THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[David in NJ]

Because you have adopted external error, you have no way of seeing clearly what has already been revealed to you in the Old Testament foundation. The language of creation—both physical and spiritual—has been set out clearly, but through the lens of external doctrine, it becomes obscured. You fail to see how the Logos, the Word of God, brought both the physical world and spiritual realities into being. The Old Testament reveals a singular God and His creative power, and understanding this context helps to see Christ as the fulfillment of that creation, not as a separate entity within a Trinitarian framework. If you understood God Manifestaton through mighty Ones then you would see the Christ clearly. You don't and can't while you hold T dogma.

i C clear as the 'Day' upon which i was Born-Again

Evidence A - John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Here in John 1:1-5 there are TWO Distinct Individuals = God and the Word
The TWO Distinct Individuals are of the SAME Identity and BEING = 'God'
Only One of the TWO are denoted as "the only begotten Son of God"

Therefore One of the TWO is the FATHER and the Second of the TWO is the SON

The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.
We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father,
full of grace and truth.

 

[face2face]

i C clear as the 'Day' upon which i was Born-Again

Evidence A - John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Here in John 1:1-5 there are TWO Distinct Individuals = God and the Word
The TWO Distinct Individuals are of the SAME Identity and BEING = 'God'

Yes, I can see how Christ understood God’s manifestation? The Logos (Word) is indeed the medium through which God is revealed, both in creation and in His relationship with Christ, humanity, and even the angels. As the Mind and Reason of God, the Logos brings creation into existence, manifesting God’s will and purpose in the world.

"he who has seen me has seen the Father" God purpose is seen in me, my words and actions!

In John 17:21 when Christ prays for believers to be one with God as He is one with the Father, He is speaking to the profound unity and manifestation of God's divine presence through the Logos. The unity He prays for isn’t just a metaphorical oneness but a spiritual oneness in which believers partake of God’s glory, made possible by Christ and the work of the Logos. Through the Logos, humanity is brought into this intimate relationship with God, revealing the fullness of God’s glory as the source of unity.

Christ, in this prayer, understood that the manifestation of God is not about a separate or distinct being, but about the revelation of God’s presence and power through Christ, the Logos, in and through all believers. This is how Christ fulfills God's purpose—by being the visible manifestation of the invisible God, and by revealing this same glory to those who are one with Him.

Christ’s obedience to the Father was the key to His becoming the Logos — the Word of God obeyed from the heart, fulfilling God’s plan for creation and redemption. His identity as the Logos is rooted in His submission to the Father’s will, living out God's message in word and deed.

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

For example:

Once you change Christ's nature you instantly remove God's Victory over Sins Flesh. Once this is removed you no longer have a mercy seat and the Atonement is destroyed.

It's this knock on affect which Christians are yet to grasp.

F2F

How does changing Christ's nature "instantly remove God's Victory over Sins Flesh" ???

And how about this also = "Once this is removed you no longer have a mercy seat and the Atonement is destroyed" ???

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, I can see how Christ understood God’s manifestation? The Logos (Word) is indeed the medium through which God is revealed, both in creation and in His relationship with Christ, humanity, and even the angels. As the Mind and Reason of God, the Logos brings creation into existence, manifesting God’s will and purpose in the world.

"he who has seen me has seen the Father" God purpose is seen in me, my words and actions!

In John 17:21 when Christ prays for believers to be one with God as He is one with the Father, He is speaking to the profound unity and manifestation of God's divine presence through the Logos. The unity He prays for isn’t just a metaphorical oneness but a spiritual oneness in which believers partake of God’s glory, made possible by Christ and the work of the Logos. Through the Logos, humanity is brought into this intimate relationship with God, revealing the fullness of God’s glory as the source of unity.

Christ, in this prayer, understood that the manifestation of God is not about a separate or distinct being, but about the revelation of God’s presence and power through Christ, the Logos, in and through all believers. This is how Christ fulfills God's purpose—by being the visible manifestation of the invisible God, and by revealing this same glory to those who are one with Him.

F2F

Are you a 'jw'?

jw's think like this - "Christ is God's purpose"

 

[face2face]

How does changing Christ's nature "instantly remove God's Victory over Sins Flesh" ???

And how about this also = "Once this is removed you no longer have a mercy seat and the Atonement is destroyed" ???

Again, if you don't know and you refuse to know - why bother explaining?

 

[face2face]

Are you a 'jw'?

jw's think like this - "Christ is God's purpose"

We all are God's purpose David! Christ is the firstfruits...first begotten! You understand what first implies yeah?

 

[David in NJ]

Again, if you don't know and you refuse to know - why bother explaining?

It is called 'respect' = You are being given the 'floor' by which you can elaborate on your theories

 

[David in NJ]

We all are God's purpose David! Christ is the firstfruits...first begotten! You understand what first implies yeah?

are you a follower of 'watchtower' and attend to jw beliefs ???

