20, and you and I are truly blessed to share in it.

There is a HUGE difference to our having being raised either spiritually or bodily on one hand (because the words relating to the resurrection always refer to the resurrection of the body), and, on the other hand, through His Spirit in us, our being raised with Him, as you own quote in your own post to @Davidpt clearly shows:​

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (1 Peter 1:3-5).

@PinSeeker Those who John saw as resurrected in the first resurrection had been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast. They had died, and risen again in the resurrection that will take place through Christ's resurrection when He returns. That's what the text is saying, before you insert "spiritually resurrected when we were born again" into the text.​

 

[rwb]

Well likewise I don't know what to say to you, rwb, because if you somehow believe you have risen from the dead bodily (because in the New Testament the resurrection is always only talking about the resurrection of the body),

How many times must I repeat none, but Christ, are bodily resurrected to never die again before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds? I have repeatedly said we are of the first resurrection because CHRIST IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION! You know this is true and then deny it is true. We are not bodily resurrected when we partake of Christ's resurrection, we are part of His resurrection life in the same way we have part in Him as the bread of life, and the water of life, it is not physical, but spiritual resurrection and through it the life we receive through Him is FOREVER! That's why when our body is dead, we ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers which John writes are souls alive in heaven even though they have physically died. It seems you haven't even understood that I agree with you. Resurrection is always of the body! Since our body will not be resurrected until Christ returns the second and only time, we must have part in Christ's physical resurrection! Our spirit is said to be quickened, awakened and raised, but when we physically die in Christ our spirit is NOT resurrected it is raised from the dead body a spiritual body in the Kingdom of God in heaven.

@rwb I have not remained dead in my sins because it is Christ who died for me and rose again from the dead, and it is His Spirit which gave me birth and by which I live.

What happens to His Spirit in us when we physically die?

 

[rwb]

The fact believers die, regardless, what should this be telling us then? That Jesus is a liar, that He oftentimes contradicts Himself? Or should it be telling us that since there is a first death and a 2nd death, where the latter there is no resurrecting from, thus are dead forever, therefore, Jesus is meaning believers will never die the 2nd death, thus will live forever instead. Why some of you don't think the 2nd death is relevant here, is beyond me? At least understanding it this way, one is not making a liar out of Christ since He never one single time ever said believers will never die the first death. Obviously then, He had the 2nd death in mind when He said believers will never die. IOW, the 2nd death means to be dead forever, and that the opposite is to be alive forever, thus never die. In this present age no one is alive forever. Everyone dies eventually. Though, it could be argued that the rapture is an exception to this.

No David believers do not die! Our body of flesh and bone ceases to have life but we as spiritual body of believers still have life through Christ's Spirit in us. We have Christ's promise that His Spirit shall be with us, giving us everlasting life after our body dies, and He will remain with us until we receive our resurrected immortal & incorruptible body of flesh and bone! If this is not truth, than Christ would not have said the life we receive when we believe is everlasting life.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

What you don't seem to understand is the definition of everlasting life. Aionios - translated everlasting is defined - perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began). If Christ meant that in Him we overcome the second death He would not have said the Son gives us everlasting life knowing full well every human is destined to physically die.

John 3:36 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 4:14 (KJV) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6:27 (KJV) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

 

[rwb]

I'm not certain what you are meaning by this?

All I know is, that everlasting life is not achievable in this present age. Meaning in the literal sense. No one can remotely live forever in an age that is not everlasting to begin with. By believing now on Christ, this is what seals everlasting life in the future, meaning in the next age. That assuming one doesn't fall away instead, thus not once saved always saved. Is one going to argue that everlasting life is not meaning in the literal sense involving doing that bodily? Can anyone bodily live forever in this present age? Of course not.

Yes, that does appear to be the problem David. You have no understanding of what Christ means when He tells us the life we receive through Him is everlasting. You seem to see only with physical vision that which is of this world materially! You seem to have no understanding of what it means to be born again through the Spirit of God that gives us entrance into the spiritual Kingdom of God.

No, no one can live obtain everlasting physical life in this world destined for destruction by fire. For that reason Christ sent us His Spirit that we would have everlasting SPIRITUAL life through Him, that shall never die even though our body of flesh & bones shall. Some of you put so much hope in this physical body and don't even understanding that in Christ we are NOT a physical body. Why do you think Christ tells us to walk by the spirit and not by sight? Our everlasting life we obtain through the resurrection life of Christ is NOT physical it is SPIRITUAL. And when we have been born again of His Spirit in us the life we have is EVERLASTING. Get your mind off the physical and try to learn of the spiritual Kingdom of God that we must know and enter to have everlasting life through Christ.

