The social gospel?

[Behold]

It is a very clever ploy to get Jesus to die....

You say that the Love of God, that sacrificed Jesus on the Cross for the sin of us all... because "God so loved the world that He Gave His only begotten".

This LOVE OF GOD... you just spit on it, by defining it as a "clever ploy", as if Jesus was tricked into it..... as if God is some cunning deceiver Who fooled His Son, into dying on the Cross.

Ive heard this very teaching in a Song... its the "Aria", that "jesus" sings, in "Jesus Christ Superstar".. He is upset because he feels sort of conned, sort of fooled, into going to the Cross, and finally sings... ""so, we better get to it before i change my mind".

Your Religion, and your Theology, is just so insulting to the Cross of Christ and the Grace of God. @Episkopos

 

[Johann]

Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify (not forgive) the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Heb. 13:12

You know the saying @Episkopos -context. You have a twisted view on the atonement of Christ Jesus-
Sanctification: This is the process of being made holy or set apart for God. It involves a transformation of the believer's nature and behavior to align more closely with God's will. Sanctification is often viewed as both an instantaneous event (positional sanctification) and a progressive process (progressive sanctification).

Forgiveness: This is the act of pardoning someone's sins or transgressions. In Christian theology, forgiveness of sins is granted by God through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, removing the penalty of sin.

The Role of Jesus' Blood
Sanctification through Jesus' Blood: Hebrews 13:12 specifically mentions that Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood. This indicates that through His sacrificial death, believers are made holy and set apart for God. The shedding of Jesus' blood is seen as the means by which sanctification is achieved.

Forgiveness through Jesus' Blood: While Hebrews 13:12 focuses on sanctification, other passages emphasize that Jesus' blood also provides forgiveness of sins. For example, Ephesians 1:7 states, "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace." This shows that Jesus' sacrifice accomplishes both sanctification and forgiveness.

Contextual Analysis of the Statement
Jesus Sanctifies with His Blood, Not Forgives:

Correct Understanding: It's essential to recognize that Jesus' blood accomplishes both sanctification and forgiveness. Hebrews 13:12 highlights sanctification, but other passages (e.g., Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14) emphasize forgiveness.
Correction: "Jesus sanctifies with His blood and also forgives through His sacrifice."
Jesus is Inherently Merciful, and God has Always Been Merciful:

Correct Understanding: This statement correctly acknowledges the nature of Jesus and God. God's mercy is a consistent attribute throughout the Bible. For example, Psalm 103:8 states, "The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love."
Clarification: "Jesus is inherently merciful, and God has always been merciful."
Full Corrected and Contextualized Statement
Jesus sanctifies with His blood and also forgives through His sacrifice. Jesus is inherently merciful, and God has always been merciful.

"Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate" (Hebrews 13:12).

Theological Context
Sanctification: The process of being set apart for God, made holy through the sacrifice of Jesus. Hebrews 13:12 emphasizes this aspect, showing the comprehensive work of Christ in making believers holy.
Forgiveness: The act of pardoning sins, which is also achieved through Jesus' sacrifice. This is a foundational element of Christian doctrine, highlighted in passages like Ephesians 1:7 and 1 John 1:7.
Mercy of God: Both the Old and New Testaments consistently present God as merciful. Jesus' ministry and sacrifice are profound expressions of this divine mercy.
Scriptural Harmony
Hebrews 13:12: Focuses on sanctification through Jesus' blood.
Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14: Highlight forgiveness through Jesus' blood.
Psalm 103:8: Illustrates God's enduring mercy.
By understanding the complementary nature of sanctification and forgiveness, we see that Jesus' sacrificial work on the cross encompasses both aspects, reflecting the depth of God's mercy and grace towards humanity.

You are going to have to own up to your error.

 

[Episkopos]

You have people saved in sin, You have them saved while still under the penalty of sin.

Backwards. You can't have holiness while in the POWER of sin. Sin always separates us from God. So grace is given to us to stop sinning.

God doesn't change the nature of sin for certain people. Sin is sin. Grace is God's power over sin given to those who believe.

You can’t be holy while still under the penalty of sin.

The power of sin is defeated at the cross...not the penalty. Is the cross an instrument of mercy or death?

Blinders?

