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Johann

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Idol worship is prohibited in Scripture:

Deuteronomy 6:4 affirms the oneness of God, saying, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." This underlines the rejection of any worship of idols or false gods.

You should know this J. you are without excuse

F2F
Theos is used in the N.T. of the Father, as the revealed God (see Joh_1:1. Act_17:24, &c.)
2. It is used of the Son (Mat_1:23. Joh_1:1; Joh_20:28, &c. Rom_9:5. 2Pe_1:1. 1Jn_5:20). Cp. Col_2:9 and 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4.
3. It is used of the Holy Spirit (Act_5:3-4, compared with v . 4).
4. It is used generically, as in Joh_10:34. Act_12:22. 2Co_4:4. Php_3:19, &c.
5. It is used of false gods, as in Act_7:43, &c.; and is printed "god" as in the O.T.

ii. Cognate with Theos , there are three other words to be noted :
1. Theotes , rendered "Deity", and used of Christ. Occurs only in Col_2:9, and has relation to the Godhead personally ; while
2. Theiotes , rendered "Deity" also, is Deity in the abstract . Occurs only in Rom_1:20.
3. Theios , rendered "Divine", and is used of Christ. Occurs only in 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4; and, with the Article, in Act_17:29, where it is rendered "Godhead". Gr. = that which [is] Divine.

In Scripture-concealed from prying eyes who would speak irreverently re the Deity of Messiah.

J.
 
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RedFan

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@Johann, I see Red is willing to accept the development of dogma and stand by it with honesty and integrity—respect! However, the doctrine of the Trinity is nowhere explicitly taught as a set of beliefs in the Word of God. Its development occurred in the philosophical minds of men who aimed to clarify and define the nature of God, often using concepts and language that were influenced by Greek philosophy.
I'm with you on the origins of the doctrine. The march of Christianity outward from Palestine into the Greek world inevitably resulted in a cultural and philosophical disconnect, as tales told and texts written from a Jewish/messianic perspective were being interpreted by men imbued in a Greek philosophical tradition. Those few scattered passages in the emerging NT canon that could arguably be deemed binitarian or (far less frequently) trinitarian yielded no coherent picture of the Son’s participation in the Godhead, and two centuries of patristic thinking were occupied by the effort to weave that idea into a doctrine that was consistent with Scripture. It was thus natural that Greek philosophy, which had long sought to locate an ontological bridge between the One and the Many, between the realm of soul/spirit and the material world, would provide the looms for this tapestry.

Particularly in Alexandria, Christianity was discovering its affinity with middle Platonism and using it as a lens through which to view Christian concepts, furnishing the early church fathers with a template for reworking Jewish monotheism into a trinitarianism that could successfully resist devolving into tritheism. I happen to think the effort was indeed successful.
 

face2face

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Theos is used in the N.T. of the Father, as the revealed God (see Joh_1:1. Act_17:24, &c.)
2. It is used of the Son (Mat_1:23. Joh_1:1; Joh_20:28, &c. Rom_9:5. 2Pe_1:1. 1Jn_5:20). Cp. Col_2:9 and 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4.
3. It is used of the Holy Spirit (Act_5:3-4, compared with v . 4).
4. It is used generically, as in Joh_10:34. Act_12:22. 2Co_4:4. Php_3:19, &c.
5. It is used of false gods, as in Act_7:43, &c.; and is printed "god" as in the O.T.

ii. Cognate with Theos , there are three other words to be noted :
1. Theotes , rendered "Deity", and used of Christ. Occurs only in Col_2:9, and has relation to the Godhead personally ; while
2. Theiotes , rendered "Deity" also, is Deity in the abstract . Occurs only in Rom_1:20.
3. Theios , rendered "Divine", and is used of Christ. Occurs only in 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4; and, with the Article, in Act_17:29, where it is rendered "Godhead". Gr. = that which [is] Divine.

In Scripture-concealed from prying eyes who would speak irreverently re the Deity of Messiah.

J.
This is the forceful approach from one who lacks understanding of God manifestation. I prefer the honest ones who simply state the Trinity cannot be shown from Scripture. At least this is an honest start to the conversation.