 

[rwb]

1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishabl

That's why our body of flesh will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. We will still have human bodies but changed from corruptible & mortal and from perishable to imperishable which we are in this life. If we shall become spirit beings why create a new heaven and new earth which God tells us the earth was created for humans. To be human means to have a body of flesh & bone with spirit (breath of life) to once again become a complete living soul.

 

[rwb]

The passage you quoted above tells us that God has caused us to be born again through the resurrection of whom?

According to what you asserted below, our being born again = our "spiritual" resurrection, but that's not what it's saying. You have taken our spiritual birth that came to us through HIS resurrection, and turned it into our "spiritual" resurrection.

You quote it but fail to understand what it says. To be born again is to have part in the resurrection of Christ. It is spiritual re-birth by His Spirit in us that makes us to partake of Christ's resurrection. To be born again of the Spirit is to be made alive with Christ SPIRITUALLY!

But WE have not been bodily resurrected from death - Christ has - and we have been born again THROUGH His bodily resurrection from the dead, and because we are in Him who was bodily resurrected from death, we are synegeírō - raised with Him.

Exactly! Because Christ has been resurrected from physical death to physical life and can never die again, we must be born again of His Spirit to have part in His resurrection life and overcome the second death. We don't overcome the second death by being physically resurrected when the last trumpet sounds. We overcome the second death through the first resurrection that is the resurrection of Christ.

Those who John saw as resurrected in the first resurrection had been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast. They had died, and risen again in the resurrection that will take place through Christ's resurrection when He returns. That's what the text is saying, before you insert "spiritually resurrected when we were born again" into the text.

You don't seem to know how to read tenses of Rev 20. Also John makes no mention of the martyred souls being resurrected bodily. He says only that they were faithful unto death because in life they "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Do you understand that there will not be a bodily resurrection before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds?

 

[grafted branch]

You don't seem to know how to read tenses of Rev 20. Also John makes no mention of the martyred souls being resurrected bodily. He says only that they were faithful unto death because in life they "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Do you understand that there will not be a bodily resurrection before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds?

Hey rwb, there was a bodily resurrection in Matthew 27:52-53 where many of the bodies of the saints arose.

The first resurrection was Christ and those in Matthew 27:52-53 came out after His resurrection. No matter how we look the first resurrection, it happened long ago. I guess those who see a bodily resurrection in Revelation 20:4-5 don’t count the resurrection in Matthew 27:52-53 as the first resurrection?

 

[ewq1938]

Hey rwb, there was a bodily resurrection in Matthew 27:52-53 where many of the bodies of the saints arose.

The first resurrection was Christ and those in Matthew 27:52-53 came out after His resurrection. No matter how we look the first resurrection, it happened long ago. I guess those who see a bodily resurrection in Revelation 20:4-5 don’t count the resurrection in Matthew 27:52-53 as the first resurrection?

No because the context of Rev 20 regarding the first resurrection is the first of two groups of the dead resurrecting. It has nothing at all to do with any other resurrections.

 

[Zao is life]

How many times must I repeat none, but Christ, are bodily resurrected to never die again before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds? I have repeatedly said we are of the first resurrection because CHRIST IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION!

You have repeatedly said that Christ's bodily resurrection is our 'spiritual' resurrection, so that you can insert a 'spiritual' resurrection into the text of Revelation 20:5.​

Jesus, having been quickened by the Spirit, was not spiritually raised from the dead. He was bodily raised from the dead.

Our spiritual birth is not Christ's bodily resurrection, but through it and because of it - He was raised for our justification after He died for our sins (Romans 4:25).

Resurrection is always of the body! Since our body will not be resurrected until Christ returns the second and only time, we must have part in Christ's physical resurrection! Our spirit is said to be quickened, awakened and raised

You have now acknowledged that the anastasis - the word used in Revelation 20:5-6 (as well as all the words referring to the resurrection) - always refers to the resurrection of the body from the dead. Yet you insert a 'spiritual' resurrection into the text.

Nowhere in the New Testament is our spirit said to be "raised". This is your own doctrine, and it's false. In scripture we are said to be quickened (made alive ) through birth by the Spirit through Christ's bodily resurrection from the dead:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth into a living (zao) hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened [zōopoiéō] by the Spirit" (1 Peter 3:18).

Note: WE have not been bodily resurrected from death - Christ has - and we have been born again (NOT "raised") - and this is through HIS bodily resurrection from the dead, and because we are in Him who was bodily resurrected from death and His Spirit is in us (through our believing in Him), we are synegeírō - raised WITH Him.

1 Peter 1:3 (quoted above) tells us that God has caused us to be born again through the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our being born again is not our "spiritual" resurrection - that's not what it's saying (though you have taken our spiritual birth that came to us through Christ's resurrection, and turned it into a doctrine, calling it our "spiritual" resurrection).