He tacked the penalty of sin. So he could restore us to him, And in doing so removed the power of sin.

If yur sin is not covered, Your still dead.

Jesus didn't die to cover up our sin but to kill it on his cross. Those who die with Him are raised to new life in holiness.
The rest of your tirade I deleted as you condemn yourself with it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Backwards. You can't have holiness while in the POWER of sin. Sin always separates us from God. So grace is given to us to stop sinning.

No.

You have people saved while still under the penalty of sin, because yu reject substitution and forgiveness.

You can’t take it back now.. if has been exposed

God doesn't change the nature of sin for certain people. Sin is sin. Grace is God's power over sin given to those who believe.

Grace is Gods mercy at Christ’s expense. God does not just set aside the penalty of sin and say its ok, I forgive you.

With out the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. Thats the purpose and meaning of the cross. Which you deny

The power of sin is defeated at the cross...not the penalty. Is the cross an instrument of mercy or death?

Yes. I agree

But more importantly the penalty of sin (which seperates us from God) was defeated at the cross.

It is this grace and freedom from the penalty of sin which empowers us and gives us the freedom to overcome the power of sin.

Jesus didn't die to cover up our sin but to kill it on his cross.

Yes he did, That is what the law showed. The blood covered the ark of the covenant, and in turn covered our sin. If it killed sin as you say, it failed. Because sin is still rampant on earth. Even Gods people still chose to serve self at times over God.. so Jesus died for nothing (in your view)

Those who die with Him are raised to new life in holiness.

Yes, I died with him, having been buried with him in baptism (of the spirit)

Because he died.

The rest of your tirade I deleted as you condemn yourself with it.

Condemn myself?

lol. See @Nancy We condemn ourself because we believe the cross is about forgiveness

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I wrote a post then deleted it. Just saying incase you saw it before I deleted it. I still don’t understand the strutting around like a peacock. It sure does make it hard because I wonder where it’s coming from. Like are you puffed up and high on yourself like others say, or are you a big jokester whose true intent is to spur people into considering what they religiously hold to for their own benefit?

He has been like this since I first met him years ago

Actually I’m not that offended by your comment about the cross and forgiveness. I don’t know how to put it into words but I hear people ask why did Jesus have to die? My answer has become to show the way. The way of moving from darkness into Light. He was crucified to put off that old man but that He taught of movement from Pharisees and religious leaders way of thinking (mans way of ruling even out in the world where the rich consumes the poor) …His revealing a path to …teaching, being an example of the way to the Father in putting on compassionate bowels of mercy where all the attributes are given of new ways of dealing out unto others. Maybe that doesn’t make sense. But I wouldn’t say He died so much to forgive me but more to “show” me to “reveal” a way by being The example (to follow) of that way. I say that because He showed a way never seen before, foreign and if anything a way this world says will lead straight to death, being the wrong way according to the world because it goes against all held dear of this world. So much so, that way He showed is mocked as …fictitious dreaming.

But what about the penalty of death?

In a court of law. The offender who is guilty has to pay his debt

In the court of the heavenly law. All have sinned and fall short of the glory. No one has kept the law. Which was to prove to us our sin debt and to show us how to be reconciled to God (blood had to be shed)

how can we be restored. While still under the penalty of sin

look at it this way, Each sin comes attached with a death penalty. How many sins has each of us commited in our lifetime. Now imagine each of those sins holds a death penalty.

And God is just going to forgive us, But not others? When they are just as guilty (one issue) but not only this, this penalty does not have to be served? (Remember, God is a holy and righteous judge, He can not go back on his own verdict of guilty fot every one of us

i think of Adam and Eve in the garden when they sinned and hid themselves in the darkness. God already desired mercy and not sacrifice for them to step out of the darkness into the light …

Yet God killed an animal (the first death in all human history. Imagine the Hoover on adam and eves face when God slaughtered the innocent animal. To cloth them, so he could send them out into the light.

it was them who choose not to believing another voice instead that God is not good. Jesus model the way of, step out of the darkness into the Light. I might get shot…I don’t agree with all of your post but I do think …if others ask me “why did Jesus have to die?” I don’t think my first answer is “forgiveness” but instead, To me…because He is was teaching, showing, modeling the better way which is an active “Living” walk He showed…not a one time word “forgiven” and nothing is taught. Even…if you be taught of God that you ought to love one another.I just asked my husband to. “What do you think the cross is about?” Forgiveness or a way?
He said, “it is about a passage”.

