THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[Johann]

I did not say that the Messiah was not prophesied.
And I did not say that the New Testament did not indicate the pre-existent Christ as the Creator God.

Your words-

Since the Old Testament scriptures give no clear indication that Yeshua was present or active in the Old Testament I go with Yahweh is the creator God and what is said in the New Testament leaves part of the story out or there is more to the story.

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

John 10​

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King James Version​

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10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.

 

[JLB]

And you think this means the prepared way cannot be for YHWH’s servant?

Read what the verse says and stop making up your own slanted version of the truth!

• Prepare the way of the LORD;

If the scripture read prepare the way of the servant of the LORD, then you would have a point, but since it plainly says … Prepare the way of the LORD; you have no business twisting the scripture to change the meaning!



The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in the Prophets:
“Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.”
“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the LORD;
Make His paths straight.’ ”
Mark 1:1-2

 

[Ritajanice]

In the beginning was the word and ....AND THE WORD WAS GOD!

He was with God in the beginning..,who was with God in the beginning?

Notice HE..who is HE?

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◄ John 1 ►

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Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ The Beginning (Genesis 1:1–2; Hebrews 11:1–3) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomea it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Bible clearly states that the son is God’s “firstborn”…his “only begotten”…..and that he existed “before all things” and was used in their creation…..the Bible argues with that premise. (Col 1:15-17; John 1:2-3)

I'm sorry. I forgot to address John 1:2-3 in my previous post. Before I address the topic directly, I would like to briefly discuss another passage where the apostle Paul addresses God's word.

Hebrews 4:6-13

Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,​

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“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”​

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For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. ​

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For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.​

In this context, the word of God is a good news promise that those who obey his word will enter his rest. The promise of God is the Word of God. Word = Promise.

Since I believe that John is talking about a promise instead of a person, I will re-translate the third person pronouns as "it" rather than him. Listen to the following passage. Does John speak about the quiddity of God or the promise of God?

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the [promise] and the [promise] was with God, and the [promise] was God. It was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through it, and apart from it nothing came into being that has come into being. In it was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​

God's promise specifically referred to life and enlightenment, which He brought into the world through Jesus.

 

[JLB]

Your words-

Since the Old Testament scriptures give no clear indication that Yeshua was present or active in the Old Testament I go with Yahweh is the creator God and what is said in the New Testament leaves part of the story out or there is more to the story.

J.

Who appeared to Abraham?

The scriptures are clear about this.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18

No one saw God the Father in the Old Testament.


They saw the Son. YHWH the LORD God.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1


Jesus said…

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him;… John 8:56-59

 

[CadyandZoe]

In the beginning was the word and ....AND THE WORD WAS GOD!

He was with God in the beginning..,who was with God in the beginning?

Notice HE..who is HE?

​

◄ John 1 ►

​

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ The Beginning (Genesis 1:1–2; Hebrews 11:1–3) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomea it.

Will you refer to my post #3485

 

[Grailhunter]

Your words-

Since the Old Testament scriptures give no clear indication that Yeshua was present or active in the Old Testament I go with Yahweh is the creator God and what is said in the New Testament leaves part of the story out or there is more to the story.

J.

Exactly my words….but I said nothing of prophecy.

 

[JLB]

In the beginning was the word and ....AND THE WORD WAS GOD!

He was with God in the beginning..,who was with God in the beginning?

Notice HE..who is HE?

​

◄ John 1 ►

​

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ The Beginning (Genesis 1:1–2; Hebrews 11:1–3) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomea it.

HE = Jesus; YHWH the LORD God

 

[CadyandZoe]

Is the relevance of conjunctions and tense lost on most reading John 1:1?

From the KJV:

John 1:1-2
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

In context, "with" in the above passage indicates two distinct parties (God and the Word).
The word "was" is PAST TENSE. How could anything about our changeless God (Mal. 3:6) cease to exist?

In Greek, the term "with" doesn't always indicate location. Sometimes it does, but it can also indicate origin or source. Is John suggesting that there was a second person of a Trinity who hung out with the first person of the Trinity and had coffee? Or is John saying that the entire story began with a promise, and the origin and source of the promise is God?

The past tense usage of the term "was" in this instance, points back to the original moment when God made the promise (his word) and the promise was "God" meaning that since God is the source of all life and enlightenment then the fulfillment of the promise is as sure as God himself.

