THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[Johann]

Education is about human correctness and understanding. Good for teaching and knowing when people are spreading BS but it does not impress Christ just that He recognizes devotion.

Believers in Christ spreading B**S?

J.

 

[Wrangler]

The easiest way to destroy the absurdity of the trinity is from the POV of the Holy Spirit and his lack of equality.

@Ritajanice , Delving further into easiest way to destroy the absurdity of the trinity is from the POV of the Holy Spirit and his lack of equality comes from my study of God’s name and the general importance of names in the Bible.

Things are done in someone’s name and a man is identified by the name of his father. While God has many titles, he has one name and it is found at Ex3:15, YHWH. This gives context to the Lord’s Prayer, hallowed by thy name; YHWH. Trinitarians ignore this fact, preferring to attempt to leverage the more ambiguous, Ex3:14.

This lead to the realization of how important names are in the Bible. Abrahm was renamed Abraham; Jacob was renamed Israel; and Simon was renamed Peter. Even Jesus will get a new name. See Rev 3:12.

Then we get to the Holy Spirit, who has no name. Not a god, not even a person without a name.

The Lord God, YHWH relates to us as our father. His Anointed, Jesus, relates to him as son. Not only does the Holy Spirit have no authority or name, there is no relationship to us that is identified in Scripture.

And the reason why is simple. It is not a person but an attribute of the Creator. (I started a thread several years back with Houtos in the title, which means THAT not he/him, referring to another attribute, God’s word).

 

[Ritajanice]

The wonderful thing is you do not have to be educated to be saved

Amen!

If I had ,had to pass a test on how to become Born Again I would have failed Brother.

At school I was as thick as a plank, I'm a good cook though LOL.

 

[Triumph1300]

Believers in Christ spreading B**S?

Not sure if they are believers.
But yes, lots of BS. (If that's what you want to call it)
And surely lots of it.

 

[Johann]

Not sure if they are believers.
But yes, lots of BS. (If that's what you want to call it)
And surely lots of it.

Not my words @Triumph1300 so what are you?

J.

 

[RLT63]

@Ritajanice , Delving further into easiest way to destroy the absurdity of the trinity is from the POV of the Holy Spirit and his lack of equality comes from my study of God’s name and the general importance of names in the Bible.

Things are done in someone’s name and a man is identified by the name of his father. While God has many titles, he has one name and it is found at Ex3:15, YHWH. This gives context to the Lord’s Prayer, hallowed by thy name; YHWH. Trinitarians ignore this fact, preferring to attempt to leverage the more ambiguous, Ex3:14.

This lead to the realization of how important names are in the Bible. Abrahm was renamed Abraham; Jacob was renamed Israel; and Simon was renamed Peter. Even Jesus will get a new name. See Rev 3:12.

Then we get to the Holy Spirit, who has no name. Not a god, not even a person without a name.

The Lord God, YHWH relates to us as our father. His Anointed, Jesus, relates to him as son. Not only does the Holy Spirit have no authority or name, there is no relationship to us that is identified in Scripture.

And the reason why is simple. It is not a person but an attribute of the Creator. (I started a thread several years back with Houtos in the title, which means THAT not he/him, referring to another attribute, God’s word).

If God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life,
why did he turn around and make it so hard to find the truth that only the few who believe like you do will be saved?

 

[Grailhunter]

Amen!

If I had ,had to pass a test on how to become Born Again I would have failed Brother.

At school I was as thick as a plank, I'm a good cook though LOL.

If you are a good cook, you are my favorite.

 

[Grailhunter]

Believers in Christ spreading B**S?

J.

Well it depends on what you believe and what you do....either can land you in hell.

 

[face2face]

Chock full of Scripture and I know you don't read links.

HYPOSTATIC UNION
Dr. Grant C. Richison



Hypostatic Union

(Union of the Deity and Humanity of Christ)

The hypostatic union (union of Christ’s deity and humanity) is when the Son set aside the voluntary USE of His incommunicable attributes. He never stopped existing as God, but He did not use His incommunicable attributes to function within true humanity. Eternality can never cease to exist. A key passage in this regard is Philippians 2:6 See my devotionals on this passage: Philippians 2:6 | Bible Exposition Commentary

Stasis relates to person or substance, the essential essence of a person. The Son has one substance or person whether in His deity or humanity. He is of one substance with the Father. The words anhypostasis and enhypostasis relate to His human nature. Anhypostasis has an alpha privative negating the hypostasis; that is, the Son did not obtain a pre-existing human being when He took on human nature. He did not enter an already existing embryo. In that case, He would possess another person than His own.

