THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

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Ritajanice

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Look at this @Wrangler

9 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
 
J

Johann

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Largely agree, but I will push back on your third example. I am firmly in Daniel Wallace's camp when it comes to Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 (“Consequently, in Titus 2:13 and 2 Pet 1:1 we are compelled to recognize that, on a grammatical level, a heavy burden of proof rests with the one who wishes to deny that 'God and Savior' refers to one person, God.”) Sharp Redivivus? - A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule | Bible.org But 2 Thess. 1:12 not only takes no umbrage under the Granville Sharp rule, it lacks the syntax needed to make the interpretive leap because Ιησου Χριστου is a proper name.
Granville Sharp Rule and 2 Thessalonians 1:12
The Granville Sharp Rule specifies that when two singular nouns of the same case are connected by the conjunction kai ("and"), with the first noun having the definite article and the second not, they refer to the same person or entity. This rule has clear applications in passages such as Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1, where both "God" and "Savior" refer to Jesus Christ.

However, 2 Thessalonians 1:12 does not follow this pattern. The phrase tou Theou hēmōn kai Kyriou Iēsou Christou ("our God and Lord Jesus Christ") does not create the necessary grammatical structure for applying the Granville Sharp Rule. Iēsou Christou is indeed a proper name and lacks the article that is required in Sharp’s rule. The syntactical structure here is different, and it does not have the same effect of linking "God" and "Jesus" as a singular referent, as we see in Titus 2:13 or 2 Peter 1:1.

2. Syntax of 2 Thessalonians 1:12
In 2 Thessalonians 1:12, the construction “our God and the Lord Jesus Christ” is a coordinate structure, meaning that "God" and "Lord Jesus Christ" are presented as distinct but related entities. In this case, the proper name "Jesus Christ" is joined by kai to the title "Lord," which, while affirming both the divinity of Jesus and His lordship, does not syntactically compel us to collapse these into one person as the Granville Sharp Rule would suggest.

3. Interpretive Challenges
While it is true that this passage emphasizes the authority of both "God" and "Lord Jesus Christ," it is important to observe that the syntactical form doesn't support the same direct identification of the two as we find in other passages. The absence of a specific grammatical structure (like the lack of an article with "Kyrios" in this instance) weakens the interpretive argument that both terms must refer to the same person. The presence of a distinct "proper name" for Jesus further differentiates the two titles.

4. Theological Implication
The argument against applying the Granville Sharp Rule in 2 Thessalonians 1:12 does not diminish the theological understanding that Jesus is fully divine and shares in the glory of God.

I think we can agree here @RedFan? ^^^^^^^^


Other passages, such as John 1:1, John 20:28, and Colossians 2:9, clearly affirm the deity of Christ. However, in this specific verse, while it affirms the Lordship of Jesus and His participation in God's glory, the Granville Sharp Rule does not apply.


Therefore, while Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 indeed demonstrate a grammatical structure that supports the deity of Christ under the Granville Sharp Rule, 2 Thessalonians 1:12 does not meet the necessary syntactical criteria to apply the rule in the same way. As such, 2 Thessalonians 1:12 should be read with a recognition of the distinction between the Father and the Son in the passage, even while maintaining the biblical affirmation of the shared glory and lordship of both.

Bible.org is an excellent site-so is Precept Austin brother.


J.
 
J

Johann

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I agree with that and I think most Trinitarians would agree. Where you and I perhaps disagree is on whether the absence of explicit mention of the Trinity in Scripture is dispositive. I've said all along that the Trinity is an outgrowth of Greek philosophical analysis (Post #42). I just happen to think the Early Church Fathers got it right.
And so do I and many here are not interested in reading the ECF's.

J.
 
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David in NJ

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Hello my friend..well he certainly wasn’t God..imo.

Yes, just the one God, who made all things.

God has always been I believe.

If John was saul, then he got knowledge from God. Didn’t God speak to him on the road to Damascus?

