the return of Jesus Christ .... I see two phases

[dadman]

amen ..... and the word WAS God

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yeah, I really don't have all the time in the world to deal with JWs and their false doctrines
I'll leave this thread with someone who does, btw: rwb .... good job ...
Matt Slick, I believe has all the scoop concerning this cult masquerading as Christian
I really don't plan to throw any more 'fodder' at them ......... later folks

I hope you understand that the Pharisees “had the scoop” on Jesus as a ‘cult’ leader of his time, accusing (and later charging) him with blasphemy for even suggesting that God was his Father, and they persecuted and decried the Christians relentlessly....could it happen again? Jesus said it would....”wheat and weeds” would be “growing together” in “the world” right up till the “harvest” time......he said that the devil would sow these “weeds” (counterfeit Christianity) “while men were sleeping”.....what picture does this illustration convey?

If we cannot discern the difference between a flawed counterfeit majority and a genuine Christian minority (which would be a replica of the first century situation of Pharisaic Jews verses Christ’s disciples) then we are participating in a repeat of what happened back then. The devil has no new tricks....so are you yourself a victim? Ask yourself why “few” are found on the road to life, whilst the “many” are oblivious to the fact that they are travelling happily on the road to destruction. (Matt 7:13-14)

I know why you are running away.....you have no real answers to any of my questions because you never ask them yourself. I did, and that’s why I know what I believe and why I believe it......do you? Who are you listening to? How much trust can you put in your own teachers who have been promoting religious falsehoods for centuries....you know the old saying....”tell a lie often enough and it eventually becomes truth to those who believe it”.

We are all going to stand before the same judge......won’t it be interesting to see who is left offering Jesus their excuses...? (Matt 7:21-23)

 

[Davy]

All thanks be Unto The Great God And Saviour, The LORD Jesus Christ, for all the prayer warriors,
who refrain from these discouraging threads ( which forget the 'trinity/deity" discussion ban ),

but, we still believe in God's:

Grace, Peace, Mercy, And JOY!

Amen.

What? There is NO BAN on discussing the FACT that God's Word and Jesus Christ Himself declared that He is GOD.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is a lot to respond to, so I'll break it up...

What is the great commission JW's take so seriously? The good news of the Kingdom of God is found in Christ alone, and the only entrance into the Kingdom is to be born again of the Holy Spirit. But we only access new birth by believing that Christ is God! Because God only gives new birth according to grace through faith.

You seriously have to ask about “the great commission”? (Matt 28:19-20)

I asked you what the kingdom of God actually is? What is it’s purpose? And what will it accomplish in accord with God’s will?
Can you answer that first, because everything we are as “Christians” depends on this knowledge. Define what God’s Kingdom” is, because if you don’t know exactly what that Kingdom is, and what it will accomplish, then you have no good news to tell anyone. You cannot engage in "the great commission" because you have no knowledge about it. You cannot make disciples and educate them if you yourself have no real idea of what the Kingdom is. Do you understand this simple fact?

How does one “enter the kingdom of God”? What is the purpose of their entry? And what does it mean in real terms to be “born again”? Where does it say in any scripture that being “born again” requires belief that Jesus is God?
What exactly is “grace through faith”....you see, people use these terms without any real knowledge about what they mean scripturally.

Since JW's deny that Christ is God, they have NOT His Spirit, have NOT been born again. Apparently, someone has told JW's that they can be "sheep" without God, but as you rightly say Jesus will say to them "I NEVER knew you."

What if that is you? How do you know that you are "born again"...what does that even mean? What is the purpose of being "born again"?

JW's will no doubt be shocked to hear, how all their good deeds, outward works of righteousness has NOT earned them the everlasting life they thought their good deeds would earn them.

Did you not read James 2:14-19...
"What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."

You also seem to have no comprehension of the ransom and why Christ is called the Redeemer.....?
If he was God, then the ransom wouldn’t have been paid at all.
Jesus was called “the last Adam” because he cancelled out the first “Adam’s” sin. (Romans 5:19) Do you know why he is called this?

God’s law demanded “a life for a life”.....if someone caused the death of another, no matter how many lives he took, he would pay with his own life. Jesus had to be the exact equal of Adam in order to cancel the debt Adam left to his children. This meant that he had to be 100% mortal human, otherwise it contravenes God’s perfect justice. An immortal God cannot die....and an immortal cannot pay for what a mortal did.

If God is immortal, then Jesus cannot be God...he can be 'divine' and have 'divine authorization' (which is what “theos” means in Greek) but he could not be God incarnate because Jesus was mortal and he died.

How can Christ be your Saviour (notice out of respect for the Almighty the capital S?) if He is not God come in the flesh? If Christ is not God incarnate, He is only human, where does the Word of God (not the NWT) say you can be saved by a human being? The true Word of God, which the NWT is NOT, never denies the deity of Christ. Even the Jews in unbelief realized that Christ claimed to be God, and for that reason they wanted to stone Him.

Christ had a pre-human existence as God’s “firstborn”....he became the man Jesus only after his human birth. He said he had “come down from heaven” and that he was “from the realms above” so we have no issue with Jesus as God’s “only begotten son” but in what sense is he “only begotten”? He was not the only “son of God” spoken about in scripture....the angels are also called “sons of God” and Adam was also. (Luke 3:38)
You seem to freely use terminology that you have never personally researched. Words in Greek that many take for granted when someone has told them what they mean....yet you trust the authors of an apostate church system to tell you the truth.....when they never have.
Just like the first century situation....it was the hated minority who were trying to rescue the indoctrinated Jews from their apostate religious system....one that had been festering undirected by God for hundreds of years. By the time Jesus arrived, Judaism was unrecognizable because their man-made traditions had replaced God's word as their guide. (Matt 15:7-9)

Look up the word “savior” and see that others are called “saviors” in the Bible as well. (Judges 3:9, 15) When God says he is the Savior and he sends his representative to the earth to redeem mankind, both then become saviors, because the one who sends the savior, is also a savior. You seem to think that certain words only mean one thing, but they don’t, and unless you research what you have been taught, you will go on believing the old lies.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I and my Father are one.