 

[Aunty Jane]

Are you a 'jw'?

jw's think like this - "Christ is God's purpose"

No he is not a JW……we do not believe that Jesus is merely God’s purpose….Jesus is “the son of God” as the Scriptures clearly show…..

We see that he is involved closely with God’s purpose to redeem the human race from the sin inherited from Adam.

 

[RLT63]

Yes, I can see how Christ understood God’s manifestation? The Logos (Word) is indeed the medium through which God is revealed, both in creation and in His relationship with Christ, humanity, and even the angels. As the Mind and Reason of God, the Logos brings creation into existence, manifesting God’s will and purpose in the world.

"he who has seen me has seen the Father" God purpose is seen in me, my words and actions!

In John 17:21 when Christ prays for believers to be one with God as He is one with the Father, He is speaking to the profound unity and manifestation of God's divine presence through the Logos. The unity He prays for isn’t just a metaphorical oneness but a spiritual oneness in which believers partake of God’s glory, made possible by Christ and the work of the Logos. Through the Logos, humanity is brought into this intimate relationship with God, revealing the fullness of God’s glory as the source of unity.

Christ, in this prayer, understood that the manifestation of God is not about a separate or distinct being, but about the revelation of God’s presence and power through Christ, the Logos, in and through all believers. This is how Christ fulfills God's purpose—by being the visible manifestation of the invisible God, and by revealing this same glory to those who are one with Him.

Christ’s obedience to the Father was the key to His becoming the Logos — the Word of God obeyed from the heart, fulfilling God’s plan for creation and redemption. His identity as the Logos is rooted in His submission to the Father’s will, living out God's message in word and deed.

F2F

If he was in the beginning with God when did he "become " the Logos?

 

[Aunty Jane]

How do you know it is not the Plurality of the Echad Elohim being FATHER/WORD/HOLY SPIRIT ???

Because neither Jesus nor his Father ever said that Jesus was equally God with the Father and the Holy Spirit. If they had, we would not be here arguing about this issue.

The only time they are mentioned together is at Matt 28:19-20, but it never says all three are one God…..and if you read verse 18, it clearly says that God had to give his son “authority” over all things….if he was God that statement would make no sense.

If Jesus is our High Priest, then that is a position of service to God…is God then his own High Priest? (Heb 3:1)

Jesus is also appointed as the only mediator “between God and men”….if he was God, we would need a mediator between us and him too….a mediator is one who reconciles two estranged parties…so he cannot be one of the parties.

The trinity doctrine crept into the church long after Jesus died and there were no apostles left to prevent the foretold “weeds” from sprouting and spreading like weeds always do.

These ideas were accepted or adopted from pagan beliefs and infiltrated early Christianity gradually, until all opposition to them was quashed. By the time of Constantine, the church was ready for a complete makeover….Roman Catholicism became the state religion of the Empire, but not until it had been modified for acceptance by all its constituents. It was a fusion of pagan Roman sun worship and a very weakened form of Christianity….meaning that the pagans got to keep their favorite festivals under a new name…and they turned Zeus into Jesus Christ and borrowed heavily from the Jewish priesthood and temple arrangement to model their own priesthood with grand regalia and strange hats, as well as rituals, repetitive prayers….and to build their monumental cathedrals replete with their objects of devotion.
.
The complete opposite to what Christ began.

What evidence do you have that overturns "It is written" in Genesis, Exodus, Isaiah, Gospel, Apostles, Revelation ???

Provide your evidence and we can discuss them one at a time….

 

[RLT63]

Because neither Jesus nor his Father ever said that Jesus was equally God with the Father and the Holy Spirit. If they had, we would not be here arguing about this issue.

The only time they are mentioned together is at Matt 28:19-20, but it never says all three are one God…..and if you read verse 18, it clearly says that God had to give his son “authority” over all things….if he was God that statement would make no sense.

If Jesus is our High Priest, then that is a position of service to God…is God then his own High Priest? (Heb 3:1)

Jesus is also appointed as the only mediator “between God and men”….if he was God, we would need a mediator between us and him too….a mediator is one who reconciles two estranged parties…so he cannot be one of the parties.

The trinity doctrine crept into the church long after Jesus died and there were no apostles left to prevent the foretold “weeds” from sprouting and spreading like weeds always do.

These ideas were accepted or adopted from pagan beliefs and infiltrated early Christianity gradually, until all opposition to them was quashed. By the time of Constantine, the church was ready for a complete makeover….Roman Catholicism became the state religion of the Empire, but not until it had been modified for acceptance by all its constituents. It was a fusion of pagan Roman sun worship and a very weakened form of Christianity….meaning that the pagans got to keep their favorite festivals under a new name…and they turned Zeus into Jesus Christ and borrowed heavily from the Jewish priesthood and temple arrangement to model their own priesthood with grand regalia and strange hats, as well as rituals, repetitive prayers….and to build their monumental cathedrals replete with their objects of devotion.
.
The complete opposite to what Christ began.