Again, Then how is the penalty of sin paid.

If a Judge gives you a sentence of death, because your guilty and the law demands that penalty.

then that penalty is sure and must be made to pay for the crime you commited.

if not. The judge himself is not following the law. And he is not a righteous judge (which is why human courts are so flawed and why people get away with stuff all the time)

 

[Episkopos]

No.

You have people saved while still under the penalty of sin, because yu reject substitution and forgiveness.

You can’t take it back now.. if has been exposed

Grace is Gods mercy at Christ’s expense. God does not just set aside the penalty of sin and say its ok, I forgive you.

With out the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. Thats the purpose and meaning of the cross. Which you deny

Yes. I agree

But more importantly the penalty of sin (which seperates us from God) was defeated at the cross.

It is this grace and freedom from the penalty of sin which empowers us and gives us the freedom to overcome the power of sin.



Yes he did, That is what the law showed. The blood covered the ark of the covenant, and in turn covered our sin. If it killed sin as you say, it failed. Because sin is still rampant on earth. Even Gods people still chose to serve self at times over God.. so Jesus died for nothing (in your view)

Yes, I died with him, having been buried with him in baptism (of the spirit)

Because he died.

Condemn myself?

lol. See @Nancy We condemn ourself because we believe the cross is about forgiveness

You have to lie. Your condemnation is that you say I blaspheme...when I speak the truth...therefore you have stated your own verdict.

 

[Behold]

The power of sin is defeated at the cross...not the penalty.

Jesus bore the judgement for sin , that is the eternal penalty.

When Jesus said "let this Cup pass from me", He was referencing the understanding that God's wrath against the sin of the world was going to be poured out on Him, on The Cross.

The Cross of Christ is where the payment for sin, that is the redemption of sin, removes the eternal penalty that is God's Wrath against sin...

So, everyone who has come to the Cross, giving God their Faith in Christ is FORGIVEN, Justified, and Redeemed, from their sin, and from the Eternal Judgment of God.

Welcome to : Salvation.

Its a eternal "GIFT".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You know the saying @Episkopos -context. You have a twisted view on the atonement of Christ Jesus-
Sanctification: This is the process of being made holy or set apart for God. It involves a transformation of the believer's nature and behavior to align more closely with God's will. Sanctification is often viewed as both an instantaneous event (positional sanctification) and a progressive process (progressive sanctification).

Forgiveness: This is the act of pardoning someone's sins or transgressions. In Christian theology, forgiveness of sins is granted by God through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, removing the penalty of sin.

The Role of Jesus' Blood
Sanctification through Jesus' Blood: Hebrews 13:12 specifically mentions that Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood. This indicates that through His sacrificial death, believers are made holy and set apart for God. The shedding of Jesus' blood is seen as the means by which sanctification is achieved.

Forgiveness through Jesus' Blood: While Hebrews 13:12 focuses on sanctification, other passages emphasize that Jesus' blood also provides forgiveness of sins. For example, Ephesians 1:7 states, "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace." This shows that Jesus' sacrifice accomplishes both sanctification and forgiveness.

Contextual Analysis of the Statement
Jesus Sanctifies with His Blood, Not Forgives:

Correct Understanding: It's essential to recognize that Jesus' blood accomplishes both sanctification and forgiveness. Hebrews 13:12 highlights sanctification, but other passages (e.g., Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14) emphasize forgiveness.
Correction: "Jesus sanctifies with His blood and also forgives through His sacrifice."
Jesus is Inherently Merciful, and God has Always Been Merciful:

Correct Understanding: This statement correctly acknowledges the nature of Jesus and God. God's mercy is a consistent attribute throughout the Bible. For example, Psalm 103:8 states, "The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love."
Clarification: "Jesus is inherently merciful, and God has always been merciful."
Full Corrected and Contextualized Statement
Jesus sanctifies with His blood and also forgives through His sacrifice. Jesus is inherently merciful, and God has always been merciful.

"Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate" (Hebrews 13:12).