LOL....and you think that means...what?
"I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one." (John 17:21-22)

Are these disciples also part of the godhead? Or is Jesus talking about unity of thought and purpose?

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Have you ever read this passage in Greek....if you have, you will see what the English translators omitted....
In context this reads......in modern English.....
“The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
The Father of Jesus is also "our Father"....isn't that what the words of the Lord's Prayer begin with?

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; . . . “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” [theos] Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”[theos]’? If he called them gods, [theos] to whom the word of God [ho theos]came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? [ho theos] (NASB)

Now don’t read over the words but carefully see what this passage is saying....please identify "theos" [a god] from "ho theos" [the God].....a very small word (ho) but it is extremely important because it differentiates God Jehovah from all others who can qualify to be called "theos" (gods).
If Jehovah himself can call the judges in Israel "gods" because of their divine authority, then we need to examine the words carefully and see what they are really saying, not what we want them to say.

John 14:9 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

"Like father, like son"......who taught the son all he knows? His Father is also his God. (John 20:17)...even in heaven. (Rev 3:14)

2 John 7-11 (KJV) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

And the highlighted portion of that verse speaks of "not bringing this doctrine"....so what "doctrine" is this speaking about? Would you know the truth if you heard it now, so long removed from when that was written, and knowing that Jesus himself foretold that an apostasy would overtake Christianity? If the 'doctrine' it speaks about is not the doctrine you have come to accept, does that mean that your own doctrine could be the wrong one? According to Paul, the apostasy was "already at work" in his day....so how old is it exactly?

2 Thess 2:3-12....(NASB)
"Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure . . . . . No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction . . . .And you know what restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. . . . Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."

Read that carefully....who are the "deluded" ones whom God will not correct? Those who have fallen for satan's deceptions, which go all the way back to the first century. So, don't be smug in your assumption that the majority who identify as "Christians" today will be saved....because the scriptures indicate otherwise. Satan will even provide the odd miracle to convince the ignorant that they have the truth, when they are far from it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Can you read? Collectively, all of the apostles are affirming that their "one God" is "the Father”.....AND that their "one Lord" is “Jesus Christ"
Anything that contradicts that plain statement is a lie.

John 1:1-4 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Read it in Greek.....there are two "gods" mentioned in John 1:1. One God is "Ho Theos" (Jehovah) and one is just "theos". The differentiation made with that little word (ho) in Greek changes the whole meaning of that verse.
If the divine name had still been in use in the first century, it would have read more accurately......
'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Jehovah, and the Word was divine'.

John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Yes...it was "the Word" who "became flesh" not Jehovah. The Word was "the only begotten son" of his Father. Those who are "begotten" need a 'begetter' who lived before them and who caused their existence. Why else would we see God and Jesus called "Father" and "son". The son was "begotten" long before his human birth. Colossians 1:15-17 declares that Jesus is "the firstborn of ALL creation".
At Rev 3:14 Jesus calls himself "the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God".(KJV)

According to JW's it would be better to link our hearts and minds to a SECT - a group of people with somewhat different religious beliefs from those of a larger group to which they belong.

Just as those in the first century did......it meant separating themselves from a corrupt religious system that denied Christ in the worst way.
The first Christians had "somewhat different religious beliefs" to the mainstream Jews back then too....they exposed the Jewish leaders for what they were...hypocritical frauds....bound for gehenna. (Matt 23:33) History is repeating....

You say "I went on a mission to find God", and you think because JW's were outwardly very loving in your time of need, that you found Him? It seems you may be like those who study and are always learning, but you lack knowledge of the truth. Truth of God cannot be found apart from the Spirit of Christ in you. And you cannot have the Spirit of Christ that comes from God in you, when you deny Christ is God Almighty come in the flesh.
It had little to do with being "love bombed" as the saying goes....it was their beliefs, firmly grounded in scripture that attracted me....the love they show for one another is just icing on the cake. You don't seem to be able to see past your own prejudices because we have the true spirit of Christ in our ranks and the unity we enjoy in a global brotherhood is unmatched by any other religious body.
The identifying marks of a true Christian are "love among themselves" (John 13 :34-35) and the fact that they fulfill the "great commission" like no others. (Matt 28:19-20; Matt 10:11-14)
2 Timothy 3:7 (KJV) Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Yes...that well describes Christendom....been learning the same lies for centuries and never coming to a knowledge of the truth.

You see the JW's that showed you love as being spiritually minded, but what spirit? If not the Spirit sent from Christ, it is the spirit of this world.

How can you possibly know that God's spirit is not the uniting force behind our brotherhood? You assume a lot, but how do you know that its not you who has been hoodwinked by an old deception? The holy spirit unites people.....it does not divide them. Look at Christendom and tell me that they are united......its a disunited mess that just creates confusion.

Mark 8:33-34 (KJV) But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men. And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

How can you even read that archaic English? "thou savourest not the things that be of God"....do you speak like that to your family members?
How about plain English.....
"But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God’s purposes, but on man’s.” And He summoned the crowd together with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me."

Now, can you tell me what you think Jesus was actually saying to Peter and why?