the return of Jesus Christ .... I see two phases

[ElieG12]

I have to go because I have a meeting tonight ... where we encourage each other and rejoice in our brotherhood, while enjoying the blessings from our God Jehovah and his Son Jesus, and study the Scriptures to meditate on God's words and learn and then share what we learn with others.

Visit us on any given day at your nearest Kingdom Hall to get a taste of the peace that comes from God... We are real, not some internet character creating drama.

Have a good one.

 

[Davy]

Just so you brethren that actually care... what God's Word teaches, the platform that ElieG12 is coming from, are from men's doctrines.

ElieG12 said:
"Jesus said to his followers in the first century:


Matt. 24:15 “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), 16 then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains.


... quoting from Dan. 9:21; 11:31 and 12:11.


He is talking about a "disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a wholy place" yet to come at some point in the future, not something that had already happened before.


Reason properly or just don't discuss."

Well firstly, Lord Jesus in His Olivet discourse was not ONLY giving those SIGNS of the end for His disciples with Him there in the 1st century. Jesus gave those SIGNS for all His Church, leading up to the day of His future coming, even the final generation of this world that will 'see' all those things He said. So any suggestion that those Signs are for any other generation than the final one is to teach men's doctrines against those Signs of the end He declared there.

In Luke 21:21, regarding Jesus' command for His servants in Jerusalem getting out of Judea, He also warned for those of His servants in the 'countries' to not enter into Jerusalem at that time. The reason is because of the 'days of vengeance' when God is going to flatten that area on the last day (see Zechariah 14).

And all... of the following verses go together when that "abomination of desolation" IDOL is setup in a new Jewish temple in Jerusalem for the end of this present world...

Matt 24:15-28
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

There Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel about the placing of the "abomination that maketh desolate" of Daniel 11:31 by the "vile person" who represents the final Antichrist at the end.

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

As I have shown from the Luke 21 version, Jesus said there will be "great wrath" upon those who are "with child" on that day, referring to the spiritual "chaste virgin" metaphor originally from Isaiah 54, which Apostle Paul used in 2 Corinthians 11.

Per Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, he said those in Christ are not appointed to wrath. Yet Lord Jesus is pointing to those that will suffer that "great wrath" as not remaining "a chaste virgin" waiting on His coming after the false one's working. That is what Paul's idea of the "strong delusion" is about. God is going to send Jerusalem a fake-Christ, and the majority there will believe it. Those in Christ's Church are to NOT fall away to that false one claiming to be Jesus with working great signs and wonders.

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

There's another spiritual metaphor Lord Jesus gave so as to recognize the danger of falling away to the false-Messiah that comes first playing Jesus.

What season of the year did Lord Jesus use for His coming and gathering of His Church? Did you say 'summer'? Yeah, that's right, per Matthew 24:32, Mark 13:28, and Luke 21:30. But on the 6th Seal first part, Jesus showed Apostle John about the stars of heaven (angels) fell to earth, as "untimely figs".

An untimely fig is about the 'winter' fig that grows in the winter season and falls off in the spring (real horticulture in middle east). It's an EARLY FIG. Get it? Spiritually it applies to those who fall away to the wrong Messiah, the first one that comes, and thus your flight would be in the WINTER, and not in the SUMMER harvest when Jesus comes to gather His true faithful Church.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jesus connects those previous events from verse 15 about the placing of the abomination idol in a new Jewish temple in Jerusalem for the end. That is when the event of the war in Heaven of Rev.12:7-9 will happen, with Satan and his host of angels booted out of the heavenly down to this earth, in OUR earthly dimension. That is why this "great tribulation" event will be of the likes the world has never seen before, nor ever will again.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

Lord Jesus then warns of a singular false-Christ the deceived will be saying, "Lo, here is Christ, or there".

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.