Don’t understand this ,Brother? I’m 100% open to learning, but, I must understand in my spirit by the Spirit bringing it to my understanding.
I’m 100% open to learning, but, I must understand in my spirit by the Spirit bringing it to my understanding.
There is only One Way by which the Holy Spirit brings to us understanding = "It is written"

There is only One Way unto Salvation = "Sanctify them in your word - Your word is Truth"

JESUS says: IAM the Way the Truth and the Life - no one comes to FATHER but thru ME

SEE = there are THREE that are TRUTH


@Ritajanice the THREE are all of GOD/ELOHIM/PLURAL

John 14:15 - If you love (1)Me/Jesus, keep My commandments. And I will pray the (2)Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— (3)the Spirit of truth/Holy Spirit, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
 

Wrangler

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Excellent posts, Brother, imo..Praise God...certainly resonating with my spirit...just my thoughts.
Thank you sister. GHts

There is a quote from Galileo who says he does not feel obligated to believe in a God who gave us reason, intellect and expects us to forego its use.

The trinity has to violate 4 pillars of understanding at every turn:
  1. Definition
  2. Logic
  3. Language Usage
  4. Explicit Scripture
I could add a 5th pillar; implications from Scripture, Because the trinity is not in the Bible, there is no Scriptural reason to believe that accepting the doctrine of the trinity is important.
 
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RedFan

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Thank you sister. GHts

There is a quote from Galileo who says he does not feel obligated to believe in a God who gave us reason, intellect and expects us to forego its use.

The trinity has to violate 4 pillars of understanding at every turn:
  1. Definition
  2. Logic
  3. Language Usage
  4. Explicit Scripture
I could add a 5th pillar; implications from Scripture, Because the trinity is not in the Bible, there is no Scriptural reason to believe that accepting the doctrine of the trinity is important.
Happy to talk about Logic with you, my friend. Are you interested in a deep dive with me here?
 
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Ritajanice

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There is only One Way by which the Holy Spirit brings to us understanding = "It is written"
Don’t agree, we need the Living Holy Spirit testifying of Gods truth to our spirit.

The Bible confirms what the Spirit testifies to our spirit.
There is only One Way unto Salvation = "Sanctify them in your word - Your word is Truth"l
There is only one way to be Born Again = by supernatural divine heart revelation.
JESUS says: IAM the Way the Truth and the Life - no one comes to FATHER but thru ME
Amen!
SEE = there are THREE that are TRUTH
My belief differs.
@Ritajanice the THREE are all of GOD/ELOHIM/PLURAL

John 14:15 - If you love (1)Me/Jesus, keep My commandments. And I will pray the (2)Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— (3)the Spirit of truth/Holy Spirit, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
We have the Living Holy Spirit, testifying to our spirit all day every day that we are Gods children.

Our spirit is reborn and it’s in the Spirit ...the Spirit is not Jesus it came from God.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Don’t agree, we need the Living Holy Spirit testifying of Gods truth to our spirit.

The Bible confirms what the Spirit testifies to our spirit.

There is only one way to be Born Again = by supernatural divine heart revelation.

Amen!

My belief differs.

We have the Living Holy Spirit, testifying to our spirit all day every day that we are Gods children.

Our spirit is reborn and it’s in the Spirit ...the Spirit is not Jesus it came from God.
Again, if two different people say they have been taught by God. Yet they both have apposing views. They can not both be hearing from God.

we need some other form of communication or proof to determine who is actually hearing from God
 

Ritajanice

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The Spirit testifies Of Jesus And God...he is Gods messenger, he is not God...he was sent by God, just as his penned word confirms.

He testifies to our spirit that we are Gods children.

He testified to my spirit that Jesus hung on a cross for my sin.

Jesus came to spread the good news.

The Holy Spirit testifies to our spirit when we become Born Again...who Jesus is and who God is..