F2F
 

face2face

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I'm with you on the origins of the doctrine. The march of Christianity outward from Palestine into the Greek world inevitably resulted in a cultural and philosophical disconnect, as tales told and texts written from a Jewish/messianic perspective were being interpreted by men imbued in a Greek philosophical tradition. Those few scattered passages in the emerging NT canon that could arguably be deemed binitarian or (far less frequently) trinitarian yielded no coherent picture of the Son’s participation in the Godhead, and two centuries of patristic thinking were occupied by the effort to weave that idea into a doctrine that was consistent with Scripture. It was thus natural that Greek philosophy, which had long sought to locate an ontological bridge between the One and the Many, between the realm of soul/spirit and the material world, would provide the looms for this tapestry.

Particularly in Alexandria, Christianity was discovering its affinity with middle Platonism and using it as a lens through which to view Christian concepts, furnishing the early church fathers with a template for reworking Jewish monotheism into a trinitarianism that could successfully resist devolving into tritheism. I happen to think the effort was indeed successful.
Refreshing read...hope Johann can benefit!
F2F
 

ScottA

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From today!


Let’s start discussing.

Father/ Son / Holy Spirit...all 3 are one...Amen or not Amen?

This is very much simpler than many make it out to be.

God has simply shown Himself in multiple ways. An example would be when Jesus was pressed on this subject, He said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9).

The confusion comes when He speaks about Himself in third person...as Jesus did referring to the Holy Spirit whom He would send after returning to the Father.

The simplest example of the truth regarding the Trinity idea, is: Me, Myself, and I. In this way, God simply referred to Himself in third person--just as we often do. Even people can and do refer to themselves as, for example, a son, a father, and a person of title, like Private, or Manager, etc. Unfortunately, what many do not consider with God they are fine to do regarding people. For instance, in telling someone about their managerial duties, it would seem completely normal not to mention the fact that they are also a son or a father, or both.

The scriptural support of this comes by God through the prophet Isaiah, saying that the knowledge that is revealed to us--even about God Himself, comes to us "here a little, there a little" (Isaiah 28:10). Which is to be put together in the end, making true the statement, "the Lord your God, He is the One" (Deuteronomy 31:6). Even so, many do not connect the dots, resulting in all manner of religious nonsense.

Does that mean there is a Trinity? Of course, in a manner of speaking...and then some!
 
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face2face

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Particularly in Alexandria, Christianity was discovering its affinity with middle Platonism and using it as a lens through which to view Christian concepts, furnishing the early church fathers with a template for reworking Jewish monotheism into a trinitarianism that could successfully resist devolving into tritheism. I happen to think the effort was indeed successful.
@Johann, this lens is now in the minds of all those who adopt Trinitarianism. The introduced doctrine shapes how you interpret Scripture. The Apostles didnt give you this lens, but men with reprobate minds. Romans 1:28, where Paul writes, "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient."

It's not just a weak mind Johann, its depraved of God's divine principles of what has already been laid as a foundation of truth from the begining, but now changed to suite that which became church and state. Paganism and Religion have a meeting of minds and what is produced, is sin.

F2F
 

face2face

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Does that mean there is a Trinity? Of course, in a manner of speaking...and then some!
There is truth in this statement, as God is God, and the Holy Spirit is His power, while His only begotten Son is His Son. However, the Holy Spirit, while often personified in Scripture for our benefit, is not a separate person but the power of God at work.
 
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Wrangler

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Scripture is maddeningly equivocal.
Only when you try to force it into false Trinity doctrine is Scripture maddeningly equivocal. Do you find the Gospel equivocal, that Jesus is the son of God, the long awaited Messiah, who died for our sins and was resurrected by his God?

Keep in mind that the most explicit text must supercede text that could be taken as equivocal.
  1. My wife and I don’t live alone.
  2. We have pets.
  3. My wife and I have a white cat and white dog and a black dog.
From this, the ambiguity of statements 1 and 2 must be interpreted via the unequivocal statement 3.
 
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Wrangler

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I'm with you on the origins of the doctrine. The march of Christianity outward from Palestine into the Greek world inevitably resulted in a cultural and philosophical disconnect
Wow Red, rarely have I come across a trinitarian with this perspective. What do you make of trinitarians who deny the evolution of the doctrine?
 
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face2face

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Only when you try to force it into false Trinity doctrine is Scripture maddeningly equivocal. Do you find the Gospel equivocal, that Jesus is the son of God, the long awaited Messiah, who died for our sins and was resurrected by his God?
It's the simplicity of the Gospel that has been perverted, and in doing so, it removes the victory of God through His Son, which is most offensive to Him. This truth will be revealed to Christianity when Christ returns, and the reality of it will confound the so-called wise.

