Brakelite
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You don't need the trinity to believe Christ is God. You only need to believe He is God's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.
THE Trinity can Now be discussed.
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face2face
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You don't need to believe Christ is God fullstop!
You need to believe God provided a passover lamb which was slain from the foundation of the World. God is not a lamb though He provided one in His Son.
A lamb of promise! A seed of the woman as promised! A Son of Promise who would come from the line of Abraham and David and be of his root!
Eventually you will see the Son of Man who became the Son of God not, God the Son.
F2F
face2face
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@Brakelite
I noticed the point about the Curtain was not acknowledged...
"And bring it within the vail" Lev 16:12
The High Priest would enter the holy place and then pass through to the Most Holy, a barrier marked by a heavy curtain. On the Day of Atonement, this curtain was drawn aside to allow entry. In the antitype, when the Lord expired on the stake, the veil of the temple was torn by angelic hands (Read Heb 10:20). Paul elaborates on this in Hebrews 4:14, saying, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest, that is passed through the heavens..." The "heavens" in this context refer to both the holy place and the Most Holy, signifying how the Lord passed through the earthly state of the holy place to reach the immortal state beyond the veil—His flesh—upon completing His service. This event was foreshadowed by the Aaronic High Priest's actions on the Day of Atonement.
If you don't understand why the Lord's flesh had to be torn, you will never fully grasp the true nature of Christ and the work God accomplished in Him.
You can never comprehend the immense victory of that day, or the cost borne by both the Father and the Son.
What is clear, however, is that the tearing of His flesh powerfully declared God's righteousness. Through this, He raised and exalted Christ in a way that no being has ever been exalted before, for such is the unique nature of this creation.
F2F
I noticed the point about the Curtain was not acknowledged...
"And bring it within the vail" Lev 16:12
The High Priest would enter the holy place and then pass through to the Most Holy, a barrier marked by a heavy curtain. On the Day of Atonement, this curtain was drawn aside to allow entry. In the antitype, when the Lord expired on the stake, the veil of the temple was torn by angelic hands (Read Heb 10:20). Paul elaborates on this in Hebrews 4:14, saying, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest, that is passed through the heavens..." The "heavens" in this context refer to both the holy place and the Most Holy, signifying how the Lord passed through the earthly state of the holy place to reach the immortal state beyond the veil—His flesh—upon completing His service. This event was foreshadowed by the Aaronic High Priest's actions on the Day of Atonement.
If you don't understand why the Lord's flesh had to be torn, you will never fully grasp the true nature of Christ and the work God accomplished in Him.
You can never comprehend the immense victory of that day, or the cost borne by both the Father and the Son.
What is clear, however, is that the tearing of His flesh powerfully declared God's righteousness. Through this, He raised and exalted Christ in a way that no being has ever been exalted before, for such is the unique nature of this creation.
F2F
face2face
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While this is true, Wrangler, we are called to understand much more than just a title of God. What is truly confronting is the ignorance of those who claim to have knowledge. It deeply concerns me the lack of understanding among those who profess to know. This will surely lead to dire consequences when the Lord returns. We are called, "today," to embrace the honor of kings in diligently seeking out the truth (Prov 25:2).
F2F
No, he is not God, you think God can come down here as he is?
You think God can birth me in his almighty Spirit?
The Holy Spirit came from God....and nowhere in scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit is God.
No human on this earth could ever see God and live.
Jesus is not God, he was sent by God to teach the good news about God...Jesus was divine in that he was Born Of God in no shape or form was Jesus fully God...how ridiculous to even think that he was.
John 14:26, “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”Jesus is not going to abandon us, he promises to send the Advocate, other translations say the Helper, or the Comforter
The Father sent us the Holy Spirit so that we can become Born Of The Spirit....the Holy Spirit is not the Almighty Spirit Of God....
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Exo 3:14 And Elohim said unto Moshe, Eh-heh-yeh asher Ehheh- yeh (I AM WHO I AM); and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the Bnei Yisroel, EHHEH-YEH (I AM) hath sent me unto you.
Exo 3:15 And Elohim said moreover unto Moshe, Thus shalt thou say unto Bnei Yisroel: Hashem, Elohei Avoteichem, Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, and Elohei Ya'akov, hath sent me unto you: this is Shemi l'olam, and this is My remembrance unto all generations.
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
J.
Don't tag me F2F-I hold to the Triune Godhead and Deity of Mashiach.
