THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[face2face]

@Johann

A.D. 300 Trinitarian prayers unknown in the Church.

A.D. 325 "Nicene Creed" affirms Christ to be "Very God of Very God".

A.D. 370 Doxology composed: "Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen."

A.D. 381 Council of Constantinople invents "Three persons in One God".

A.D. 388 Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who won't worship the Trinity.

A.D. 519 Doxology ordered to be sung in all the Churches.

A.D. 669 Clergy commanded to commit to memory the "Athanasian Creed" (see below).

A.D. 826 Bishop Basil, required the clergy to repeat the " Athanasian Creed" every Sunday.

 

[RedFan]

Well, I am a Trinitarian, but I have a very different take on this discussion. You won’t find me underscoring supposed proof-texts, because I’m convinced that none truly qualify as “proof.” From the standpoint of word meaning, Scripture is maddeningly equivocal. Arguments over Hebrew words ending in “-im” as establishing plurality; over how kurios or adonai are to be interpreted as a referent; over proper rendering of phrases like theos en ho logos from a language with no indefinite article and which uses case rather than word order to convey meaning – all of these arguments are, in my view, ultimately unpersuasive, and while each of these have their standard bearers, I am convinced that nothing will ever be decided in this way.

Then there is the matter of separating the pre-incarnate Son from the incarnate Jesus, which injects additional ambiguity when, for example, construing gospel passages indicating Jesus’ subservience to the Father – all of which were all uttered during the 30-odd years that Jesus had “emptied himself” of whatever “equality” he may have had with the Father (Philippians 2:7). How much are we to discount those subservience quotes as a result?

And enough ink has been spilled over John’s Prologue – I can add little, other than to point out an exegetical question: given that John was the last to write a (canonical) gospel, are we to understand his Prologue, to quote James J. G. Dunn, “as a variation on an already well formed conception of incarnation or as itself a decisive step forward in the organic growth or evolution of the Christian doctrine.” If the former, it will inevitably cast the incarnation as a refinement of first-century Jewish messianic expectations (which, by the way, come in several flavors), and inform our interpretation of the Prologue.

Bottom line for me: IF Scripture is your only talisman for establishing the validity of the Trinity, I can't add much. But if anyone wants to discuss Trinitarianism as the outgrowth of the early Church’s effort to understand and explain its own experience of the risen Christ in philosophical terms, I am happy to engage with my fellow Early Church Fathers fans and explain why I think they actually got it right!

 

[Johann]

So you can see the change and are happy to adopt those changes in your faith?

You are the one calling me weak minded-I don't feel the need to respond to you.

J.

 

[David in NJ]

I have no problem with being called a weak minded man-I know what stands written.

J.

Hello Brother

 

[face2face]

What is also interesting is the timing and delevopement of this dogma. If we had been alive back then would we have so easily accepted these changes? I think not!

 

[Johann]

@Johann

A.D. 300 Trinitarian prayers unknown in the Church.

A.D. 325 "Nicene Creed" affirms Christ to be "Very God of Very God".

A.D. 370 Doxology composed: "Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen."

A.D. 381 Council of Constantinople invents "Three persons in One God".

A.D. 388 Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who won't worship the Trinity.

A.D. 519 Doxology ordered to be sung in all the Churches.

A.D. 669 Clergy commanded to commit to memory the "Athanasian Creed" (see below).

A.D. 826 Bishop Basil, required the clergy to repeat the " Athanasian Creed" every Sunday.

Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35–108 AD)
“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s dispensation, of the seed of David, but also of the Holy Spirit.” (Letter to the Ephesians, Chapter 18)
Ignatius affirms Jesus Christ as God and mentions the Holy Spirit in unity with God’s dispensation, hinting at a Trinitarian understanding.

2. Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD)
“For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.” (First Apology, Chapter 61)
Justin refers to baptism being administered in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, reflecting the Trinitarian formula from Matthew 28:19.

3. Theophilus of Antioch (c. 120–190 AD)
“The three days which were before the luminaries are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom.” (To Autolycus, Book 2, Chapter 15)
Theophilus uses the term "Trinity" (trias in Greek), explicitly identifying God, His Word (Logos), and His Wisdom (often understood as the Spirit).

4. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202 AD)
“For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things.” (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 20, Section 1)
Irenaeus clearly speaks of the Son and Spirit as eternally existing with the Father, participating in creation.

5. Tertullian (c. 155–220 AD)
“We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...which brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” (Against Praxeas, Chapter 2)
Tertullian gives a detailed explanation of the Trinity, using the term Trinitas in Latin, emphasizing the unity and distinct persons.

6. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD)
“O mystic marvel! The universal Father is one, and one the universal Word, and the Holy Spirit is one and the same everywhere.” (Stromata, Book 5, Chapter 14)
Clement describes the Father, Son (Word), and Holy Spirit as one in essence and universal presence.