Imagine when its fully known - the Jews crucified their Messiah while the Gentile Converts turned to idols!

F2F
 
J

Johann

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I'm with you on the origins of the doctrine. The march of Christianity outward from Palestine into the Greek world inevitably resulted in a cultural and philosophical disconnect, as tales told and texts written from a Jewish/messianic perspective were being interpreted by men imbued in a Greek philosophical tradition. Those few scattered passages in the emerging NT canon that could arguably be deemed binitarian or (far less frequently) trinitarian yielded no coherent picture of the Son’s participation in the Godhead, and two centuries of patristic thinking were occupied by the effort to weave that idea into a doctrine that was consistent with Scripture. It was thus natural that Greek philosophy, which had long sought to locate an ontological bridge between the One and the Many, between the realm of soul/spirit and the material world, would provide the looms for this tapestry.

Particularly in Alexandria, Christianity was discovering its affinity with middle Platonism and using it as a lens through which to view Christian concepts, furnishing the early church fathers with a template for reworking Jewish monotheism into a trinitarianism that could successfully resist devolving into tritheism. I happen to think the effort was indeed successful.
First, while the cultural and philosophical divergence between Jewish and Greek thought is undeniably important, it is not accurate to suggest that Christianity's theological developments were solely shaped by an external philosophical framework like Platonism. Christianity, from its inception, was rooted in the belief in a unique revelation in Jesus Christ, which was grounded in a Jewish messianic understanding. The doctrines that evolved, including the concept of the Trinity, were not imported wholesale from Greek philosophy, but were primarily attempts to articulate the fullness of the Christian experience and revelation in a way that remained consistent with both the monotheistic heritage of Israel and the tangible, historical revelation of God in Christ.

Second, the claim that the New Testament presents "scattered passages" that can be interpreted as binitarian or trinitarian is problematic. While certain texts in the New Testament can be read in ways that suggest a two- or threefold distinction within the Godhead, the challenge lies not in trying to fit these notions into Greek philosophical molds, but in grappling with the early Christian experience of the risen Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It was not simply a matter of philosophy seeking a coherent framework but an ongoing theological reflection on the significance of the Christ event and the relationship between Father, Son, and Spirit.

Moreover, the assertion that Greek philosophy, particularly Platonism, was the central "lens" for the development of Trinitarian doctrine risks underestimating the role of other intellectual currents, including Jewish apocalyptic traditions and early Christian interpretations of the Old Testament, in shaping early Christian thought. The process of developing the doctrine of the Trinity was less a straightforward alignment with Greek philosophy and more an attempt to synthesize Jewish monotheism with the lived experience of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Finally, while the success of the Patristic project in articulating a doctrine of the Trinity is a matter of historical consensus, the notion that it was a smooth and natural progression should be critically assessed. The development of Trinitarian doctrine involved significant theological debates and controversies—particularly in relation to the Arian controversy—that demonstrated deep internal tensions within the early Church. These tensions indicate that the articulation of the Trinity was not a simple adaptation of Greek thought to Christian faith but rather a complex theological endeavor that sought to preserve the radical distinctiveness of Christian monotheism while recognizing the revealed nature of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Thus, while it is true that Greek philosophical categories, such as those found in middle Platonism, played a role in the formulation of certain theological concepts, the theological endeavor of the early Church was not merely a process of adapting those categories to Christian beliefs. Rather, it was an attempt to faithfully articulate the experience of the Christian community in light of the central claim that God had revealed Himself in Jesus Christ, without compromising the core of Jewish monotheism.

J.
 
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RedFan

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Only when you try to force it into false Trinity doctrine is Scripture maddeningly equivocal. Do you find the Gospel equivocal, that Jesus is the son of God, the long awaited Messiah, who died for our sins and was resurrected by his God?
I don't agree that the Trinity is false doctrine. I just think Scripture is equivocal on the subject. There are passages that can be taken as evidence for, and against, the doctrine. That's all I am saying.

As to Jesus being the Son of God, the long awaited Messiah, who died for our sins and was resurrected -- that stuff I DON'T find equivocal.
 

Wrangler

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I’d like to hear from those who don’t believe that Father/ Son / Holy Spirit .are 3 in one.

Please support your belief using scripture?
One basic problem I’ve found in having this discussion is trinitarians take their doctrine as true by default and have no rejection criteria.