The "Word" can reference communication in multiple different ways. It can refer to a telepathic message/unspoken Word (vision), or to the verbal Word (as spoken by God’s Prophets), or the written Word (e.g. the Bible) or the flesh-and-blood example of the Word (Christ, The Word OF God MADE flesh.

Excellent point, which formed the beginning of my own journey into whether the Bible teaches about a Trinity or not.

 

[CadyandZoe]

HE = Jesus; YHWH the LORD God

Assuming for the moment what Trinitarianism is true, when did the Word become Jesus? Was it Jesus that pre-existed or was it "Word"? Was it Jesus that created the world or was it Word? Is Jesus the exact representation of God's nature or was it Word? Was Jesus tempted in the wilderness or was it Word?

 

[Johann]

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the [promise] and the [promise] was with God, and the [promise] was God. It was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through it, and apart from it nothing came into being that has come into being. In it was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Not so-

was the Word. Note.—No title could be conceived more clearly expressive not only of the pre-existence of Christ, but of his essential Divinity as co-eternal with God than this—The Word, ο λογος;—for as the word of a person co-exists with himself, and is that in which the mind or thought of man is embodied, in order to be declared or made known, and by which the spirit in man is revealed, so did Christ in his eternal and pre-existent nature as "The Word" co-exist with God, who in him also is embodied for manifestation, declared and revealed, as below, Jhn_1:18—’the same, the self, the same very self as thought, or any act of the mind.’

Moreover that "The Word" or "Logos" denotes a person, and not merely an attribute—as Wisdom or Reason—is evident from this passage, as well as all the places where mentioned in the references here given. For evidence that by "The Voice" or "Word of Jehovah," the Jews at and before the coming of Christ had been accustomed to designate the Messiah, see Townsend’s Dissertation on the Logos, N.T. Chronology, pp. 7 and seq. (William De Burgh, New Marginal Readings and References to the Gospels, p. 222). FS101, +Deu_32:42, Jhn_1:14, Isa_49:1-2, Heb_4:12-13; Heb_6:1, 1Pe_1:25, 1Jn_1:1-2; 1Jn_5:7, *Rev_19:13.

and the Word. FS101, +Deu_32:42, By Hyperbaton, the subject, "the Word," being defined by the article which is prefixed to it, can be placed at the end of two of the clauses, and in each case we are to put the stress on "the Word." FS77, +Exo_3:19, Bengel notes that "when the predicate precedes the subject, there is an epitasis (an emphatic enlargement of the subject)" as also in Jhn_4:24 (New Testament Word Studies, vol. 1, p. 543). *Jhn_10:30-33; +**Jhn_20:28, +*Psa_45:6, +*Isa_7:14; +*Isa_9:6; Isa_40:9-11, Mat_1:23, *Rom_9:5, **Php_2:6 note. *1Ti_3:16, **Tit_2:13, *Heb_1:8-13, **2Pe_1:1 g. 1Jn_5:7; 1Jn_5:20.

The Word (ho logos). Logos is from legō, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. Logos is common for reason as well as speech. Heraclitus used it for the principle which controls the universe. The Stoics employed it for the soul of the world (anima mundi) and Marcus Aurelius used spermatikos logos for the generative principle in nature.

The Hebrew memra was used in the Targums for the manifestation of God like the Angel of Jehovah and the Wisdom of God in Pro_8:23. Dr. J. Rendel Harris thinks that there was a lost wisdom book that combined phrases in Proverbs and in the Wisdom of Solomon which John used for his Prologue (The Origin of the Prologue to St. John, p. 43) which he has undertaken to reproduce. At any rate John’s standpoint is that of the Old Testament and not that of the Stoics nor even of Philo who uses the term Logos, but not John’s conception of personal pre-existence.

The term Logos is applied to Christ only in Jhn_1:1, Jhn_1:14; Rev_19:13; 1Jn_1:1 “concerning the Word of life” (an incidental argument for identity of authorship). There is a possible personification of “the Word of God” in Heb_4:12. But the personal pre-existence of Christ is taught by Paul (2Co_8:9; Php_2:6.; Col_1:17) and in Heb_1:2. and in Jhn_17:5. This term suits John’s purpose better than sophia (wisdom) and is his answer to the Gnostics who either denied the actual humanity of Christ (Docetic Gnostics) or who separated the aeon Christ from the man Jesus (Cerinthian Gnostics). The pre-existent Logos “became flesh” (sarx egeneto, Jhn_1:14) and by this phrase John answered both heresies at once.