Nevertheless, Jesus’ human nature was true humanity; He was a real person. The word enhypostasis (en=in and substance). He truly existed in a human substance. The eternal Son in His personhood stepped foot in true finite humanity (which could not stand alone as His divine nature could). He added true human nature to His divine nature, not another human person. He has two natures but one person, the same person who existed from all eternity as the Son. He is one united person, not two. The Trinity has one indivisible divine nature with three persons.

We understand the person of Christ best in His pre-incarnate state. His incarnation, however, did not diminish His deity in any way. In His humanity, Jesus’ personhood developed like any other human being (Lu 2:52; Mt 26:38), which cannot be attributed to His divine nature. This is related to His humanity rather than divine consciousness. He also experienced the limitations of ordinary human beings. He had a human spirit (Jn 13:21). Thus, He had a complete human body, soul and spirit (contrary to Bultmann).

Regarding the union of the divine and human natures Christ sometimes operated in the sphere of His humanity and other times within the sphere of His deity, in every case He was one person, not two. The Bible never considered Him a dual personality. However, both of His natures maintain their complete identity. The two natures maintain their unity without transfer of attributes. There is no third substance. Christ is theanthropic in one person.

We sort the function of His two natures by distinguishing what is different in each:

Some attributes are attributed to His whole person such as Redeemer.
Some attributes are true only of His deity, but the whole person is the subject (Jn 8:58). The whole person is the subject, but the attribute of deity applies only to His divine nature. Therefore, it is possible to say of the incarnate Christ that His person is eternal although His humanity was added in time.
Some attributes are true only of His humanity, but the whole person is the subject (Jn 19:28). “I thirst” can be attributed only to His humanity but the whole person is involved.
The person may be described according to the divine nature but the predicate of the human nature (Rev 1:12-18). Christ in glory is described “as dead” (Rev 1:18).
The person may be described according to His human nature but the predicate of His divine nature (Jn 6:62). “Son of Man” describes His human nature, but the ascension up to where He was before could only refer to His divine nature.
The person may be described according to the divine nature, but the predicate of both natures (Jn 5:25-27). Christ here is described as the Son of God, but the predicate of speaking is attributed to both natures. Human nature is specifically in view in future judgment.
The person may be described according to the human nature, but the predicate of both natures (Jn 5:27; Mt 27:46). In the latter passage Christ is speaking from His human nature but “Me” refers to both natures (the whole person).
INCARNATION OF TRUE HUMANITY

The true humanity of Christ is a crucial doctrine of Scripture. The death of Christ revolves around our Lord’s humanity. His deity could not die for deity is eternal and can never cease to exist. Other doctrines such as His Messiahship, inheriting the throne of David and offices of king and priest rest on Christ’s true humanity.

PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS

Clear evidence of His true humanity is that He possessed a human body of flesh and blood. His body was like other men except for a virgin birth and not inheriting a sin capacity. His life as a human being manifested normal human development and growth (Lu 2:52). His advance in “wisdom and knowledge” pertains to His Human rather than divine consciousness. He also suffered pain, thirst, hunger, fatigue, rest, death and resurrection. People could touch Him before and after the incarnation. Jesus carried human titles such as “the Son of Man,” “the man Christ Jesus,” “Jesus,” “Son of David” and “man of sorrows.”

HUMAN RATIONAL SOUL AND SPIRIT

Jesus said that His “soul” was “sorrowful even unto death” (Mt 26:38). Eternity cannot die but a human soul can. He was also “troubled in spirit” (Jn 13:21). Thus, Jesus not only possessed material aspects of humanity but also immaterial. He was more than a human body; He had a complete body, soul and spirit.

UNION OF DIVINE AND HUMAN NATURES

Although Christ operated sometimes in His deity and other times in His humanity (see 7 points above), in all cases what He was and did came from one person. He was not a dual personality. Normal pronouns are used of Him. The hypostatic union of His divine and human natures can be seen in John 1:1-14; Philippians 2:6-11; Romans 1:2-5; 9:5; 1 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 2:14; 1 John 1:1-3. The Son of God took upon a complete human nature. This human nature will exist forever (Mt 26:64). His humanity is foundational to His work as a mediator (1 Ti 2:5). Human personality once in existence is never terminated in the Bible.