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
"the Word was God" This verb is imperfect tense as in Joh_1:1 a. There is no article (which identifies the subject, see F. F. Bruce, Answers to Questions, p. 66) with Theos, but Theos is placed first in the Greek phrase for emphasis. This verse and Joh_1:18 are strong statements of the full deity of the pre-existent Logos (cf. Joh_5:18; Joh_8:58; Joh_10:30; Joh_14:9; Joh_17:11; Joh_20:28; Rom_9:5; Heb_1:8; 2Pe_1:1). Jesus is fully divine as well as fully human (cf. 1Jn_4:1-3). He is not the same as God the Father, but He is the very same divine essence as the Father.
The NT asserts the full deity of Jesus of Nazareth, but protects the distinct personhood of the Father. The one divine essence is emphasized in Joh_1:1; Joh_5:18; Joh_10:30; Joh_10:34-38; Joh_14:9-10; and Joh_20:28, while their distinctives are emphasized in Joh_1:2; Joh_1:14; Joh_1:18; Joh_5:19-23; Joh_8:28; Joh_10:25; Joh_10:29; Joh_14:11-13; Joh_14:16.
Joh_1:2 This is parallel to Joh_1:1 and emphasizes again the shocking truth in light of monotheism that Jesus, who was born around 6-5 B.C., has always been with the Father and, therefore, is Deity.
CHRIST: THE UNCREATED CREATOR OF ALL CREATION
The inspired Scriptures proclaim that the Father employed the Son to create and preserve the whole entire creation: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. …
answeringislamblog.wordpress.com
FURTHER READING
JEHOVAH GOD: OUR PLURAL CREATOR AND SUSTAINER
THE NWT TESTIFIES THAT THE TRINITY IS THE ETERNAL CREATOR!
The Early Church’s Interpretation of the Hebrew Bible’s Use of Plural Pronouns for God
Anti-Trinitarians agree that the reason why God in the OT referred to Himself in the plural is because He was speaking with his Divine Son!
CHRIST: THE UNCREATED CREATOR OF ALL CREATION
JESUS THE ETERNAL CREATOR AND SUSTAINER
JESUS AS THE ETERNAL CREATOR IN HEBREWS
JESUS CHRIST: SUPREME OVER ALL CREATION
The Book of Hebrews and Jesus as Creator
J.
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God abides in us by the Holy Spirt, and Christ describe the Holy Spirit as HE, so a person, not just power.
Romans 5:5
Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
John 14
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.
Romans 5:5
Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
John 14
Jesus Promises Another Helper
15 “If you love Me, [d]keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.Indwelling of the Father and the Son
19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and [f]manifest Myself to him.”22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.
face2face
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Wow, I didn't realize this doctrine grants certain privileges in this forum.
@Brakelite, it's quite subtle how they introduce this, isn't it?
The more we examine this topic, the more this error will echo loudly throughout this forum.
The Church, in its teaching concerning the Dogma of the Trinity, uses the philosophical concepts essence, nature, substance, hypostasis and person.
Why has this introduction of Hypostatis taken place?
The answer centres around the debates which took place over Christs nature in and around 300 - 400 AD.
The Apostles put forward the Masters nature is very clear terms
Jesus in every respect:
Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he (Jesus) likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil), 2:15 and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death. 2:16 For surely his concern is not for angels, but he is concerned for Abraham’s descendants. 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. 2:18 For since he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.
Heb 2:14–18.
Jesus shared in our flesh and blood
God through Jesus removed sins power (devil = false accuser)
Jesus in every respect was held under deaths dominion and died to sin once!
No mention of duality of natures or hypostatis in any form! Emphasis is actually the opposite!
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 8:2 For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 8:3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, Ro 8:1–4.
God condemned sin in the nature of Christ.
How was sin manifested in the body of Christ?
How did God condemn sin in His Son?
Can God simultaneously be both divine and human, with a sinful nature?
Can God be both "held under deaths dominion" and be "Eternal"? Can these two opposing natures dwell together?
In the Flesh of Christ is he a blend of flesh and blood and divine nature?
It is clear that no Christian on earth can both prove the concept of Hypostasis, or explain it with true understanding. This is a fact, and even the most staunch Trinitarian believers would likely agree, with many eventually resorting to calling it an unintelligible mystery.
I could list 20 key verses wihch show Jesus's nature was the exact same nature as we have and for good reason.
Romans 3:25 & 26 present very real problems for people who hold this belief.
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
So its his blood which present the Atonement? Why his blood? What was it about this blood which now is able to cleanse?