Theological Context
Sanctification: The process of being set apart for God, made holy through the sacrifice of Jesus. Hebrews 13:12 emphasizes this aspect, showing the comprehensive work of Christ in making believers holy.
Forgiveness: The act of pardoning sins, which is also achieved through Jesus' sacrifice. This is a foundational element of Christian doctrine, highlighted in passages like Ephesians 1:7 and 1 John 1:7.
Mercy of God: Both the Old and New Testaments consistently present God as merciful. Jesus' ministry and sacrifice are profound expressions of this divine mercy.
Scriptural Harmony
Hebrews 13:12: Focuses on sanctification through Jesus' blood.
Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14: Highlight forgiveness through Jesus' blood.
Psalm 103:8: Illustrates God's enduring mercy.
By understanding the complementary nature of sanctification and forgiveness, we see that Jesus' sacrificial work on the cross encompasses both aspects, reflecting the depth of God's mercy and grace towards humanity.

You are going to have to own up to your error.

Yes like so many caught under the problem of legalism,

they make justification dependent on sanctification.

if we are good enough, have no sin, or walk like Jesus, we are justified. if not, we are not justified.

it puts all the focus on self. And totally removes the focus off God and the death he died to restor his creation to himself.

 

[Behold]

You have to lie. Your condemnation is that you say I blaspheme...when I speak the truth...therefore you have stated your own verdict.

You lie about The Cross, every time you have stated that "The Cross is not about Forgiveness".

You, have stated that Jesus is : "Whipping boy".. so, do you think you have found forgiveness for that extreme (public) insult against Jesus, Himself, yet? @Episkopos

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You have to lie. Your condemnation is that you say I blaspheme...when I speak the truth...therefore you have stated your own verdict.

But you do not state the truth

1. You state the cross is not about forgiveness (blasphemy)
2. You state the power of sin, not the penalty of sin, is defeated at the cross (blasphemy)
3. You say jesus did not die to cover (redeem or atone) us from our sin, but to kill it. (But in your own words, you still sin which amazes me that you admit you have not even achieved your own salvation) Blasphemy

You have exposed yourself. Not only to the room. But now to the mods..

 

[Johann]

But you do not state the truth

1. You state the cross is not about forgiveness (blasphemy)
2. You state the power of sin, not the penalty of sin, is defeated at the cross (blasphemy)
3. You say jesus did not die to cover (redeem or atone) us from our sin, but to kill it. (But in your own words, you still sin which amazes me that you admit you have not even achieved your own salvation) Blasphemy

You have exposed yourself. Not only to the room. But now to the mods..

Makes me wonder why he is not repentant.

 

[Lizbeth]

Here is the Father's Will, so that we can enter Heaven, and become a born again Christian.

"All that believe in Jesus, shall be saved"
"All that call on the name of the Lord, shall be saved"

"The will of God is that you believe in Jesus, whom God sent".

And after a person has become a Christian ,then the person can get busy... doing all those works and carrying that Cross, and denying yourself..

The problem, that many have, is that they connect those as How to be saved, instead of understanding that the works part of Christianity, is not the part that God accepts to cause you to become a Christian, or to Remain A Born Again Christian.

The WORKS, the LIFESTYLE, the Discipleship, ... we do this because we have been born again... ALREADY.

We dont do the works to try to BECOME the Christian, or to try to REMAIN a Christian.

We do the works because they are what happens because we are already a Christian.

Think you are thinking too hard about it.....just believe the word with your heart brother. We dont' have to understand it with our natural minds to believe and obey it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Makes me wonder why he is not repentant.

when you do not think you are in need of repentance or forgiveness that is what happens. its why the pharisees sent christ to the cross. He called out there sin also.

As jesus said, he came to call the sinner to repentance, the righteous (those who think they are righteous) does not need him.. so they will not come to him

 

[Behold]

Think you are thinking too hard about it.....just believe the word with your heart brother. We dont' have to understand it with our natural minds to believe and obey it.

Salvation puts us into the family of God. ... "in Christ"... It births us into the Kingdom of God, as "one with God".

And from there, now having Salvation, (Eternal life) we are to "work out our salvation"

WE already have it, as Jesus is Salvation, and He is in us, if we are born again...so, we HAVE Salvation.