RELATION OF CHRIST’S TWO NATURES

“Nature” indicates either divine or human elements within the person of Christ. The Greek word for “nature” (physis)is found in several Scriptures (Ro 2:14; Ga 2:15; 4:8; Eph 2:3; 2 Pe 1:4). There has been a debate in church history about the definition of “nature” making it difficult to come to apodictic conclusions based simply on the word itself. “Substance” may be a better word (ousia in Greek). We can generally conclude that “nature” pertains to the essence or inner properties that manifest themselves. Christ’s nature then is the sum of all His attributes and their relationship to each other. Attributes must be compatible to the nature they represent. Or, they cannot be transferred to another nature or substance. Nature regarding Christ’s humanity is all that belongs to His humanity. Nature, as applied to His deity, is all that belongs to His deity. Both divine and human natures have their respective attributes. Both Christ’s divine and human attributes are united without loss of any essential attributes. Both natures maintain their separate identity, that is, there is no mixture or loss of their separate identity. There was no loss or transfer of any property of one substance to another. The union is one of person and of one person. Thus, the two substances maintain their separate identities though joined in personal union. Christ is a theanthropic single person; His natures are not theanthropic since infinity cannot be transferred to the finite. God cannot be transferred to man. To negate Christ’s deity of a single attribute would rob Him of that deity. To disavow Him of genuine human attributes would negate His humanity.

The union of the divinity and humanity of Christ is not deity possessing humanity; this denies His true humanity. Neither is it humanity simply indwelt by deity; Christ did not differ from other men in degree of divine influence. The union of His two natures was personal and constitutional. The Son of God did not unite Himself with a human person but human nature. While the two natures are never attributed to each other they are attributed to His person. Some attributes are true of His whole person; some only of His deity; some only of His humanity. In a more complex way, the person may be described of His divine nature, but the predicate is of His human nature (Re 1: 12-18), and the person may be described of His human nature, but the predicate is of His divine nature (Jn 6:62). Yet again, the person may be described by the divine nature, but the predicate is of both natures (Jn 5:25-27). Further, the person may be described according to human nature, but the predicate is of both natures (Mt 27:46; Jn 5:27).

THE SELF CONSCIOUSNESS OF CHRIST REGARDING HIS TWO NATURES

Christ was always aware of His divine self-consciousness. His human consciousness developed a self-consciousness. Christ during His humanity on earth spoke from both consciousnesses.

Regarding the issue of Christ’s “will,” He can only have one will. “Will” in this case must be distinguished from desire. It was not the Lord’s desire to die on the cross but His will demanded that He do it anyway.


J.

But not one verse which explain Hypostasis...not 1

 

[face2face]

let's fact check this with Scripture--


Hupostasis is used 19 times in the Septuagint (LXX) and 5 times in the NT…

2Cor 9:4 (3 But I have sent the brethren, that our boasting about you may not be made empty in this case, that, as I was saying, you may be prepared) 4 lest if any Macedonians come with me and find you unprepared, we (not to speak of you) should be put to shame by this confidence.

2Cor 11:17 That which I am speaking, I am not speaking as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting.

Hebrews 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature (hupostasis, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end;

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Considering these meanings of hupostasis in Hebrews 11:1 one could paraphrase this verse as follows…

Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for.

Faith is the foundation, the quality of confidence which leads one to stand under, endure, or undertake anything.

Faith involves the most solid possible conviction, the God-given present assurance of a future reality.

Thus hupostasis has as it's etymological equivalent in English the word "substance" which describes that which stands under a thing or that which makes it what it is.

In Hebrews 1:3 the Son is such a revelation of the Father that when we see Jesus, we see what God's real being is.

Hebrews 1:3 (note) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (Comment: Christ is the very representation of the divine essence. The author is conveying the truth that whatever the divine essence is, Jesus is said to be its perfect expression and in so doing affirms the deity of Jesus Christ. The etymological equivalent of hupostasis in English is "substance" or that which stands under a thing and which makes it what it is. The Son is such a revelation of the Father that when we see Jesus, we see what God's real being is.)