It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
God presented Christ on the cross to demonstrate His righteous treatment of Christ's nature, which deserved death. Through this example of Christ's life and death, God revealed His justice and mercy.
Now God did not put his own nature to death - impossible! He was only in Christ in mind and thought!
Johann cannot provide any verses in the Bible except John 1:1-4 which he wrests to force Hypostasis.
Here is a list of quotes that show mans constituition: A constitution Christ was born into and whose purpose it was to overcome!
- Isaiah 64:8 – "But now, O Lord, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."
- 1 Corinthians 15:47 – "The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven."
- Job 4:19 – "How much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
- Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 – "For what happens to the children of man happens to the animals; as the one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the animals, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return."
- Genesis 3:19 – "By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."
- Job 34:14-15 – "If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust."
- Psalm 103:14 – "For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust."
- Isaiah 40:6, 8 – "A voice says, 'Cry!' And I said, 'What shall I cry?' All flesh is grass, and all its beauty is like the flower of the field. The grass withers, the flower fades when the breath of the Lord blows on it; surely the people are grass. The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever."
- 1 Peter 1:24 – "For 'All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever.' And this word is the good news that was preached to you."
- Psalm 103:15 – "As for man, his days are like grass; he flourishes like a flower of the field."
- James 1:10 – "And the rich in his humiliation, because like a flower of the grass he will pass away."
- Isaiah 45:9 – "Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots. Does the clay say to him who forms it, 'What are you making?' or 'Your work has no handles'?"
- John 3:6 – "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
- Psalm 90:3 – "You return man to dust and say, 'Return, O children of man!'"
- Ecclesiastes 12:7 – "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."
- Psalm 78:39 – "He remembered that they were but flesh, a wind that passes and comes not again."
- Isaiah 40:15, 17, 22 – "Behold, the nations are like a drop from a bucket and are accounted as the dust on the scales; behold, he takes up the coastlands like fine dust... All the nations are as nothing before him, they are accounted by him as less than nothing and emptiness... It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers..."
- Daniel 4:35 – "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, 'What have you done?'"
- Genesis 18:27 – "Abraham answered and said, 'Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes.'"
- Job 33:6 – "Behold, I am toward God as you are; I too was pinched off from a piece of clay."
F2F
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We can also grieve the Holy Spirit, showing He is personal, not just the power of God.
The Lord God, the Son, the Holy Spirit, all three of them can all experience grief.
Genesis 6:6
And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Mark 3:5
And when He had looked around at them with anger, being grieved by the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored as whole as the other.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
The Lord God, the Son, the Holy Spirit, all three of them can all experience grief.
Genesis 6:6
And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Mark 3:5
And when He had looked around at them with anger, being grieved by the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored as whole as the other.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Jesus is the SON of God...Jesus is NOT God.
Jesus was Born Of Mary....
Luke 1:26-35
King James Version
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Jesus was God manifested in the flesh, and it is called - mentioned as the great mystery of godliness.
Yes, it is a mystery, which is without controversy, because as Paul says, it is real and true. Only men make it controversial.
1 Timothy 3
The Great Mystery
14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and [h]ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the [i]mystery of godliness:God[j] was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
.
1 Timothy 3:16King James Version (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
We have the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, in our hearts, only he can make us know of God, by divine heart revelation, he is Gods Living witness, who witnesses the truth of God and his word to our spirit.
Reborn in our spirit by Gods witness, ..he is NOT God, there is only one God, he sustains the whole world and don’t deliberately mess with him!.once you have been reborn in your spirit.
Respect and Honour God in your spirit .
We have the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, in our hearts, only he can make us know of God, by divine heart revelation, he is Gods Living witness, who witnesses the truth of God and his word to our spirit.
Reborn in our spirit by Gods witness, ..he is NOT God, there is only one God, he sustains the whole world and don’t deliberately mess with him!.once you have been reborn in your spirit.
Respect and Honour God in your spirit .
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The Mystery of God...
Colossians 2
1 For I want you to know what a great conflict[a] I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, [b]both of the Father and of Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing [c]to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding [d]in it with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest anyone [e]cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead [f]bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all [g]principality and power.
Colossians 2
1 For I want you to know what a great conflict[a] I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, [b]both of the Father and of Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing [c]to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding [d]in it with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest anyone [e]cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead [f]bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all [g]principality and power.
Your claim that the term hypostasis (ὑπόστασις) was introduced solely in response to Christological debates between 300–400 AD can be critiqued from both a historical and textual perspective. The term has roots in Greek philosophy and language long before these debates and appears in Scripture itself, reflecting theological usage that predates the Christological controversies.