So, now Having it, we are to "work it out"...........and that does not mean.. "try not to lose it"... It means that we are to come into the "knowledge of God", regarding How HE SEES us, as a "new Creation" in Christ".

= "working out our salvation" is not to try to do works.........its to understand exactly How God understands who the born again have become "in Christ".

Welcome to "Paul's Doctrine" as He is the one who teaches us how to understand, WHO, we have BECOME>.. "In Christ".

 

[Episkopos]

Salvation puts us into the family of God. ... "in Christ"... It births us into the Kingdom of God, as "one with God".

And from there, now having Salvation, (Eternal life) we are to "work out our salvation"

WE already have it, as Jesus is Salvation, and He is in us, if we are born again...so, we HAVE Salvation.

So, now Having it, we are to "work it out"...........and that does not mean.. "try not to lose it"... It means that we are to come into the "knowledge of God", regarding How HE SEES us, as a "new Creation" in Christ".

= "working out our salvation" is not to try to do works.........its to understand exactly How God understands who the born again have become "in Christ".

Welcome to "Paul's Doctrine" as He is the one who teaches us how to understand, WHO, we have BECOME>.. "In Christ".

Your religious outer man is freaking out in self-justification survival mode. And other deceived ones here will tell you...relax relax...just don't let the truth sink into the inner man. Be confident with religious certainties that your indoctrination doesn't come from the nether regions. Keep trusting in men. Trust in the majority.

Keep ignoring the truth...and not responding with honesty or truthfulness. And think that I'm the one in trouble.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your religious outer man is freaking out in self-justification survival mode. And other deceived ones here will tell you...relax relax...just don't let the truth sink into the inner man. Be confident with religious certain that your indoctrination doesn't come from the nether regions.

Once again, Why do you do this. You’re the one trying to justify yourself. Not us.

Keep ignoring the truth...and not responding with honesty or truthfulness. And think that I'm the one in trouble.

I would say the same to you.. But it will not help in the conversation. So would just say lets show some humility

 

[Behold]

The mob wants to rule by their own designs.

Your post.... just defined your own Theology, as what you try to sell as = YOUR Agenda,, YOUR concepts ....that deny that "The Cross of Christ is about Forgiveness".

Listen..
The Cross of Christ is why God forgives our sin......and you have denied this many times now.

Matthew 26:28 This is my BLOOD which is the new covenant that God makes with his people. This, my BLOOD is poured out for many to FORGIVE their sins."..

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the FORGIVENESS of sins. New Living Translation for this is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice to forgive the sins of many. English Standard Version for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the FORGIVENESS of sins. Berean Standard Bible This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Berean Literal Bible For this is My blood of the covenant, being poured out for many, for forgiveness of sins. New American Standard Bible for this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for FORGIVENESS of sins. NASB 1995 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. NASB 1977 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. Legacy Standard Bible for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for FORGIVENESS of sins. Christian Standard Bible For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Holman Christian Standard Bible For this is My blood that establishes the covenant; it is shed for many for the FORGIVENESS of sins. American Standard Version for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins. Contemporary English Version This is my blood, and with it God makes his agreement with you. It will be poured out, so that many people will have their sins FORGIVEN.

 

[Lizbeth]

Seems like with some people it's always a case of either/or.............either God is merciful, or He is wrathful. Either the cross is about forgiveness or it's about holiness. Why is it so hard for some to grasp that the answer isn't always a case of one or the other, but both? There is both the goodness as well as the severity of God. And the cross of Christ has accomplished a number of things we could say, not just one.

 

[Episkopos]

Who wants to go on the record to say that without the cross God hated us...never forgave us and had wrathful intent for us? Who wants to state that Jesus had to die to make His Father love us and forgive us?

Who is honest with following through with their religious scheme that insults God?

 

[Behold]

Your religious outer man is freaking out in self-justification survival mode

You are the self proclaimed calvinist <> law keeper... @Episkopos .

As for me, im born again, and that is because God has justified me, based on the Cross of Christ.. through my Faith in Jesus.

My sins are forgiven, and the Blood of Jesus is the forgiveness.......God gave me, when i gave God my faith in Christ.

This is why i have been given "the Gift of Righteousness" and "the Gift of Eternal life".