Again, that verse 26 confirms that Christ's subject above is a SINGULAR false-Christ, and not the "many antichrists" idea the deceived think. That coming false-Christ is to work those "great signs and wonders" that IF... it were possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect. That is to show us how powerful in deception those signs and wonders are going to be. It will cause the majority of the world to think that is our Lord Jesus Christ, but it won't be. The 1st one coming doing supernatural works will be the pseudo-Christ, a fake, the "another Jesus" Paul warned us about.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

Then Lord Jesus gives us HOW He returns, in contrast to how that fake-Messiah will show up.

And then before He gives the actual timing of the day of His coming and gathering of His saints, He hints at the TAKEN analogy He gave at the end of Luke 17:37 about the two in one bed, one taken and the other left. His answer about the first one TAKEN is to where the fowls eat on a dead carcase. His answer means a 'fly away' PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY IS FALSE.

 

[David in NJ]

You can't preach to me as if I am not studied in God's Word, so stop trying to EXALT yourself to be something you are not.

Your vain attempt to mis-apply the Daniel 9:24 verse to CHRIST'S CHURCH will not work! And I SHOWED YOU WHY... and here goes again...

Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
KJV

The 70 weeks are determined upon WHO AND WHERE? (Jerusalem and Daniel's people, the JEWS)

1. "to finish the transgression" -- has that been finished today? NO! because that "transgression" is about the "transgression of desolation" of Daniel 8:12-13. That is what Jesus was quoting about with the "abomination of desolation" IDOL the coming pseudo-Christ at the end will place in a rebuilt Jewish temple in JERUSALEM.

2. "and to make an end of sins" -- has JERUSALEM and its people made an end of sins yet today? NO!!! Absolutely NOT! Reason is because the majority of JEWS there still REJECT Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, Messiah.

3. "and to make reconciliation for iniquity" -- has that come upon JERUSALEM and her people today? NO! Those orthodox unbelieving JEWS in JERUSALEM today STILL reject Jesus Christ, thus their SINS are NOT reconciled!

4. "and to bring in everlasting righteousness" -- that even has YET to happen for Christ's Church today, because Lord Jesus has NOT returned to reign over all nations and peoples! Only then will that "everlasting righteousness" begin.

5. "and to seal up the vision and prophecy" -- the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus prophesied from the Book of Daniel about the end events of this world is still... yet to happen today. So no, the Daniel prophecy is NOT yet fulfilled, particularly about that Dan.9:27 event which Jesus quoted in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 about the end.

6. "and to anoint the most Holy" --- Nope, not happened yet, for that is about the future cleansing and anointing to the Millennial temple that Christ and His elect will reign over all nations from, as written in Ezekiel 40 thru 47. This next temple the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem are going to build will be a temple of false worship for the coming Antichrist to sit in a exalt himself in place of God, and it will be destroyed on the day of Christ's future return.

There are no more any sacrifices that can cleanse the Jewish people.

Hebrews 9:23-28
Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.


Hebrews 5:12-14
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Question #1 - when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming?

There is a mistranslation in that rendering which leads to a wrong conclusion.….this is not speaking about Christ’s “coming” but rather his “presence”. The Greek “parousia“, related to Jesus ‘arrival’, means being “present” even if the arrival itself was not observed. Much like hearing someone’s voice at a gathering and understanding that they are there, but that you did not see them arrive….hearing their voice confirmed their presence.

Now ask yourself…..if Jesus’ arrived in a visible way, what need would there be of a “sign” to indicate that he was already here?

If you remember when Jesus ascended to heaven, angels said that he would return “in the same manner”….so, in what manner did Jesus leave the earth? Only his closest companions witnessed it…the world at large was unaware of it taking place. There were no trumpets or fanfare.

Jesus went on to relay a composite “sign” of easily observed huge world events that would indicate his “presence” as King of God’s Kingdom. He spoke of wars, but not the usual kind….this would be “nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom” IOW, a global war that involved all the nations…..only one war in history was called “the First World War”. So there is our first clue as to when Jesus began ruling.….just over 100 years ago.