Occurrences in the Septuagint (19 times)
Deuteronomy 1:12

"How can I alone bear your troubles, your burdens, and your strife?" (ὑποστάσεις in Greek refers to "burdens" or "causes of contention.")
Judges 6:4

"...and destroyed the increase of the earth..." (ὑπόστασιν refers to "substance" or "yield.")
Job 22:20

"...whereas our substance is not cut down..." (ὑπόστασις here means "substance" or "wealth.")
Psalm 38:5 (39:5 LXX)

"Indeed, every man at his best state is but vapor." (ὑπόστασις refers to a "state" or "existence.")
Psalm 68:2 (69:2 LXX)

"I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing." (ὑπόστασις is "standing" or "firm footing.")
Psalm 88:47 (89:47 LXX)

"Remember how short my time is..." (ὑπόστασις refers to "foundation" or "existence.")
Psalm 138:15 (139:15 LXX)

"My substance was not hidden from You when I was made in secret..." (ὑπόστασις refers to "substance" or "frame.")
Isaiah 26:16

"Lord, in trouble they have visited You..." (ὑπόστασις refers to "distress.")
Isaiah 57:16

"For I will not contend forever..." (ὑπόστασις means "existence" or "soul.")
Lamentations 3:18

"And I said, 'My strength and my hope have perished from the Lord.'" (ὑπόστασις refers to "hope" or "confidence.")
Ezekiel 19:5

"She saw that her hope was lost..." (ὑπόστασις is "hope.")
Ezekiel 26:20

"...and you shall have no habitation." (ὑπόστασις means "habitation" or "foundation.")
Daniel 11:20

"...a tax collector will arise..." (ὑπόστασις means "standing" or "office.")
Wisdom of Solomon 16:21

"For your sustenance manifested your sweetness toward your children..." (ὑπόστασις is "sustenance.")
Wisdom of Solomon 17:12

"For fear is nothing else but the betrayal of the supports of reason." (ὑπόστασις means "supports.")
Sirach 2:23 (Ecclesiasticus)

"...and the prosperity of a man in his house." (ὑπόστασις is "prosperity.")
Sirach 16:23 (Ecclesiasticus)

"...the thoughts of an understanding heart will not be hidden." (ὑπόστασις is "foundation.")
Sirach 42:10 (Ecclesiasticus)

"In her virginity, lest she should be defiled and gotten with child in her father’s house..." (ὑπόστασις means "confidence" or "foundation.")
1 Maccabees 6:49

"...and the city had no provisions to withstand a siege." (ὑπόστασις refers to "provisions.")
Occurrences in the New Testament (5 times)
2 Corinthians 9:4

"...lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf." (ὑπόστασις is "basis" or "foundation.")
2 Corinthians 11:17

"What I speak, I speak not according to the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting." (ὑπόστασις is "confidence.")
Hebrews 1:3

"...the express image of His person..." (ὑπόστασις is "substance" or "essence.")
Hebrews 3:14

"...if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." (ὑπόστασις is "confidence.")
Hebrews 11:1

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (ὑπόστασις is "substance" or "assurance.")
These occurrences demonstrate the diverse semantic range of ὑπόστασις, from "substance" or "essence" to "confidence," "foundation," or "state."

Its theological significance, particularly in Hebrews 1:3, became pivotal in articulating Christological and Trinitarian doctrines.

J.

I'm still waiting for you to show human and divine - you recall what you said Johann. Your words "Christ is fully human and fully divine"

Show where you got this from.

F2F

 

[Grailhunter]

And then there are over a hundred scriptural reasons why the one God formula for the Trinity is false.

 

[Johann]

But not one verse which explain Hypostasis...not 1

Hebrews 1:3:
"Ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ..."
(Who being the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His substance...)

This verse describes Jesus as the radiance of God's glory and the exact imprint of His nature or substance, affirming His divine nature and unique relationship to the Father.

Just gave you one.

J.

 

[face2face]

If God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life,
why did he turn around and make it so hard to find the truth that only the few who believe like you do will be saved?

This is a good question! There is an answer but its one that might not sit that well with you.
F2F

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I do believe that the word Trinity is not biblical, am I right ?

Yes, you are.