Provide your evidence and we can discuss them one at a time….

What better mediator between God and man than one who is both?

 

[Aunty Jane]

What better mediator between God and man than one who is both?

God cannot be his own mediator because he is one of the estranged parties….Jesus role as mediator is to facilitate communication between the two parties….God cannot have direct communication with sinful humans…..that is why we need a mediator in the first place.

 

[IronMaiden]

Hello, friends. The Trinity is God in three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are tightly united and must never be separated. In every act of God’s grace, one can see the Trinity. Consider our salvation. One can’t be saved by the Son without the Father, nor by the Father without the Son, nor by the Father and Son without the Holy Spirit.

I’ve always loved 2 Corinthians 1:3-4 as the wonderful Trinity pours forth:
2 Corinthians 1:3-4 (KJV) 3 Blessed [be] God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

 

[NotTheRock]

God cannot have direct communication with sinful humans

Didn't God have direct communication with Moses, Jonah, and others?

 

[ScottA]

There is truth in this statement, as God is God, and the Holy Spirit is His power, while His only begotten Son is His Son. However, the Holy Spirit, while often personified in Scripture for our benefit, is not a separate person but the power of God at work.

One definition of the word "person(s)" in scripture, is: "face(s)." Thus, our understanding and use of the word "person(s)" should be considered limited, whereas God is unlimited.

 

[Brakelite]

Paul uses more colorful terminology for those who distort the truth into a lie. He calls them "those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:18) and warns against those who "distort the gospel of Christ" (Galatians 1:7).

Paul uses the word "accursed" in Galatians 1:8-9, where he says, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!" He repeats this strong statement, emphasizing the seriousness of altering the true gospel.

Personally, I enjoy discussing all topics, particularly the Godhead, and I believe you do as well. A word of advice. If you want to continue discussing, I suggest you tone down the rhetoric and so-called "colorful terminology", for it was precisely that kind of expression that gave rise to the banning of the topic in the first place. Can you not discuss without the put-downs and sharp retorts?

 

[face2face]

Personally, I enjoy discussing all topics, particularly the Godhead, and I believe you do as well. A word of advice. If you want to continue discussing, I suggest you tone down the rhetoric and so-called "colorful terminology", for it was precisely that kind of expression that gave rise to the banning of the topic in the first place. Can you not discuss without the put-downs and sharp retorts?

I get it. I've dedicated years of uncovering and sharing what I believe to be the true, original Gospel, only to encounter individuals who seem to rely on the same repetitive sources and arguments, without engaging with the deeper message.

As for the colorful terminology, I get that it can sometimes add intensity to a discussion, but it can also distract from the main points I'm trying to convey. In some cases, not coulour enough, while in others, too colourful.

Thanks for the advice

F2F

 

[face2face]

If he was in the beginning with God when did he "become " the Logos?

Great question!!!

Can Paul help?

1:1 From Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God. 1:2 This gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 1:3 concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh, 1:4 who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord Ro 1:1–4.

Reading this for yourself, when would you suggest Jesus became Logos, keeping in mind he was in Sin's Flesh!

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 8:2 For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 8:3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, Ro 8:1–3.

I've highlighted the text red to assist.

If you are thinking "How can God condemn sin in the flesh of Christ, if its not present" then you would be asking another good question!

Paul developes this in many other parts of the Epistles and is "the" central theme of the Atonement.

F2F

 

[face2face]

The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.
We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father,
full of grace and truth.

@RLT63 the question is what type of Flesh?

John 13:3 states “He was come from God (Logos)” - It was all a work of God, toward God, that “No flesh should glory in his presence” - Not even the flesh of his son!!

Think about the circumstances of your call, brothers and sisters. Not many were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were born to a privileged position. 1:27 But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks weak to shame the strong. 1:28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, what is regarded as nothing, to set aside what is regarded as something, 1:29 so that no one can boast in his presence. 1:30 He is the reason you have a relationship with Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 1:31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” 1 Co 1:26–31.

If you discovered that God chose to raise up a Son in sinful flesh to condemn sin in the flesh, only to then make Him the Logos of God, would that be considered the lowly things, the despised things, or the foolish things of this world?

The question David needs to answer is this: What was required for Christ to become the Logos (Divine Nature)? What did Jesus need to endure to be exalted and given a name above every name?

If your thoughts go to His daily sufferings and the cross, then everyone in this forum would understand when Christ "became" the Logos. It was not while He was in sinful flesh, though His mind never departed from the Father, even to the end!

Imagine a God who entrusted the entire creation to the obedience of His Son and condemned sin through His death, allowing all mankind to witness it! This is a God I can praise, for He confronted sin on its own terms, in its strongest stronghold!

Now read...

15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 15:54 Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen, “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 15:55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! 15:58 So then, dear brothers and sisters, be firm. Do not be moved! Always be outstanding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
1 Co 15:53–58.

God removed the power of sin in the body of His own Son! Before you reject this - read it again carefully!

F2F