Jesus also spoke of food shortages, a natural consequence of the war, and people all over the world were starving. He foretold pestilence (Luke 21) and following the war, the Spanish Flu epidemic engulfed the world and took more lives that the war did. Great earthquakes would also plague the world, more so than at any other time in recorded history. False Christs and tribulation for the genuine disciples of Jesus would see John 15:18-21 fulfilled on a larger scale than in the first century.
Love would disappear from the world and ability to trust would go along with it, as we discover how betrayed we have all been by those who said they were taking care of us….they were taking care of themselves at our expense.

Question #2 - and the end of the world?

Finally he said that “this good news of the kingdom“ would be “preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations” before Jesus would bring down the curtain on this satanic world. “The end” is the end of satan’s rulership over mankind (Luke 4:6; 1 John 5:19).…not the end of the planet……satan’s influence over the human race was always going to be temporary, but it had to be settled in God’s timeframe, not ours.

IOW change the placement of the question mark to coincide with the things Christ warns of belonging to the coming of Christ through the Holy Spirit He would send. And when the Gospel has completed its task of building the Kingdom of God in heaven then shall be the end of the world or end of this age, and the new eternal age on the new earth shall begin. Christ tells us when the Comforter comes "I will come to you".

The completion of the Kingdom of God “comes”, when the last of his elect are in place, ready to take over control of this earth, which is not going anywhere….(Dan 2:44) God’s kingdom will crush all corrupt human rulership out of existence….and replace them with an incorruptible government which will stand forever…..what will be gone is satanic rulership exercised in the nations on earth who put their trust in their military power rather than trust in God and his saving power.

Could the "sign of thy coming" be speaking of the Holy Spirit sent to be IN all who believe? Two separate time periods, one pointing to the beginning of the Gospel age when the words Christ spoke would be fulfilled. That would be complete at the end of this world/age.

There are two phases of Christ’s return….he arrives, and only his true disciples discern his invisible “presence“ by observing the features of “the sign”, that would appear in one time period. They would be out preaching in obedience to Christ’s last directive to them….(Matt 28:19-20)

The “new earth” is a new earthly society who all worship the same God and who obey his commands in emulating the words and actions of his son. They are united in perfect harmony. (1 Cor 1:10)

The “new heavens” is the Kingdom of God, which rules from heaven over earthly subjects, bringing redeemed mankind back to God so that he can bring his original purpose to a completion. (Rev 21:2-4)
What God began in Eden, will be fulfilled when the kingdom has done all that God sent it to do. Then the son will hand rulership back to his Father, as it was meant to be from the start. (Isa 55:11)

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

At that judgment, the “goats“ will be dispatched with not one of them unaware of why they are being judged adversely, in spite of the fact that many false Christians will assume that their standing with Jesus is solid…..he will reject them outright, but they are not expecting it. (Matt 7:21-23) Satan’s weeds will have convinced them otherwise….a clever counterfeit that has them worshipping a different God….one Jesus never mentioned.

John 14:18 (KJV) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

As these last days draw to a close, Christ has fulfilled his promise….he has been “with” his true disciples “all the days until the end of the age”… (Matt 28:20)…that fact has always comforted them, especially when they have been “delivered up to be persecuted” for his name.

 

[rwb]

There is a mistranslation in that rendering which leads to a wrong conclusion.….this is not speaking about Christ’s “coming” but rather his “presence”. The Greek “parousia“, related to Jesus ‘arrival’, means being “present” even if the arrival itself was not observed. Much like hearing someone’s voice at a gathering and understanding that they are there, but that you did not see them arrive….hearing their voice confirmed their presence.