All 3 are not one God..nonsense.
 
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Wrangler

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Again, if two different people say they have been taught by God. Yet they both have apposing views. They can not both be hearing from God.

we need some other form of communication or proof to determine who is actually hearing from God
Not necessarily true. If God is telling @Ritajanice to go East and me to go West, we can both be hearing from God even though the messages are opposite.

Regarding doctrine; again, my experience lines up perfectly with @Ritajanice in that I get no confirmation of the inherently contradictory doctrine. Moreover, my entire religious walk reinforces true doctrine is divinely simple, too simple for many. People have to invent all this complicated doctrine and ritual.
 
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Wrangler

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The Spirit testifies Of Jesus And God...he is Gods messenger, he is not God...he was sent by God, just as his penned word confirms.
As I wrote in post #148, trinitarians have to ignore the reasons rejecting the trinity is important; first fruits.

Language usage: What does first imply? A series of like to follow.

If Jesus is not a man - and only a man - he is not the first fruit and his resurrection is not our proof of God’s plan for us.
 

Ritajanice

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If Jesus is not a man - and only a man - he is not the first fruit and his resurrection is not our proof of God’s plan for us.
If he was only a man then I’d agree...he was a man with the divine nature, ..

n 1 Corinthians 15:20, Paul mentions Christ as the “first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.” Jesus was God's first fruits—his one and only son, and the best that humanity had to offer. God gave Jesus, who was raised from the dead, up for us, in the same way that we sacrifice the best we have for him

2 Peter 1:3-4

King James Version

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
 
J

Johann

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The trinity has to violate 4 pillars of understanding at every turn:
Don't think so.

The Bible never uses the word “trinity,” but the Scriptures are full of references to the three persons of God. Let’s look at some Bible verses that shed light on the trinitarian nature of God.

The Scriptures are clear that there are three (persons) who may rightly be called God. Paul’s assertion that “there is but one God” establishes his belief in the one God based on the monotheism of the Old Testament. His reference to “the Father” is not meant to say this one God is the Father only, but that “the Father” is God. Other passages indicate that “the Son” is God and yet other passages indicate that “the Spirit” is God. This is not to suggest that there are three gods (i.e., tritheism) but that each one of the persons may rightly be called God. At the same time, the three are not merely three different names of the one God, as if there are times when the one God is called “Father,” and at other times He is called “the Son,” and yet other times He is called “the Holy Spirit” (i.e., modalism). The Scriptures reveal that there is one God (substance, essence; Greek ousia) in three persons (subsistence; Greek hypostasis).

Summary: While the term “Trinity” is not used in the Bible, the Scriptures clearly reveal that there is one God, and just as clearly, they speak of three who may be rightly called God, and the three each have the characteristics of personhood. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit each possess knowledge, show emotion, demonstrate will. The creedal statement—one God in three persons—is an accurate summary of what the Bible says about the one God who is the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. In short, the doctrine of the Trinity is not imposed upon the texts of Scripture but emerges from what the Scriptures reveal about the one God and the three, who are distinct persons who deserve to be called God.

We teach that there is but one living and true God (Deut. 6:4; Isa. 45:5–7; 1 Cor. 8:4), an infinite, all-knowing Spirit (John 4:24), perfect in all His attributes, one in essence, eternally existing in three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14)—each equally deserving worship and obedience.[1]

Indications in the Old Testament
There are no texts in the Old Testament that explicitly teach the Trinity. There are texts that can be seen as indications of, and which are in harmony with, the doctrine of the Trinity.

Indications of a Plurality in God
Genesis 1:26a
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.”

Genesis 3:22a
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil.”

Genesis 11:7
“Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language.”

Isaiah 6:8a
Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?”