Hypostasis in Pre-Christian Greek Usage
The term hypostasis was not invented in the 4th century; it was already in use within Greek philosophy. In classical Greek, it conveyed meanings such as "substance," "foundation," or "existence." Philosophers like Aristotle and the Stoics used it to discuss the reality or essence underlying appearances.
Early Christian writers adopted Greek philosophical language to articulate theological truths, including the nature of God and Christ, making hypostasis a natural choice for expressing these concepts.
Scriptural Presence of Hypostasis
As demonstrated, ὑπόστασις appears in the New Testament multiple times, including in Hebrews 1:3, which describes Christ as the "express image of [God's] hypostasis." This textual evidence predates the Christological debates of the 4th century and demonstrates that the term was already being used to articulate theological ideas about God's nature.
Its use in Hebrews 11:1 as the "substance" or "assurance" of faith also suggests that it was an established theological and philosophical term within the early Christian lexicon.
Theological Clarification, Not Introduction
The 4th-century debates, such as those involving the Arian controversy, did not introduce hypostasis but clarified and refined its usage.
The distinction between hypostasis (person) and ousia (essence) became necessary to combat heresies like Arianism, which denied the full divinity of Christ, and Sabellianism, which conflated the persons of the Trinity.
The Cappadocian Fathers (e.g., Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa) articulated these distinctions to safeguard the biblical truths about the Trinity and Christ's nature. Their work did not invent the term but built on its scriptural and philosophical roots.
Pre-Nicene Usage in Theology
Even before the 4th century, Christian writers were grappling with the nature of Christ and the Godhead. For instance:
Origen (185–253 AD) used hypostasis to describe the distinction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, well before the Council of Nicaea (325 AD).
The Apology of Aristides (early 2nd century) and the writings of Irenaeus (c. 130–202 AD) contain ideas that would later be associated with hypostasis, though not always using the exact term.
Septuagint Usage of Hypostasis
The term hypostasis is also found in the Greek Septuagint, used centuries before Christ and the later theological debates. For example:
Wisdom of Solomon 16:21: Describes the "substance" of God's provision.
Psalm 38:5 (39:5 LXX): Uses hypostasis to denote existence or essence.
This usage demonstrates that the term had a theological dimension in Jewish thought, which likely influenced its adoption in Christian contexts.
Christological Debates as a Refinement
The debates of the 4th century were not about introducing new terminology but about resolving theological disputes using established concepts. The councils of Nicaea (325 AD) and Constantinople (381 AD) sought to articulate the biblical witness to Christ’s divine and human natures and the Trinity in ways that were faithful to Scripture.
The term hypostasis was neither invented nor introduced exclusively during the 4th-century debates. Its use is rooted in earlier philosophical, scriptural, and theological traditions. While the Christological controversies clarified its application, particularly in distinguishing person from essence within Trinitarian theology, the concept and term predate these events by centuries.
Blessed Trinity, The
Trinity, THE BLESSED.—This article is divided as follows: I. Dogma of the Trinity; II. Proof of the Doctrine from Scripture; III. Proof of the Doctrine from Tra...
Contents
I. THE DOGMA OF THE TRINITY.
II. PROOF OF DOCTRINE FROM SCRIPTURE.
III. PROOF OF THE DOCTRINE FROM TRADITION.
IV. THE TRINITY AS A MYSTERY.
V. THE DOCTRINE AS INTERPRETED IN GREEK THEOLOGY.
VI. THE DOCTRINE AS INTERPRETED IN LATIN THEOLOGY.
J.
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Christ upholds all things by the word of His power
As you read this you can see the interlinking of Father and Son as one.
Hebrews 1
God, who [a]at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the [b]worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had [c]by Himself [d]purged [e]our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
As you read this you can see the interlinking of Father and Son as one.
Hebrews 1
God, who [a]at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the [b]worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had [c]by Himself [d]purged [e]our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
God the Father has given all things, power and authority to the Son.
They are bound together as one God, with the same mind and purpose, and it is a mystery.
John 14:28
You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
Matthew 28, God the Father gave to Christ His Son, all authority in heaven and earth.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen.
John 5
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
They are bound together as one God, with the same mind and purpose, and it is a mystery.
John 14:28
You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
Matthew 28, God the Father gave to Christ His Son, all authority in heaven and earth.
The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen.
John 5
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
More of the mystery of godliness
For even as you see the Son is God the Son, he deferred to the Lord God the Father who is the Majesty on High, humbled Himself and submitted Himself to the Father's care, and willingly went to the earth, to suffer and die for sin.