JW's are always suggesting they alone have the right translation, therefore claiming "mistranslation" in faithful translations of Holy Writ. There is NOT mistranslation! Rather there is misunderstanding. As I've already said the sign of His coming or His presence as you prefer was fulfilled at Pentecost. Christ was speaking of the Holy Spirit sent to be IN all who believe. Two separate time periods, one pointing to the beginning of the Gospel age when the words Christ spoke would be fulfilled. Then when the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, our Lord and Savior, Christ will physically appear, and we shall see the miracle (sign) of Him coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30-31 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you remember when Jesus ascended to heaven, angels said that he would return “in the same manner”….so, in what manner did Jesus leave the earth? Only his closest companions witnessed it…the world at large was unaware of it taking place. There were no trumpets or fanfare.

God, our Lord and Savior physically ascended up and will be seen physically again descending just as He was seen ascending. The world at large was not at Pentecost on that day. His ascending up wasn't meant to be witnessed by all; it was only for those whom He had chosen.
All the miracles and signs performed by Christ were not seen by the whole world either, because the whole world is not called to be His witnesses of these things. But His chosen apostles were instructed to remain in Jerusalem until the sign of His coming through His Holy Spirit was poured upon them. After being baptized with the Holy Spirit, Christ said would be in them, the apostles would go unto all the world telling them of the power of God to save whosoever believes Christ is the Saviour.

Acts 1:1-5 (KJV) The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

There were no trumpets or fanfare at Pentecost because the sounding of the trumpet of God shall announce the return of Christ for His people. His return with the miracle (sign) of the Son of man in the clouds of heaven won't be given to a few witnesses, then shall ALL the tribes (every race) of the earth mourn, because the angel will sound the trumpet to announce the gathering of the elect (chosen) of God from the four winds and from one end of heaven to the other. There will be no need for chosen witnesses then, because the spiritual Kingdom of God will be complete and therefore no need for some to be witnesses to Him. The Great White Throne Judgment Day has come, and none shall escape!

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Finally he said that “this good news of the kingdom“ would be “preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations” before Jesus would bring down the curtain on this satanic world. “The end” is the end of satan’s rulership over mankind (Luke 4:6; 1 John 5:19).…not the end of the planet……satan’s influence over the human race was always going to be temporary, but it had to be settled in God’s timeframe, not ours.

Christ' return is indeed the end of Satan ruling over fallen mankind. Those under the influence of Satan, along with this earth shall be utterly burned up by fire from heaven. (Mt 13:37-43; Rev 20:7-10; 2Pet 3:10-11; Rev 11:15; Rev 21:1-5; Rev 20:11-15)

The completion of the Kingdom of God “comes”, when the last of his elect are in place, ready to take over control of this earth, which is not going anywhere….(Dan 2:44) God’s kingdom will crush all corrupt human rulership out of existence….and replace them with an incorruptible government which will stand forever…..what will be gone is satanic rulership exercised in the nations on earth who put their trust in their military power rather than trust in God and his saving power.

The Kingdom of God is NOT of this world, so why would the elect of God want to have control over it? Dan 2:44 does not say this earth shall not end, it says the Kingdom that God establishes shall NEVER be destroyed. Stop looking for a physical kingdom to come! The Kingdom Daniel was told would come is not a physical kingdom of this earth, it is the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven that Christ came to this earth with.

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

This is why the saints are instructed to pray, "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." The Kingdom of God NOW is a spiritual Kingdom that is known and entered through the Holy Spirit from God in you. When the will of God is found on this earth through men/women of faith, the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is being built as faithful saints come into His Kingdom.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-8 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

There are two phases of Christ’s return….he arrives, and only his true disciples discern his invisible “presence“ by observing the features of “the sign”, that would appear in one time period. They would be out preaching in obedience to Christ’s last directive to them….(Matt 28:19-20)

No, Christ does not return in two phases! First Christ sent His Holy Spirit to accompany the preaching of the Gospel with power to eternally save whosoever believes according to grace. His Spirit will be within His people until Christ comes again when the Gospel through the power of the Spirit has completed building the spiritual Kingdom of God and there are no more to be saved. Then the final/seventh trumpet will sound that time given this earth for building the Kingdom of God through the Gospel shall be no more. After Satan has his little season, Christ will come again to make ALL things new, usher in the new heaven and new earth where there will be no more sin, death, or sorrow and hell (grave) will be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[dadman]