What set of words would qualify as rejecting the claim that the trinity is true? For instance, I already provided the acceptance criteria for me. I’ve found it’s not the Scriptural evidence but the lack of a rejection criteria that causes the conversation to go nowhere.
Evidence1
Not good enough
Evidence2
Not good enough
Evidence3
Not good enough
… repeat to infinity.
 

David in NJ

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Idol worship is prohibited in Scripture:

Deuteronomy 6:4 affirms the oneness of God, saying, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." This underlines the rejection of any worship of idols or false gods.

You should know this J. you are without excuse

F2F
When anyone speaks against Elohim, they are denying the FATHER, the WORD and the HOLY SPIRIT as Declared in Scripture.
 

David in NJ

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One basic problem I’ve found in having this discussion is trinitarians take their doctrine as true by default and have no rejection criteria.

What set of words would qualify as rejecting the claim that the trinity is true? For instance, I already provided the acceptance criteria for me. I’ve found it’s not the Scriptural evidence but the lack of a rejection criteria that causes the conversation to go nowhere.
Evidence1
Not good enough
Evidence2
Not good enough
Evidence3
Not good enough
… repeat to infinity.
Rejection criteria are specific guidelines or rules used to determine whether a sampled lot of products meets the quality standards required for acceptance. These criteria help in making informed decisions about whether to accept or reject a batch based on statistical analysis of sample data.
 

Aunty Jane

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Day one and already four or five pages…..the floodgates are open, but hopefully not to the hotheads.
We are all entitled to believe as we wish, but supplying backup for the things we hold to be true is important.
I like to take the overview, that is, taking all Scripture into consideration when evaluating what is truth and what is an addition to what was written.

If we understand that the confusion over many “Christian” doctrines comes from a situation that Christ himself foretold, we will hopefully become more discerning about what was written….by whom…and when.

Jesus said……in his parable of the “wheat and the weeds”….

”The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

This is one of only a few parables where the disciples asked Jesus to clarify his illustration.

”Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.”

So what were the “weeds” in this illustration? Does it help us to understand the parable better?

It was thought to be a common plant in the Middle East, (called bearded darnel) which in the early growing stage was indistinguishable from wheat. It was even called “wheat’s evil twin” because it was poisonous and because of its similarity at first, was not pulled out in time to preserve the wheat crop.
It was often used to destroy an enemy’s harvest so that it would not be as bountiful. By the time the weeds were obvious, their root systems were so entwined with the wheat it was impossible to uproot them without taking the wheat with them. The farmer had little option but to allow all the plants to grow together until the harvest when the difference would be obvious, and uprooting the weeds did not take the wheat with them. The reapers were instructed to pull out the weeds first and destroy them….then to gather the wheat and bring it into the farmer’s storehouse. It was a time consuming harvest, but at least the wheat was preserved even though the crop may have been reduced. Jesus tells us who the sower is, where he sowed his seeds, and who the reapers are. We are approaching the harvest time right now.

So in this climate of the devil sowing what is essentially a false “Christianity” “while men were sleeping”, indicates that either the early church had fallen into spiritual slumber, or it was the death of the apostles that led the church to foster a bumper crop of weeds ( counterfeit Christians) from that time on.

The devil is a clever deceiver and he had time up his sleeve…..ever so gradually he twisted the truth into falsehood and presented the fake as the real McCoy. Anyone disputing the new and accepted truth was immediately identified as a heretic and dealt with as such.
Christian history is an interesting read when we understand the origins of its many differing beliefs. It’s not hard to do a Google search to find out where most of those beliefs came from.

As far as Christianity goes, the devil has managed to get human beings (created with a spiritual nature) to accept all kinds of doctrinal ideas, but three are actually found in all false worship….yet missing in Jewish monotheism and first century Christianity.

1) Belief in multiple gods, never just one Supreme and Almighty God, like the Jews had. (Deut 6:4)
The Almighty God Yahweh, has no equals, nor does he have three heads. No Jew would have accepted Christ if he claimed to be God…..he never once did. (John 10:31-36 when read in Greek tells the story)
If Jesus had made such a claim, there would not be this ongoing argument. He is what he said he was….”the son of God”.

2) Belief in an immortal soul, when those words are not found side by side in a single passage of Scripture. This is nothing more than the perpetuation of the devil’s first lie…”you surely will not die”. God told Adam that he would return to the dust…nothing more. (Gen 3:19; Ecco 9:5, 10) The dead are not in a conscious condition.