He emptied Himself and took the form of a servant.
He did that for the glory which was set before Him by God the Father, and for us to be saved, to have eternal life, to create the family of God to whom we now belong as His people, His family. All of this had to be done for that to happen. Jesus died for your sins to bring you to God the Father. He being the Way, truth, life for us to have eternal life... because God loved you, He sent the Son to be the sacrifice for your sins..
Philippians 2
Ephesians 1
15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your [f]understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality[g] and [h]power and [i]might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
For even as you see the Son is God the Son, he deferred to the Lord God the Father who is the Majesty on High, humbled Himself and submitted Himself to the Father's care, and willingly went to the earth, to suffer and die for sin.
He emptied Himself and took the form of a servant.
He did that for the glory which was set before Him by God the Father, and for us to be saved, to have eternal life, to create the family of God to whom we now belong as His people, His family. All of this had to be done for that to happen. Jesus died for your sins to bring you to God the Father. He being the Way, truth, life for us to have eternal life... because God loved you, He sent the Son to be the sacrifice for your sins..
Philippians 2
The Humbled and Exalted Christ
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it [b]robbery to be equal with God, 7 but [c]made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Ephesians 1
15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your [f]understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality[g] and [h]power and [i]might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I covered why the ecumenical Councils came up with the one God formula for the Trinity at the beginning of this thread, but I want to go over it again.
So why and when was the doctrine of the one God Trinity proposed? The doctrine of the one God Trinity was created by the Ecumenical Councils to settle irreconcilable arguments within the Council on the character and nature of God the Father and God the Son. Irreconcilable but Emperor Constantine commanded an agreement on this issue.
In and out of the Council, Christians had differing beliefs regarding Yahweh and Yeshua. The big topic was about some seeing a big difference in the character and nature and actions of Yahweh and Yeshua. Which was one of the concerns of the Gnostics. The Gnostics believed that the Old Testament God was either evil or insane. So they believed that Yeshua was the Creator God and God Almighty, essentially the only true God.
As it is a lot of main stream Christians more or less believe the same thing and promote Yeshua as the Creator God and even God Almighty. Essentially demoting Yahweh and placing Yeshua as Almighty God and placing Him in the Old Testament and then try to interpret Old Testament scriptures and events to Yeshua, even though the scriptures do not indicate any of that.
In doing this the mainstream Christians are in part adopting Gnostic beliefs.
The Ecumenical Councils wrestled with a lot of these beliefs and could not come to an agreement on the issues. But Emperor Constantine insisted that they come to agreement and set a doctrine that was forced on Christians. But that did not settle the differences.
“Some” being people in the council and outside of the council.
Some believed that Yahweh was the Creator God and some believed that Yeshua was the Creator God.
Some believed in a hierarchy, that God the Father was senior to God the Son and some believed that Yeshua was the primary God.
Some saw a difference in the character of Yahweh and Yeshua, a difference in their nature and actions.
Some believed that because God the Father begot a Son that was a God, that was proof of two Gods and then you had the Holy Spirit.
The reasoning was that if you imply that God is one person there cannot be a difference in character, nature, and substance and all events are attributed to that one person (God) The problem is the scriptures do not support this by direct explanation or even follow the storyline of events, particularly in the Gospels where Yahweh and Yeshua were interacting and referring to each other and communicating with each other. For example Christ said my Father in Heaven….Omnipresent? But Christ did not say, My Father everywhere, it is always My Father in Heaven. And of course He said the Father is greater than I.
But putting Yeshua as an active God in the Old Testament opens up a slew of questions and problems. The Mosaic Laws allowed for polygamy and treated women as property even allowed fathers to sell their daughters as sex slaves ….concubines. The Mosaic Laws called for the execution of women that were raped….and Yahweh’s rules for war included killing all the males, including male babies and all the women who were not virgins and then taking the virgins as sex slaves. The Mosaic Laws set up a culture that was very violent and cruel.
So the question is, could Yeshua be involved with any of this? This is the question that was at the heart of the disagreements that the Ecumenical Councils could not agree upon.
Now why did Yahweh establish such Laws? We may not be able to answer that, but it would be wrong to judge Yahweh on these issues because we do not know why He established these Laws. We can speculate why Yahweh set up these Laws. Where they a punishment for the sins of Adam and Eve? I am not going to say I know. You would think Laws would be set up to reduce sin but the Laws called for a lot of killing and cruelty.