This is all about discussing a yet future event ... right ?
I believe it's a little legalistic to get real dogmatic about a future event.
although, I do believe that Gods Word (rightly divided) shows us a sequence of events
this might be a good time to discuss what Christianity really is
and no, JWs are not Christian, even though that's what they claim.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses go door to door, distribute the Watchtower and Awake magazines,
They deny the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and deny his physical resurrection.
Are they Christian or something else? Find out about their beliefs, history,
as well as a Biblical Response to their unbiblical teachings ......... carm.org




.....

 

[David in NJ]

This is all about discussing a yet future event ... right ?
I believe it's a little legalistic to get real dogmatic about a future event.
although, I do believe that Gods Word (rightly divided) shows us a sequence of events
this might be a good time to discuss what Christianity really is
and no, JWs are not Christian, even though that's what they claim.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses go door to door, distribute the Watchtower and Awake magazines,
They deny the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and deny his physical resurrection.
Are they Christian or something else? Find out about their beliefs, history,
as well as a Biblical Response to their unbiblical teachings ......... carm.org




.....

JWs reject Salvation because they only accept 'jehovah' - or so they think...........

 

[dadman]

Is it not true that JWs believe Jesus returned in 1925 ?

Believe me, When Jesus returns ... there will be NO mistake

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is all about discussing a yet future event ... right ?
I believe it's a little legalistic to get real dogmatic about a future event.
although, I do believe that Gods Word (rightly divided) shows us a sequence of events
this might be a good time to discuss what Christianity really is
and no, JWs are not Christian, even though that's what they claim.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses go door to door, distribute the Watchtower and Awake magazines,
They deny the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and deny his physical resurrection.
Are they Christian or something else? Find out about their beliefs, history,
as well as a Biblical Response to their unbiblical teachings ......... carm.org

Just so you know....attack is an indication of a very weak defense. If you have to attack, it means you cannot defend your beliefs.
Relying on 'hate sites' to provide you with information about our beliefs and teachings is just plain lazy....how do you know that any of that is true? I have been on both sides of this fence and I can assure you that my research is thorough. When you do some research on the beliefs of Christendom, you will not find any of them taught by Jesus Christ or any of his apostles.....there are "wheat and weeds" in the world....can you tell the difference? One has the devil as their source of instruction and the other has Jesus Christ....one is a poor imitation, whilst the other follows Christ's instructions to the letter. Jesus said "by their fruits" we would be able to identify the genuine Christians, and one important aspect would be the "hatred" incurred because of promoting the truth as Jesus did to those who have their ears stoppoed up. (John 15:18-21)

Imagine what they said about Jesus and his apostles.....the Jews hated them enough to want to silence them, by putting their leader to death on a trumped up charge of blasphemy. Who were the foremost persecutors of Jesus and his apostles....? It was those who claimed to worship the same God.....is history repeating?
How are "few" on the road to life? (Matt :13-14) Who are the "many" on the road to destruction? How can you tell?

Is it not true that JWs believe Jesus returned in 1925 ?

No, Jesus returned in 1914 with the outbreak of the greatest war in the history of the world, followed by all the other features of the "sign" that he gave to indicate that he had begun ruling in the Kingdom of his God and Father.
Daniel had seen Christ's coronation in vision some 500 years before he was born as a human. (Dan :13-14)

His "presence" was not something the world discerned, because he returned in the same "manner" in which he left......but his "coming" as judge will leave them in no doubt.

Believe me, When Jesus returns ... there will be NO mistake

Many will be caught unawares, and his stinging rejection will leave them speechless. (Matt :21-23) "I never knew you".....

 

[rwb]

Just so you know....attack is an indication of a very weak defense.

Telling the truth is NOT attacking! Nor is it a weak defense! JW's wouldn't be offended if they had truth.