3) Belief in an eternal fiery hell of torture for the wicked…but a heavenly bliss for the good people. This makes God into a sadistic fiend….a loving God would never need to do that to anyone, let alone his own children. There is no justice in it.

In his fake Christianity, the devil planted seeds of all three, which are held to this day. These do not exist in Scripture except by inference and incorrect translation.

So this is the perspective that I come from….
 
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David in NJ

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Day one and already four or five pages…..the floodgates are open, but hopefully not to the hotheads.
We are all entitled to believe as we wish, but supplying backup for the things we hold to be true is important.
I like to take the overview, that is, taking all Scripture into consideration when evaluating what is truth and what is an addition to what was written.

If we understand that the confusion over many “Christian” doctrines comes from a situation that Christ himself foretold, we will hopefully become more discerning about what was written….by whom…and when.

Jesus said……in his parable of the “wheat and the weeds”….

”The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

This is one of only a few parables where the disciples asked Jesus to clarify his illustration.

”Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world.+ As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun+ in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.”

So what were the “weeds” in this illustration? Does it help us to understand the parable better?

It was thought to be a common plant in the Middle East, (called bearded darnel) which in the early growing stage was indistinguishable from wheat. It was even called “wheat’s evil twin” because it was poisonous and because of its similarity at first, was not pulled out in time to preserve the wheat crop.
It was often used to destroy an enemy’s harvest so that it would not be as bountiful. By the time the weeds were obvious, their root systems were so entwined with the wheat it was impossible to uproot them without taking the wheat with them. The farmer had little option but to allow all the plants to grow together until the harvest when the difference would be obvious, and uprooting the weeds did not take the wheat with them. The reapers were instructed to pull out the weeds first and destroy them….then to gather the wheat and bring it into the farmer’s storehouse. It was a time consuming harvest, but at least the wheat was preserved even though the crop may have been reduced. Jesus tells us who the sower is, where he sowed his seeds, and who the reapers are. We are approaching the harvest time right now.

So in this climate of the devil sowing what is essentially a false “Christianity” “while men were sleeping”, indicates that either the early church had fallen into spiritual slumber, or it was the death of the apostles that led the church to foster a bumper crop of weeds ( counterfeit Christians) from that time on.

The devil is a clever deceiver and he had time up his sleeve…..ever so gradually he twisted the truth into falsehood and presented the fake as the real McCoy. Anyone disputing the new and accepted truth was immediately identified as a heretic and dealt with as such.
Christian history is an interesting read when we understand the origins of its many differing beliefs. It’s not hard to do a Google search to find out where most of those beliefs came from.

As far as Christianity goes, the devil has managed to get human beings (created with a spiritual nature) to accept all kinds of doctrinal ideas, but three are actually found in all false worship….yet missing in Jewish monotheism and first century Christianity.

1) Belief in multiple gods, never just one Supreme and Almighty God, like the Jews had. (Deut 6:4)
The Almighty God Yahweh, has no equals, nor does he have three heads. No Jew would have accepted Christ if he claimed to be God…..he never once did. (John 10:31-36 when read in Greek tells the story)
If Jesus had made such a claim, there would not be this ongoing argument. He is what he said he was….”the son of God”.

2) Belief in an immortal soul, when those words are not found side by side in a single passage of Scripture. This is nothing more than the perpetuation of the devil’s first lie…”you surely will not die”. God told Adam that he would return to the dust…nothing more. (Gen 3:19; Ecco 9:5, 10) The dead are not in a conscious condition.

3) Belief in an eternal fiery hell of torture for the wicked…but a heavenly bliss for the good people. This makes God into a sadistic fiend….a loving God would never need to do that to anyone, let alone his own children. There is no justice in it.

In his fake Christianity, the devil planted seeds of all three, which are held to this day. These do not exist in Scripture except by inference and incorrect translation.

So this is the perspective that I come from….
What is the Hebrew word used for 'God' in the Scriptures?
 

face2face

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When anyone speaks against Elohim, they are denying the FATHER, the WORD and the HOLY SPIRIT as Declared in Scripture.
Elohim is a term for God's mighty ones i.e His Angels - not sure where you are going with this...
 
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RLT63

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There is truth in this statement, as God is God, and the Holy Spirit is His power, while His only begotten Son is His Son. However, the Holy Spirit, while often personified in Scripture for our benefit, is not a separate person but the power of God at work.
I don't think your beliefs are as far apart as you make out. Looking at this post your beliefs are not all that different from those who believe in the Trinity. It's trying to define something that we don't understand.
 
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