But there were a lot of people in the 4th century that believed Yeshua would not agree with these Laws. So the Ecumenical Councils came up with a doctrine that negated the disagreements. If Father and Son are the same, how can they be different? And then it was forced on Christianity.
So as it is now old habits die hard and it does not matter what the scriptures say, people think that Yeshua was talking and praying to Himself. And all the rest of that happened and what was said in the Gospels does not matter, people go on thinking they are the same. But the truth is Yeshua came to settle the need for blood sacrifices by being the perfect sacrifice. His sacrifice tore the curtain in two, so we could have a relationship with Yahweh God Almighty.
Yeshua set up a religion of love and forgiveness and for the first time a Way to Heaven for humans. The details are explained at the beginning of this thread.
So why and when was the doctrine of the one God Trinity proposed? The doctrine of the one God Trinity was created by the Ecumenical Councils to settle irreconcilable arguments within the Council on the character and nature of God the Father and God the Son. Irreconcilable but Emperor Constantine commanded an agreement on this issue.
In and out of the Council, Christians had differing beliefs regarding Yahweh and Yeshua. The big topic was about some seeing a big difference in the character and nature and actions of Yahweh and Yeshua. Which was one of the concerns of the Gnostics. The Gnostics believed that the Old Testament God was either evil or insane. So they believed that Yeshua was the Creator God and God Almighty, essentially the only true God.
As it is a lot of main stream Christians more or less believe the same thing and promote Yeshua as the Creator God and even God Almighty. Essentially demoting Yahweh and placing Yeshua as Almighty God and placing Him in the Old Testament and then try to interpret Old Testament scriptures and events to Yeshua, even though the scriptures do not indicate any of that.
In doing this the mainstream Christians are in part adopting Gnostic beliefs.
The Ecumenical Councils wrestled with a lot of these beliefs and could not come to an agreement on the issues. But Emperor Constantine insisted that they come to agreement and set a doctrine that was forced on Christians. But that did not settle the differences.
“Some” being people in the council and outside of the council.
Some believed that Yahweh was the Creator God and some believed that Yeshua was the Creator God.
Some believed in a hierarchy, that God the Father was senior to God the Son and some believed that Yeshua was the primary God.
Some saw a difference in the character of Yahweh and Yeshua, a difference in their nature and actions.
Some believed that because God the Father begot a Son that was a God, that was proof of two Gods and then you had the Holy Spirit.
The reasoning was that if you imply that God is one person there cannot be a difference in character, nature, and substance and all events are attributed to that one person (God) The problem is the scriptures do not support this by direct explanation or even follow the storyline of events, particularly in the Gospels where Yahweh and Yeshua were interacting and referring to each other and communicating with each other. For example Christ said my Father in Heaven….Omnipresent? But Christ did not say, My Father everywhere, it is always My Father in Heaven. And of course He said the Father is greater than I.
But putting Yeshua as an active God in the Old Testament opens up a slew of questions and problems. The Mosaic Laws allowed for polygamy and treated women as property even allowed fathers to sell their daughters as sex slaves ….concubines. The Mosaic Laws called for the execution of women that were raped….and Yahweh’s rules for war included killing all the males, including male babies and all the women who were not virgins and then taking the virgins as sex slaves. The Mosaic Laws set up a culture that was very violent and cruel.
So the question is, could Yeshua be involved with any of this? This is the question that was at the heart of the disagreements that the Ecumenical Councils could not agree upon.
Now why did Yahweh establish such Laws? We may not be able to answer that, but it would be wrong to judge Yahweh on these issues because we do not know why He established these Laws. We can speculate why Yahweh set up these Laws. Where they a punishment for the sins of Adam and Eve? I am not going to say I know. You would think Laws would be set up to reduce sin but the Laws called for a lot of killing and cruelty.
But there were a lot of people in the 4th century that believed Yeshua would not agree with these Laws. So the Ecumenical Councils came up with a doctrine that negated the disagreements. If Father and Son are the same, how can they be different? And then it was forced on Christianity.
So as it is now old habits die hard and it does not matter what the scriptures say, people think that Yeshua was talking and praying to Himself. And all the rest of that happened and what was said in the Gospels does not matter, people go on thinking they are the same. But the truth is Yeshua came to settle the need for blood sacrifices by being the perfect sacrifice. His sacrifice tore the curtain in two, so we could have a relationship with Yahweh God Almighty.
Yeshua set up a religion of love and forgiveness and for the first time a Way to Heaven for humans. The details are explained at the beginning of this thread.
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