 

[dadman]

Telling the truth is NOT attacking! Nor is it a weak defense! JW's wouldn't be offended if they had truth.

Indeed, .... I used to possess a 'New World translation'
years ago that stated in Hebrews, speaking of Jesus: "Let all the angels of God WORSHIP him" ... they later changed it
Aunty Jane ..... do you remember the date of that earlier 'translation' ??



For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? ( Jesus was never an angel )
And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom
..... Hebrews 1:5-8

 

[Davy]

There are no more any sacrifices that can cleanse the Jewish people.

Now you have drifted OFF-TOPIC.

No one here said any sacrifices would cleanse the Jewish people. And I am not Jewish.

But the orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem, and in the world, DO believe they can be cleansed by old covenant sacrifices, and that is why today they plan to build another Jewish temple in Jerusalem and start all that up again, which is what the Daniel 8, 9, 11, and 12 chapters are about.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Telling the truth is NOT attacking! Nor is it a weak defense! JW's wouldn't be offended if they had truth.

You too? Where is your defence? Does this address anything I said....

Am I offended by the lies told about us? Was Jesus? Telling the truth is NOT attacking....LOL.

Were the apostles offended by the accusations brought against them that resulted in their imprisonment?
Jesus told them to expect it, so why be offended? All I ask is that the truth be told...without assuming things to be true because someone else said so.

I was on the other side of this fence many years ago, fighting with my own conscience when I saw the blatant hypocrisy of the church I was raised in. Jehovah’s Witnesses were the last people on earth that I expected to be able to teach me anything. I too believed what others had said about them.....but one day they called, and I had lost my father to a sudden heart attack only a few months before. He was only 52 and it left our family in utter despair.
The minister of our church did not even bother to call and offer my mother any comfort. My family were poor and could not manage much for the weekly contribution, but it was all they could afford.

Only weeks after my father’s death, two ladies called from the church, not to offer comfort or help, but to ask for the money that was owing because we had failed to put anything in the plate in the weeks of our grieving. That was it for my mother, and we never went to church again.

Being a spiritually minded person, even though I lost faith in the church, I never lost faith in God or his word.
I went on a mission to find him.....and he was missing in all of the churches I investigated, all having the same core beliefs under a different banner, and doing the very same things that they all justified in the whole of Christendom....and that were against everything Jesus taught.

Then two JW ladies called and I was ready for combat.....I was going to fire all my questions at them and expected that they would retreat with their tails between their legs....But, all of the issues I raised with the JW ladies had a reasonable explanation, and what was more impressive to me was that they used the Bible to answer all of my questions. They asked me if I had my own Bible and when I brought it out, I learned more in that short conversation, than I had learned after a lifetime in church.
My old KJV, told me what the church never did....that God had a name. (Psalm 83:18) And it wasn’t Jesus...and how important that name was. A title is not a name and all the churches taught about a “Lord” that Jesus never knew.

When we got to the subject of death, they got me to read Eccl 9:5, 10, which showed me that my father (who had lost his faith during WW 2 when his brother was killed, so not a church-goer) was not suffering in hell, nor was he in heaven, pining for us as, we were pining for him. He was “sleeping” in a state of complete unconsciousness, which sat very well with me, and made me want to know more of what the Bible taught, as opposed to what the churches taught. I was actually shocked that all they said resonated with me. So I studied the Bible for two years before I committed myself to Jehovah as my God too.

There is a reason why only “few” (relatively speaking) are on the road to life, as opposed to the “many” who are travelling the superhighway to “destruction”. (Matt 7:13-14) There is no safety in numbers.

Those being saved are not the disunited majority....it’s the hated minority who have discarded the false teachings indoctrinated by Christendom’s many church denominations....just as the first Christians has to discard the false teachings of first century Judaism. (Matt 15:7-9).....their worship is “in vain” because it is not according to the truth of the Bible....history is repeating but no one seems to notice.....