Joh 1:1 In the beginning the Word existed; and the Word was face to face with God; yea, the Word was God Himself.
Joh 1:2 He is the One who was face to face with God in the beginning.
Joh 1:3 It was through Him that everything came into existence, and apart from Him not a single thing came into existence.
Joh 1:4 It was by Him that life began to exist, and that life was the light of mankind.

J.

 

[RedFan]

Assuming for the moment what Trinitarianism is true, when did the Word become Jesus? Was it Jesus that pre-existed or was it "Word"? Was it Jesus that created the world or was it Word? Is Jesus the exact representation of God's nature or was it Word? Was Jesus tempted in the wilderness or was it Word?

If you want to be literal, "Jesus" is the name for the human born of Mary at the moment that "the Word became flesh." So "Jesus" had no pre-existence. The Word did. The Word created the world. The Word is the exact representation of God's nature (until "emptying himself" of divine attributes, as Paul describes it in Phillippians 2).

 

[keithr]

James 2:19 -You - @CadyandZoe - believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

Note that most modern translations (including literal translations such as the YLT) translate James 2:19 as saying "You believe that God is one", not as "You believe that there is one God".

Note also Galatians 3:16-20 (WEB):

(16) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his offspring. He doesn’t say, “To descendants”, as of many, but as of one, “To your offspring”, which is Christ.​

(17) Now I say this: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God in Christ, the law, which came four hundred thirty years after, does not annul, so as to make the promise of no effect.​

(18) For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by promise.​

(19) Then why is there the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise has been made. It was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator.​

(20) Now a mediator is not between one, but God is one.​

God made a promise to Christ, therefore Christ Jesus cannot be God. Jesus is the mediator between the two parties. God is one party, mankind is the other. Therefore Jesus cannot be God. Christians become part of Christ, part of the mediator; and Christians are not God.

1 Timothy 2:5 (WEB):

(5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

Galatians 3:27-29 (WEB):

(27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.​

(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

(29) If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring and heirs according to promise.​

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not so-

was the Word. Note.—No title could be conceived more clearly expressive not only of the pre-existence of Christ, but of his essential Divinity as co-eternal with God than this—The Word, ο λογος;—for as the word of a person co-exists with himself . . .

Your explanation contains an inadvertent contradiction and actually makes my point. You defeat your argument when you rightly point out that the "word of a person co-exists with himself . . . " which you rightly clarify as a product of the mind. Since the word of God is the product of God's mind, then it is NOT an appellation for a person.

Given your definition, John is saying "In the Beginning was a product of God's mind . . . and I would agree with you. Even so, the specific product of God's mind John has in view is a promise God made, specifically, the promise of life and enlightenment and it was a light that couldn't be extinguished.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you want to be literal, "Jesus" is the name for the human born of Mary at the moment that "the Word became flesh." So "Jesus" had no pre-existence. The Word did. The Word created the world. The Word is the exact representation of God's nature (until "emptying himself" of divine attributes, as Paul describes it in Phillippians 2).

So then, if Jesus had no pre-existence, and Jesus is the Word, then why do Trinitarians understand "word" as an appellation rather than the product of the mind as is typical of the term "logos"? Why not treat the term "logos" as is typically understood in the rest of the New Testament?

 

[David in NJ]

Note that most modern translations (including literal translations such as the YLT) translate James 2:19 as saying "You believe that God is one.", not as "You believe that there is one God".

Note also Galatians 3:16-20 (WEB):

(16) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his offspring. He doesn’t say, “To descendants”, as of many, but as of one, “To your offspring”, which is Christ.​

(17) Now I say this: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God in Christ, the law, which came four hundred thirty years after, does not annul, so as to make the promise of no effect.​

(18) For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by promise.​

(19) Then why is there the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise has been made. It was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator.​

(20) Now a mediator is not between one, but God is one.​

God made a promise to Christ, therefore Christ Jesus cannot be God. Jesus is the mediator between the two parties. God is one party, mankind is the other. Therefore Jesus cannot be God. Christians become part of Christ, part of the mediator; and Christians are not God.