7. Origen (c. 185–254 AD)
“We worship one God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. These, by the way, are the three most essential truths concerning the omnipotent God.” (On First Principles, Book 1, Chapter 3)
Origen defends the worship of the triune God and presents the three persons as fundamental truths.

8. Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170–235 AD)
“The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.” (Refutation of All Heresies, Book 10, Chapter 33)
Hippolytus emphasizes the divinity of the Logos (Jesus) in relation to God and mentions the Spirit's participation in the Godhead.

9. Novatian (c. 200–258 AD)
“What then is the Holy Spirit? An essential part of the Godhead, deriving from the Father and the Son.” (On the Trinity, Chapter 16)
Novatian speaks of the Holy Spirit as part of the Godhead, derived from the Father and the Son.

10. Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200–258 AD)
“The Lord said, ‘Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.’” (Epistle 73)
Cyprian echoes the Trinitarian baptismal formula from Matthew 28:19.

Shalom

J.

 

[face2face]

You are the one calling me weak minded-I don't feel the need to respond to you.

J.

Paul uses more colorful terminology for those who distort the truth into a lie. He calls them "those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:18) and warns against those who "distort the gospel of Christ" (Galatians 1:7).

Paul uses the word "accursed" in Galatians 1:8-9, where he says, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!" He repeats this strong statement, emphasizing the seriousness of altering the true gospel.

 

[Johann]

Hello Brother

Hello @David in NJ.

J.

 

[face2face]

Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35–108 AD)
“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s dispensation, of the seed of David, but also of the Holy Spirit.” (Letter to the Ephesians, Chapter 18)
Ignatius affirms Jesus Christ as God and mentions the Holy Spirit in unity with God’s dispensation, hinting at a Trinitarian understanding.

2. Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD)
“For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.” (First Apology, Chapter 61)
Justin refers to baptism being administered in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, reflecting the Trinitarian formula from Matthew 28:19.

3. Theophilus of Antioch (c. 120–190 AD)
“The three days which were before the luminaries are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom.” (To Autolycus, Book 2, Chapter 15)
Theophilus uses the term "Trinity" (trias in Greek), explicitly identifying God, His Word (Logos), and His Wisdom (often understood as the Spirit).

4. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202 AD)
“For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things.” (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 20, Section 1)
Irenaeus clearly speaks of the Son and Spirit as eternally existing with the Father, participating in creation.

5. Tertullian (c. 155–220 AD)
“We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...which brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” (Against Praxeas, Chapter 2)
Tertullian gives a detailed explanation of the Trinity, using the term Trinitas in Latin, emphasizing the unity and distinct persons.

6. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD)
“O mystic marvel! The universal Father is one, and one the universal Word, and the Holy Spirit is one and the same everywhere.” (Stromata, Book 5, Chapter 14)
Clement describes the Father, Son (Word), and Holy Spirit as one in essence and universal presence.

7. Origen (c. 185–254 AD)
“We worship one God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. These, by the way, are the three most essential truths concerning the omnipotent God.” (On First Principles, Book 1, Chapter 3)
Origen defends the worship of the triune God and presents the three persons as fundamental truths.

8. Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170–235 AD)
“The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.” (Refutation of All Heresies, Book 10, Chapter 33)
Hippolytus emphasizes the divinity of the Logos (Jesus) in relation to God and mentions the Spirit's participation in the Godhead.

9. Novatian (c. 200–258 AD)
“What then is the Holy Spirit? An essential part of the Godhead, deriving from the Father and the Son.” (On the Trinity, Chapter 16)
Novatian speaks of the Holy Spirit as part of the Godhead, derived from the Father and the Son.

10. Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200–258 AD)
“The Lord said, ‘Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.’” (Epistle 73)
Cyprian echoes the Trinitarian baptismal formula from Matthew 28:19.

Shalom

J.

As I said, these changes to the orginal Gospel were well under way even at the time of the Apostles. The developement of the apostacy has taken over 2000 years to mature...a tree ready to come down!

 

[Johann]

Paul uses more colorful terminology for those who distort the truth into a lie. He calls them "those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:18) and warns against those who "distort the gospel of Christ" (Galatians 1:7).

Paul uses the word "accursed" in Galatians 1:8-9, where he says, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!" He repeats this strong statement, emphasizing the seriousness of altering the true gospel.

Right-you are going on ignore, I don't need to waste my time with you.

J.