In Genesis 1:26 God is speaking and the Hebrew text uses a first-person plural verb to describe that speaking, in the expression “Let Us make.” Also, God uses a plural pronoun “Our” when He refers to the “image” in which He is making man. Again, in Genesis 11:7 God uses a first-person plural verb: “let Us go down.” In both Genesis 3:22 and Isaiah 6:8 God uses a plural pronoun (“Us”) to refer to Himself. As noted in the name “Elohim,” these plurals may be indications of majesty and intensity, but with the clearer revelation of the Trinity given in the New Testament these texts seem to reveal a divine acknowledgment of His actual plurality.

Indications in Messianic Prophecy
Isaiah 61:1a
The Spirit of the Lord god is upon me,
Because the Lord has anointed me.

In this text the Messiah is speaking. (This text was read by Jesus in the synagogue at Nazareth. On that occasion He affirmed that the prophecy was fulfilled in His ministry [see Luke 4:16–21].) The Messiah is describing His empowerment by the Spirit and His commission by Yahweh. In this text He makes reference to the Lord (Yahweh) and to the Spirit of the Lord (Yahweh) in such a way that these titles may be understood to refer to two distinct entities, both of which are identified by the name Yahweh. If the Messiah is still speaking through verse 8 (“For I, the Lord (Yahweh), love justice”), then He identifies Himself by the name Yahweh. Again, this is an indication of a plurality in God and prepares for the full revelation of the Trinity in the New Testament.

Indications in the New Testament
Three Names
Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.”

2 Corinthians 13:14
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.”

The references in Scripture to the names (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and the separate identities indicated (God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit) within one verse is significant. These are indications that each name stands for a distinct person and each identity belongs to a distinct person. Consequently, this is indicative of the reality of the Trinity. In these texts the Trinity is not something that is being argued, rather it is simply assumed. These are the kind of texts that were studied and debated by the scholars and bishops of the church in the second through the fourth centuries and those debates led to the orthodox creeds of the church. What the church later succinctly articulated in creeds (such as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed AD 381) is squarely-based on what the church read in the New Testament. In other words, the Trinity was not invented by the framers of the creeds, but it was discerned by them to be the teaching of Scripture.

J.
 

Wrangler

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I just happen to think the Early Church Fathers got it right.
Why do you think God’s Word got it wrong?

If the Early Church Fathers got it right to invent the doctrine of the trinity and the trinity is not in God’s Word, the only conclusion is the 66 books of the Bible got it wrong, incomplete at best.
 

Behold

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Thank you sister. GHts

There is a quote from Galileo who says he does not feel obligated to believe in a God who gave us reason, intellect and expects us to forego its use.

The trinity has to violate 4 pillars of understanding at every turn:

  1. Logic
  2. Language Usage
  3. Explicit Scripture

The very instant you try to understand "Spiritual Things" using the Natural Mind.... you have failed, utterly, and will remain so.

See, Everything with Christianity, is enmity against Logical "natural mind"... Understanding.

So, when you try to pursue the understanding of The Trinity, according to analytical thinking, that is the natural mind... then you fail......as its not possible.

An atheist says..>>"well then if i cant understand it, and if i cant SEE IT with my own eyes, i guess thats why im an Atheist".

And God says..>>>"My ways are not your ways.." "My Thoughts are not your Thoughts'..... and He's not kidding them.

Reader, you cant EVER "figure out" why A Jew Hanging on a Cross, 2000 yrs ago.... is ALL that God offers you to TRUST, so that based on your TRUST.... God will accept you and save you.

A.) ..."Christianity is ALL Spiritual.. its ALL Faith based".. so stop trying to figure it out, and just BELIEVE IT, and then God will show you why....

"Well, i will never believe in the Trinity".......

Right.. and that is because you are trying to REASON it... for yourself......

However.....The BIBLE proves the Trinity, in one verse.

"And the world was made by Jesus".

So, thats inescapable, unless you "will never believe in the Trinity, = so dont show me that """"Jesus made the world"" as only God made the world"..

"Dont show me that Colossians 1:16, says the same thing"..
 
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