1 Timothy 2:5 (WEB):

(5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

Galatians 3:27-29 (WEB):

(27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.​

(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

(29) If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring and heirs according to promise.​

Note that most modern translations (including literal translations such as the YLT) translate James 2:19 as saying "You believe that God is one.",

SEE, even the demons know the Triune God is Echad

 

[Johann]

(16) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his offspring. He doesn’t say, “To descendants”, as of many, but as of one, “To your offspring”, which is Christ.(17) Now I say this: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God in Christ, the law, which came four hundred thirty years after, does not annul, so as to make the promise of no effect.(18) For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by promise.(19) Then why is there the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise has been made. It was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator.(20) Now a mediator is not between one, but God is one.
God made a promise to Christ, therefore Christ Jesus cannot be God. Jesus is the mediator between the two parties. God is one party, mankind is the other. Therefore Jesus cannot be God. Christians become part of Christ, part of the mediator; and Christians are not God.

Disagree-

The Promise Made to Abraham and His "Offspring" (Christ):
In Galatians 3:16, Paul emphasizes that the promise to Abraham was made to his "offspring," not "descendants" (plural), but "offspring" (singular), which he identifies as Christ. This is not a denial of Christ’s deity, but rather a theological point about the specific fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham through Jesus Christ, the Messiah. The singular "offspring" refers to Christ as the one ultimate heir of the promise.

Christ’s fulfillment of the promise does not exclude His divinity. In fact, Paul and other New Testament writers affirm that Christ is fully God and fully man. The distinction here is about the role of Christ as the one who fulfills the promise to Abraham and brings God's promises to fruition, not a denial of His divine nature.

2. Christ as Mediator Between God and Humanity:
In Galatians 3:19-20, Paul speaks of the Law being "added because of transgressions" until the "offspring" (Christ) should come. He also mentions that the Law was "ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator." The mediator in this context is Christ, but this does not imply that Christ is not divine.

The role of a mediator is to represent two parties in a relationship, in this case, God and humanity. The fact that Christ is the mediator between God and man (as Paul also writes in 1 Timothy 2:5), does not negate His divinity but highlights His unique position as both God and man. The mediator must be able to represent both sides. As the Son of God, Christ is able to fully represent God, and as fully human, He can represent humanity.

Christ’s mediatorship does not imply inferiority to God. Instead, it demonstrates His role in reconciling humanity to God. This mediation is central to Christian understanding of salvation, as it is through Christ's sacrificial work that the relationship between humanity and God is restored. If Christ were not God, He would not be able to fully represent God to humanity, nor could He effectively mediate between the two parties.

3. The Unity of God in Christ’s Mediatorship:
Galatians 3:20 states that "a mediator is not between one, but God is one." This affirms the oneness of God, which is a central tenet of Christian theology. However, it is important to recognize that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity holds that God is one in essence but exists in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus as mediator does not undermine the unity of God but affirms it. The Father and the Son are one in essence (see John 10:30), and the mediation of the Son between God and man is an act of God’s plan of redemption. The fact that Jesus is the mediator does not mean He is not fully divine. The Trinity allows for the Son to be fully God while still taking on the role of mediator.

4. Christ’s Divinity and Role in Redemption:
The central claim of Christianity is that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. His mediatorship does not imply that He is less than God but rather that He plays a unique role in God’s plan of salvation. John 1:1 makes clear that Jesus is the Word, and the Word is God. The fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus (see Colossians 2:9). He is the divine Son of God who, as part of the Triune Godhead, became human to reconcile humanity to the Father through His death and resurrection.

Hebrews 1:8 explicitly calls Jesus "God" in reference to the eternal nature of His reign. If Jesus were not God, He would not be capable of accomplishing the salvation that Scripture promises.

Heb 1:8 And Hashem says to HaBen, KIS'AHCHA ELOHIM OLAM VAED SHEVET MISHOR SHEVET MALKHUTECHA ("Your throne, O G-d, will endure for ever and ever, and the scepter of justice is the scepter of your kingdom" --TEHILLIM 45:7).

Conclusion:
Christ's role as mediator does not undermine His divinity. Instead, it affirms His unique position as both fully God and fully man, reconciling humanity to God. The argument that Jesus cannot be God because He is the mediator overlooks the essential truth of the Trinity and the incarnation—that Jesus, while distinct in His person as the Son, is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit in essence.
Christ’s mediation is central to His mission and does not imply inferiority to God. It emphasizes His role in fulfilling God's promises, including the promise to Abraham, and in accomplishing redemption for humanity.

