David in NJ
Well-Known Member
@Aunty Jane has made a very valid point.
@RLT63 made a very valid point
@Ritajanice = Can you take a look at these two VALID points
Note: BOTH POV are Valid and TRUE
THE Trinity can Now be discussed.
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@RLT63 made a very valid point
@Ritajanice = Can you take a look at these two VALID points
Note: BOTH POV are Valid and TRUE
If we are Born Again @David in NJ ...God speaks to us via the Living Holy Spirit , who is Gods living witness.
As our sins, he sees no more .Rlt63 made a good point.regarding Mose etc.
As our sins, he sees no more .Rlt63 made a good point.regarding Mose etc.
Perhaps I should at least set out the logical difficulty with the Trinity, and see if it sparks discussion here.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
I already quoted a text from Genesis. Which you ignored. (denied)
- Who is present in this discussion below?
- Who is the "us" that humankind was made in the image of?
- Why does it say "our" image?
- Why does it say "our" likeness?
Rather than redirecting to a passage you prefer. God said, us, our, our. ???
Genesis 1:26 NIV
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,
so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,
over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over
all the creatures that move along the ground.”
[
I already quoted a text from Genesis. Which you ignored. (denied)
- Who is present in this discussion below?
- Who is the "us" that humankind was made in the image of?
- Why does it say "our" image?
- Why does it say "our" likeness?
Maybe you can help me by answering the questions in a non-Trinitarian way?
Rather than redirecting to a passage you prefer. God said, us, our, our. ???
Genesis 1:26 NIV
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,
so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,
over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over
all the creatures that move along the ground.”
[
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Here's another one from Genesis. One of us?
Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said,
“The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand
and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
[
One way to look at this is in a non-monotheistc way.
The ancient Israelites were not monotheistic until some time after the Torah was penned. They considered that national gods existed, albeit with the God of Israel being supreme over the pantheon. Ex. 20:2-3 in the KJV is rendered “I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Saying “I am the Lord thy God,” rather than “I am the only God” as one would to a monotheist indicates how the ancient Israelites viewed their national God as one of many – and they would probably have understood "Thou shalt have no other gods before me” as consistent with “but thou mayest have as many gods as ye like after me.”
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Genesis 1:26 is ambiguous and not a command. Ex 20:3 is not ambiguous and is a command, God is explicitly singular (me) - and this is confirmed 1,000’s of times in Scripture.
Why would you ignore 1,000’s of times God is explicitly referred to using singular pronouns in favor of doctrinally investing in a singular, ambiguous verse where you have to read into who God is talking to?
The trinitarian MO is clear; the more ambiguous the text, the more it is doctrinally invested while ignoring explicit text to the contrary.
Yeshua also said he had a God four times in one verse - in Revelation 3:12 (WEB):
(12) He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
There is no God called the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures say "God's spirit", "the spirit of God", "the Holy Spirit". Remember Jesus said, John 4:24 (WEB):
(24) God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Jesus was a man, just like us, when he was here on the Earth (Philippians 2:7 - "being made in the likeness of men", Hebrews 2:17-18 - "Therefore he was obligated in all things to be made like his brothers, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people"), so he could not heal anybody or perform miracles. It was God who performed the miracles. God is spirit and He uses His Spirit to do things. Jesus said, Matthew 12:28 (WEB):
(28) But if I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then God’s Kingdom has come upon you.
God uses His Spirit, His Spirit is not a separate being or separate God.
Acts 10:38 (WEB):
(38) even Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
Acts 2:17 (WEB):
(17) ‘It will be in the last days, says God, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh. Your sons and your daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions. Your old men will dream dreams.
Proverbs 1:23 (WEB):
(23) Turn at my reproof. Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you. I will make known my words to you.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Why can’t you answer these questions without reading trinitarian doctrine into it?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Did i not say that BOTH points of view are VALID
How is it that @RLT63 and @Aunty Jane's point-of-views are VALID = at the SAME time!!!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Please LOGICALY review Posts 113, 180, 181 AND then see if you can 'LOGICALLY' answer the Question on Post 192
Amen!
The Holy Spirit is not God.,,was he sent to us by God ?..,or Jesus?
If he’s a Holy Spirit..he must come from God?
Sent by God to indwell the heart/ spirit of Born Agains?
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
There is most certainly a God named the Holy Spirit. And of course Yahweh has a spirit and it is holy, but it is not a God. We can say the the Bible is the Word of God....BUT....the Bible is not a God.
On the other hand the phrase Holy Spirit is not a name….Holy Spirit….Holy Ghost.
The names of the Gods is a topic a shocking topic….The name of the Holy Spirit was kept secret. That may seem shocking and weird.
There is no God named Jesus.
No “J’s” in the scriptures I am pretty sure I explained that.
The names of the Gods are not in the scriptures
Yahweh’s name was removed by sinners. (Hopefully they burning in Hell.) It use to be in Old Testament around 6,800 times. Yahweh never said to not say His name or read His name. To remove it from the scriptures and for His name to be lost had to, I say had to, be a plot of the Devil.
Yeshua's name was never in the New Testament.
The word Iesous Ἰησοῦς that people translate to Jesus cannot be translated to Jesus and it is a word not a name. In the Greek this word translates to healer. The name Jesus popped up in the 17th century and no one can say from where it came from. But no J’s in the Bible.
Yob, Yohn, Yacob, Yames, Yericho, Yoshua, Yeshua.
And we did not know His name until the 17th century!!!!????....LOL Haha!!!! That is funny!!!! As they say....Some one should have noticed this.....
Weird as it is the names of God the Father and God the Son or the Holy Spirit are not in the scriptures. I am sure Satan is doing a dance. He certainly would not want a book that was printed around the world with God's name in it.
John chapter 14
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Great point! What the Bible doesn’t say is as profound as what it says. It does not say God the son or God the HS. It says there is only one God, the Father.
‘God the Father’ is stated in every epistle. Only an IDOLATOR could completely ignore what Scripture say over and over again and replace it with their own ideas of the nature of God.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Ambiguous? - LOL
Genesis 1:26 is ambiguous?
Not in reference to how many gods there are, or how many gods make up the godhead.
It's unambiguously a We, not an I.
Furthermore, Trinitarian doctrine recognizes a three-in-one God.
So they can be refereed to either way.
Genesis 1:26 NIV
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,
so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,
over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over
all the creatures that move along the ground.”
[
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
This is worthy of exploration, thanks.
I am familiar with the idea of the Divine Council.
This could be a discussion in that group.
But that would mean that humankind was
created in the image of gods. If we can live with that.
Genesis 1:26 NIV
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,
so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,
over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over
all the creatures that move along the ground.”
[
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
You don't believe that the Holy Spirit is God?
Jesus was sent to us by God. Is Jesus not God also?
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is a person. (he/him)
John 14:16-17
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.
But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—
the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.
He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
John 16:15
All that belongs to the Father is mine.
That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
[
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
The only other choice is non-monotheism.
Which I assume you don't want to discuss.
Are you familiar with the Divine Council?
Job 1:6-7 NIV
One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan[b] also came with them.
7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
angels = the sons of God
[
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