You said, ".. we have been "awakened, and raised.

"Raised" from what when you were born of the Spirit? From spiritual death?
​

If this is what you believe, then you will need to decide when it was that you died spiritually: Before you were born of the flesh into the world, or after you were born? But if you were born dead spiritually, then you never died spiritually, and have not been raised spiritually - instead we have been born of the Spirit.

Christ's resurrection is His bodily resurrection, and though through His Spirit in us we are raised with His bodily resurrection, It's still not OUR resurrection, i.e WE have not been either bodily OR "spiritually" (of which there is no such thing) raised from the dead (it's HIS resurrection), but because we are IN HIM through His Spirit in us (who gave us birth) we have been synegeírō with Him (raised with Him).

"You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive [zōopoiéō] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:9-11).

The word "raised" ALWAYS implies the words FROM THE DEAD and ALWAYS implies bodily resurrection. Your spirit has NOT BEEN RAISED - it was BORN of the Spirit of God.

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with [syzōopoiéō] Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:13).

Jesus was put to death in the flesh, but made alive [zoopoieo] in the Spirit, and rose again from the dead, bodily:

1 Peter 3:18-19
"For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive [zoopoieo] in the Spirit [pneûma]; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison."

We are born of the Spirit when the Spirit of God breathes life into us. It's not the same as "resurrection".

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5).

Again, the only reason why you hold onto your false doctrine of "spiritual resurrection" (our spirits being raised from the dead) is so that you can hold onto your false assertion that Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about a "spiritual" resurrection, even tough there is no such thing in scripture as a spiritual resurrection.

Yet you have now acknowledged that the anastasis - the word used in Revelation 20:5-6 - always refers to the resurrection of the body from the dead.

Your false doctrine regarding "spiritual" resurrection is the reason why you believe your false doctrine below:​

but when we physically die in Christ our spirit is NOT resurrected it is raised from the dead body a spiritual body in the Kingdom of God in heaven.

That's absolute nonsense. The only body that scripture says will be raised from the dead and have become a spiritual body, is our physical body. For those who are IN CHRIST when we die, i.e those who are in Christ through spiritual birth (quickening) by the Spirit, this is what happens when we die:

When we die our spirits will not need to be raised from anything because our spirits have been born of the Spirit of God and our spirits are already immortal IN CHRIST.

What happens to His Spirit in us when we physically die?

For those of us who were born of the Spirit of God, when we die physically we are not "raised" from anything but our spirits remain in Christ if we were in Christ when we died. We will be raised from the dead bodily on the day of the resurrection when Christ returns.​

 

[Zao is life]

To be born again of the Spirit is to be made alive with Christ SPIRITUALLY!​

Correct. And listen to what you just said. Open your ears to your own words. To be born of the Spirit is to be MADE ALIVE. (NOT "raised").​

You quote it but fail to understand what it says.

It's you who fails to understand what it says, because you conflate God giving life to us (quickening us through birth by the Spirit of Christ ) with "being raised".​

To be born again is to have part in the resurrection of Christ.

Christ's resurrection is His bodily resurrection. He was delivered up for our offenses and raised for our justification (Romans 4:25), so that through His sacrifice for our sins and resurrection from the dead WE have been born of the Spirit (i.e quickened, not spiritually "raised").

Because of Christ's bodily resurrection we will be body raised with Him also, because we are in Him through spiritual birth by His Spirit (i.e we have been spiritually quickened, NOT "raised").

Again, you entire argument betrays the fact that you conflate God giving life to us (quickening us) through birth by the Spirit of Christ, with our "being raised spiritually".​

It is spiritual re-birth by His Spirit in us

Being born again is the English way of translating the Greek word anothen, which means from the first.

We had not already been spiritually born so that we died spiritually and were "re-born" spiritually, which is what your wording above implies.

We are born once of the Spirit and then remain spiritually alive in Christ - and this is through (because of) His death and His bodily resurrection.​

that makes us to partake of Christ's resurrection.​

What you fail to understand is this:

Jesus, having been quickened by the Spirit, was not spiritually raised from the dead. He was bodily raised from the dead.

Our spiritual birth is not Christ's bodily resurrection, but through it and because of it - He was raised for our justification after He died for our sins (Romans 4:25).

That makes us to partake of Christ's bodily resurrection in the day we are bodily resurrected. It's still NOT our "spiritual resurrection". Being quickened / born of the Spirit is not being "spiritually raised" (which implies bodily resurrection from the dead). You have inserted that into your own doctrine, but it is not implied in the scriptures.​

You don't seem to know how to read tenses of Rev 20.