Massive redefinition's and reinterpretations going on here.

J.

 

[RedFan]

So then, if Jesus had no pre-existence, and Jesus is the Word, then why do Trinitarians understand "word" as an appellation rather than the product of the mind as is typical of the term "logos"? Why not treat the term "logos" as is typically understood in the rest of the New Testament?

The human being had no pre-existence before birth, but the Word existed before becoming human. I am a Trinitarian, and speaking only for myself I do NOT understand Word as an appellation of Jesus. It's the other way around with me.

 

[David in NJ]

Disagree-

The Promise Made to Abraham and His "Offspring" (Christ):
In Galatians 3:16, Paul emphasizes that the promise to Abraham was made to his "offspring," not "descendants" (plural), but "offspring" (singular), which he identifies as Christ. This is not a denial of Christ’s deity, but rather a theological point about the specific fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham through Jesus Christ, the Messiah. The singular "offspring" refers to Christ as the one ultimate heir of the promise.

Christ’s fulfillment of the promise does not exclude His divinity. In fact, Paul and other New Testament writers affirm that Christ is fully God and fully man. The distinction here is about the role of Christ as the one who fulfills the promise to Abraham and brings God's promises to fruition, not a denial of His divine nature.

2. Christ as Mediator Between God and Humanity:
In Galatians 3:19-20, Paul speaks of the Law being "added because of transgressions" until the "offspring" (Christ) should come. He also mentions that the Law was "ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator." The mediator in this context is Christ, but this does not imply that Christ is not divine.

The role of a mediator is to represent two parties in a relationship, in this case, God and humanity. The fact that Christ is the mediator between God and man (as Paul also writes in 1 Timothy 2:5), does not negate His divinity but highlights His unique position as both God and man. The mediator must be able to represent both sides. As the Son of God, Christ is able to fully represent God, and as fully human, He can represent humanity.

Christ’s mediatorship does not imply inferiority to God. Instead, it demonstrates His role in reconciling humanity to God. This mediation is central to Christian understanding of salvation, as it is through Christ's sacrificial work that the relationship between humanity and God is restored. If Christ were not God, He would not be able to fully represent God to humanity, nor could He effectively mediate between the two parties.

3. The Unity of God in Christ’s Mediatorship:
Galatians 3:20 states that "a mediator is not between one, but God is one." This affirms the oneness of God, which is a central tenet of Christian theology. However, it is important to recognize that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity holds that God is one in essence but exists in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus as mediator does not undermine the unity of God but affirms it. The Father and the Son are one in essence (see John 10:30), and the mediation of the Son between God and man is an act of God’s plan of redemption. The fact that Jesus is the mediator does not mean He is not fully divine. The Trinity allows for the Son to be fully God while still taking on the role of mediator.

4. Christ’s Divinity and Role in Redemption:
The central claim of Christianity is that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. His mediatorship does not imply that He is less than God but rather that He plays a unique role in God’s plan of salvation. John 1:1 makes clear that Jesus is the Word, and the Word is God. The fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus (see Colossians 2:9). He is the divine Son of God who, as part of the Triune Godhead, became human to reconcile humanity to the Father through His death and resurrection.

Hebrews 1:8 explicitly calls Jesus "God" in reference to the eternal nature of His reign. If Jesus were not God, He would not be capable of accomplishing the salvation that Scripture promises.

Heb 1:8 And Hashem says to HaBen, KIS'AHCHA ELOHIM OLAM VAED SHEVET MISHOR SHEVET MALKHUTECHA ("Your throne, O G-d, will endure for ever and ever, and the scepter of justice is the scepter of your kingdom" --TEHILLIM 45:7).

Conclusion:
Christ's role as mediator does not undermine His divinity. Instead, it affirms His unique position as both fully God and fully man, reconciling humanity to God. The argument that Jesus cannot be God because He is the mediator overlooks the essential truth of the Trinity and the incarnation—that Jesus, while distinct in His person as the Son, is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit in essence.
Christ’s mediation is central to His mission and does not imply inferiority to God. It emphasizes His role in fulfilling God's promises, including the promise to Abraham, and in accomplishing redemption for humanity.

Massive redefinition's and reinterpretations going on here.

J.

Great Morning Read with my coffee - ty