 

[David in NJ]

Well, I am a Trinitarian, but I have a very different take on this discussion. You won’t find me underscoring supposed proof-texts, because I’m convinced that none truly qualify as “proof.” From the standpoint of word meaning, Scripture is maddeningly equivocal. Arguments over Hebrew words ending in “-im” as establishing plurality; over how kurios or adonai are to be interpreted as a referent; over proper rendering of phrases like theos en ho logos from a language with no indefinite article and which uses case rather than word order to convey meaning – all of these arguments are, in my view, ultimately unpersuasive, and while each of these have their standard bearers, I am convinced that nothing will ever be decided in this way.

Then there is the matter of separating the pre-incarnate Son from the incarnate Jesus, which injects additional ambiguity when, for example, construing gospel passages indicating Jesus’ subservience to the Father – all of which were all uttered during the 30-odd years that Jesus had “emptied himself” of whatever “equality” he may have had with the Father (Philippians 2:7). How much are we to discount those subservience quotes as a result?

And enough ink has been spilled over John’s Prologue – I can add little, other than to point out an exegetical question: given that John was the last to write a (canonical) gospel, are we to understand his Prologue, to quote James J. G. Dunn, “as a variation on an already well formed conception of incarnation or as itself a decisive step forward in the organic growth or evolution of the Christian doctrine.” If the former, it will inevitably cast the incarnation as a refinement of first-century Jewish messianic expectations (which, by the way, come in several flavors), and inform our interpretation of the Prologue.

Bottom line for me: IF Scripture is your only talisman for establishing the validity of the Trinity, I can't add much. But if anyone wants to discuss Trinitarianism as the outgrowth of the early Church’s effort to understand and explain its own experience of the risen Christ in philosophical terms, I am happy to engage with my fellow Early Church Fathers fans and explain why I think they actually got it right!

i liked your post here and it gives clear understanding to your position

Be very CAREFUL of placing too much trust in either your own intellect or that of others, for human intellect is very weak and cannot ascend to God apart from His Grace.

1 Corinthians 1:20-25
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

SHALOM

 

[face2face]

Right-you are going on ignore, I don't need to waste my time with you.

J.

My take on this is the Apostle Paul would also be placed on ignore by many in this forum. Can you imagine that J?

 

[RedFan]

i liked your post here and it gives clear understanding to your position

Be very CAREFUL of placing too much trust in either your own intellect or that of others, for human intellect is very weak and cannot ascend to God apart from His Grace.

1 Corinthians 1:20-25
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

SHALOM

Thanks. Fair point.

 

[face2face]

Bottom line for me: IF Scripture is your only talisman for establishing the validity of the Trinity, I can't add much. But if anyone wants to discuss Trinitarianism as the outgrowth of the early Church’s effort to understand and explain its own experience of the risen Christ in philosophical terms, I am happy to engage with my fellow Early Church Fathers fans and explain why I think they actually got it right!

@Johann, I see Red is willing to accept the development of dogma and stand by it with honesty and integrity—respect! However, the doctrine of the Trinity is nowhere explicitly taught as a set of beliefs in the Word of God. Its development occurred in the philosophical minds of men who aimed to clarify and define the nature of God, often using concepts and language that were influenced by Greek philosophy.

To accept this is a good foundation from which the Original Gospel can be known.

F2F

 

[Johann]

@Johann, I see Red is willing to accept the development of dogma and stand by it with honesty and integrity—respect! However, the doctrine of the Trinity is nowhere explicitly taught as a set of beliefs in the Word of God. Its development occurred in the philosophical minds of men who aimed to clarify and define the nature of God, often using concepts and language that were influenced by Greek philosophy.

To accept this is a good foundation from which the Original Gospel can be known.

F2F

You don't show respect at all and are intellectually dishonest.

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

Be very CAREFUL of placing too much trust in either your own intellect or that of others, for human intellect is very weak and cannot ascend to God apart from His Grace.

Give God all the Glory, we are nothing and know nothing , without him guiding us and bringing us to understanding his truth in our spirit.

Praise God for that honour and privilege.

 

[David in NJ]

Give God all the Glory, we are nothing and know nothing , without him guiding us and bringing us to understanding his truth in our spirit.

Praise God for that honour and privilege.

Thank you for these encouraging words.
They are indeed encouraging for what you said is Truth that sets us Free from pride and self.

SHALOM

 

[face2face]

You don't show respect at all and are intellectually dishonest.

J.

No respect for the Trinity! It destroyed the beauty of the original Gospel.

 

[Johann]

No respect for the Trinity! It destroyed the beauty of the original Gospel.

I have the utmost respect for the Triune Godhead and Deity of Christ Jesus.

J.

 

[face2face]

I have the utmost respect for the Triune Godhead and Deity of Christ Jesus.

J.

Idol worship is prohibited in Scripture:

Deuteronomy 6:4 affirms the oneness of God, saying, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." This underlines the rejection of any worship of idols or false gods.

You should know this J. you are without excuse

F2F