 

[Grailhunter]

Most Christian denominations proclaim a belief in the Trinity, and its existence is certain, it is the details that vary. Some define the Trinity as three persons in one God, some turn the perspective around and believe that the Trinity is one God with three aspects. Some reduce the Trinity to a duo, the Holy Spirit merely being the projection of Yahweh or Yeshua’s spirit...not a God….a spirit, different in substance than Yahweh or Yeshua. Part of this was due to not giving the Holy Spirit a name.

 

[face2face]

Hebrews 1:3:
"Ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ..."
(Who being the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His substance...)

This verse describes Jesus as the radiance of God's glory and the exact imprint of His nature or substance, affirming His divine nature and unique relationship to the Father.

Just gave you one.

J.

The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 1:4 Thus he became so far better than the angels as he has inherited a name superior to theirs. Heb 1:3–4.

When will you start being honest with yourself and others?

This is NOT speaking to Christ in Sin's Flesh (nature), and you know it! Your wresting of Scripture is getting tiresome J.

F2F

 

[Johann]

I'm still waiting for you to show human and divine - you recall what you said Johann. Your words "Christ is fully human and fully divine"

Show where you got this from.

F2F

The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 1:4 Thus he became so far better than the angels as he has inherited a name superior to theirs. Heb 1:3–4.

When will you start being honest with yourself and others?

This is NOT speaking to Christ in Sin's Flesh (nature), and you know it! Your wresting of Scripture is getting tiresome J.

F2F

Where did I ever state that this refers to Christ in "sin's flesh"? Your persistent misrepresentation of my words and attributing statements to me that I did not make is becoming increasingly tiresome.

J.

 

[face2face]

Hebrews 1:3:
"Ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ..."
(Who being the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His substance...)

This verse describes Jesus as the radiance of God's glory and the exact imprint of His nature or substance, affirming His divine nature and unique relationship to the Father.

Just gave you one.

J.

The irony is that you claim exact representation in red, yet it doesn't capture the very substance being represented or reflected. If Jesus is a reflection or a carbon copy of the original, then he cannot be the original substance!

You get this Johann?

When you are an exact reflection of Christ you will not be Christ!

And don't for a second think God became so far better than the angels as he has inherited a name superior to theirs. Heb 1:4.

You would need to be a fool if you thought the Sovereign Almighty God can be compared to Angels!

When will you put away your commentaries and start to open the Word for yourself?

F2F

 

[Grailhunter]

Now this one God formula makes you wonder how God the Father fits in! Oddly enough, the “confusion factor” comes from a “qualifying condition” from the 4th century on, the thinking is if it makes no sense or cannot be understood, that is the qualifying factor that it is of God! This is an interesting topic in itself. Debates over what the Trinity meant, and or what it is, has continued throughout the centuries. The winning point always has been and is, that the Gospels clearly document the presence, actions, communications, and movements, of three persons (Gods). Yahweh, God the Father, God Almighty and Creator of all things....The God Yeshua, God the Son, Messiah, Savior of the world....God the Holy Spirit....Guide and teacher and communicator and strengthener.

 

[Marvelloustime]

Anyone who does not Have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to HIM .
If the SPIRIT be in us then the body is dead because of sins .
What i think we need to all do is go and look at what the actaul FRUIT of THE TRUE HOLY SPIRIT produces .
What is The actual fruit and what does IT PROVE .
The fruit of the SPIRIT is in all goodness , righteousness , and TRUTH . proving that which is Acceptable
to GOD . not to man , TO GOD .
Sin is not acceptable , Other relgions are not acceptable , UNBELIEF in CHRIST is not acceptable TO GOD.
in fact the only way to be made ACCEPTABLE to GOD IS IN CHRIST JESUS . .
The SPIRIT testifies OF JESUS the CHRIST it dont try and build a religion of false love good works and etc
and cliams it dont matter if one believes IN JESUS or NOT . that is NOT THE SPIRIT at work .
Many can profess to believe , but rather they believe what men who twist things tell them ABOUT JESUS . now that has
been a problem for quite some time .
ONLY the born again TRULY CALL HIM LORD and have the SPIRIT and thus their fruits and the FRUIT of the SPIRIT is seen in them .
Many follow another spirit , another jesus , another gospel . So my advice to all is
LETS really get into the bible to learn OF JESUS , to learn the HOLY SPIRIT INSPIRED WORDS of TRUTH that were left to us to learn .
To be made wise unto salvation through FAITH IN JESUS THE CHRIST and not rather as many do faith in the jesus men created
by twisting the scriptures . .

@amigo de christo