You've just made it 100% clear and obvious yet again by what you say below that it's you who doesn't know how to read the tenses of Rev 20, because the subject of verses 5-6 are people who John saw alive in their bodies (zao, which ALWAYS means alive in the body in scripture) after having been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast, and on top of that, you have repeatedly made it clear that the reason you need to wrongly read the tenses is because you need to eisegetically insert "spiritual" into the word "anastasis", which always refers to the bodily resurrection of the dead:​

Also John makes no mention of the martyred souls being resurrected bodily. He says only that they were faithful unto death because in life they "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

John saw them alive in their own bodies (zao) after having been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast. In the same context he calls it "the first resurrection".

It shows glaringly obvious eisegesis on your part to insert "spiritual resurrection" anywhere into Revelation 20:4-6, and glaringly obvious ignorance (ignoring) of the obvious meaning.

Then you base the following silly question on your silliness above:​

Do you understand that there will not be a bodily resurrection before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds?

The text of Revelation 20:5-6 is speaking about the above bodily resurrection. I hope you understand that.

 

[Zao is life]

No David believers do not die! Our body of flesh and bone ceases to have life

So we die.

David was not talking about the spirit that goes to be with Christ "dying", and you know it. You're twisting what he said. Stop that. It's so unnecessary, and does not prove your point when you base it on your twisting of what someone else said.

PS: You can't do that with scripture either.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, that does appear to be the problem David. You have no understanding of what Christ means when He tells us the life we receive through Him is everlasting.

It's actually you who has "no understanding of what Christ means when He tells us the life we receive through Him is everlasting", rwb.

It's actually you who "seems to see only with physical vision that which is of this world materially!"

It's actually you who "seems to have no understanding of what it means to be born again through the Spirit of God that gives us entrance into the spiritual Kingdom of God."

It's actually you who hurls so many assertions that imply falsely that the one you level such accusations against has a lower level of intelligence than you seem to think you have.

When you continue on that sort of trend it becomes a waste of time talking to you about anything. It seems when you have nothing of substance to offer someone's argument, then you resort to the above sort of nonsense.

It's childish and unnecessary and just clogs up your posts with rubbish. Please try and control yourself and refrain from falsely claiming that someone who disagrees with you doesn't understand this and that and the next thing, implying that they lack the level of intelligence you seem to think you have, and then listing all the things which in your unqualified opinion, they do not understand. That will be nice of you :)

 

[Timtofly]

I do not think that Jesus raised body is any indication of what our spiritual body will be. 1 John 3:2 seems to me to say just that. Jesus' raised body was not a spiritual body, but rather was the old body brought back to life. I think that was the point He was making with Thomas. In that, He was similar to Lazarus who was raised from the dead. He was not glorified in that physical body, but rather in His ascended body.

You are not getting the point of the verse. It does not say we cannot know. It says we will not appear like that until the Second Coming.

But that means those on earth can know what we will appear like, but as long as we are alive on earth, we will not appear like Him.

However it never says those who physically die will not appear like Him, until some future point.

Jesus was born with a glorified body, and was never in a temporal corruptible physical body. Jesus is the same yesterday, today , and forever. Jesus chose not to appear that way to those on earth, until the Second Coming. He did show John what that looked like on the mount of Transfiguration. That is why John could write:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Lazarus was raised into a permanent incorruptible physical body. He was taken to Paradise with the rest of those souls removed from Abraham's bosom.

You all seem lost in some misleading theology that puts eternal life off until some future point in time. John saw what Jesus was even before the Cross. So your theology causes contradiction of Scripture, not cohesion.

Humanity will always have the same physical body structure. Humanity was created as sons of God on the 6th day with a physical body. Adam was a son of God. Neither death nor life changes the point humanity will always have a physical body.

Yes, it is true that humans cannot ascend to heaven on their own ability. But since the Cross those who used to live on the earth, continue to live in Paradise in a physical body, just as we do on earth. They have a permanent incorruptible physical body. We have a temporal corruptible physical body handed down generation after generation from Adam and Eve.

It is not the physical body that makes us who we are. Only God can do what Jesus did with His physical body. Why do people think they will do what God does when they get back the physical body Adam had before he disobeyed God? Did Adam ever ascend to heaven before he disobeyed God? Humanity was created to always live not die. If all of those who died, kept living on earth after death, what is the point of even dying?

No one who has physically died, can return to earth, until the NHNE. If one accepts the Millennium as a future reign of Christ, not even that time allows all the former dead to return to the earth. In the Millennium humans will be removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. But those on earth at the start of the Millennium did not physically die. They were redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible physical body without tasting death, like those raptured. But they are not the church. They are still those who live outside of the New Jerusalem in the NHNE. The church lives in the New Jerusalem.