 

[rwb]

You too? Where is your defence? Does this address anything I said....

Am I offended by the lies told about us? Was Jesus? Telling the truth is NOT attacking....LOL.

Were the apostles offended by the accusations brought against them that resulted in their imprisonment?
Jesus told them to expect it, so why be offended? All I ask is that the truth be told...without assuming things to be true because someone else said so.

I was on the other side of this fence many years ago, fighting with my own conscience when I saw the blatant hypocrisy of the church I was raised in. Jehovah’s Witnesses were the last people on earth that I expected to be able to teach me anything. I too believed what others had said about them.....but one day they called, and I had lost my father to a sudden heart attack only a few months before. He was only 52 and it left our family in utter despair.
The minister of our church did not even bother to call and offer my mother any comfort. My family were poor and could not manage much for the weekly contribution, but it was all they could afford.

Only weeks after my father’s death, two ladies called from the church, not to offer comfort or help, but to ask for the money that was owing because we had failed to put anything in the plate in the weeks of our grieving. That was it for my mother, and we never went to church again.

Being a spiritually minded person, even though I lost faith in the church, I never lost faith in God or his word.
I went on a mission to find him.....and he was missing in all of the churches I investigated, all having the same core beliefs under a different banner, and doing the very same things that they all justified in the whole of Christendom....and that were against everything Jesus taught.

Then two JW ladies called and I was ready for combat.....I was going to fire all my questions at them and expected that they would retreat with their tails between their legs....But, all of the issues I raised with the JW ladies had a reasonable explanation, and what was more impressive to me was that they used the Bible to answer all of my questions. They asked me if I had my own Bible and when I brought it out, I learned more in that short conversation, than I had learned after a lifetime in church.
My old KJV, told me what the church never did....that God had a name. (Psalm 83:18) And it wasn’t Jesus...and how important that name was. A title is not a name and all the churches taught about a “Lord” that Jesus never knew.

When we got to the subject of death, they got me to read Eccl 9:5, 10, which showed me that my father (who had lost his faith during WW 2 when his brother was killed, so not a church-goer) was not suffering in hell, nor was he in heaven, pining for us as, we were pining for him. He was “sleeping” in a state of complete unconsciousness, which sat very well with me, and made me want to know more of what the Bible taught, as opposed to what the churches taught. I was actually shocked that all they said resonated with me. So I studied the Bible for two years before I committed myself to Jehovah as my God too.

There is a reason why only “few” (relatively speaking) are on the road to life, as opposed to the “many” who are travelling the superhighway to “destruction”. (Matt 7:13-14) There is no safety in numbers.

Those being saved are not the disunited majority....it’s the hated minority who have discarded the false teachings indoctrinated by Christendom’s many church denominations....just as the first Christians has to discard the false teachings of first century Judaism. (Matt 15:7-9).....their worship is “in vain” because it is not according to the truth of the Bible....history is repeating but no one seems to notice.....

Yes, I've learned from experience that JW's are very well trained and very good at what they believe to be witnessing for Christ. The main problem is that JW's do NOT believe Christ is God! When I learned that JW's deny the deity of Christ, I realized they have no Savior because only God can give eternal life. Without a Savior JW's cannot have His Spirit in them. Without the Spirit of Christ in them JW's are NOT born again. Without the Spirit of Christ in a man/woman they cannot understand the things of God that MUST be spiritually discerned. Why should anyone believe the New World Translation is a superior Bible to all the other translations that have withstood the test of time far longer than the NWT? It is through this abominable translation that JW's have determined their doctrine is truth. JW's will no doubt find these words offensive, but I don't reply to JW's erroneous doctrine to convince JW's. I reply in hope of keeping others from being persuaded by these well-trained workers of deception. It is my prayer that other less mature Christians posting in these forums will not be swayed by JW's because myself and other faithful true Christians have taken the time to show the deception of their false doctrine.

Why would anyone link their hearts and minds together with a group that was founded by a man named Charles Russell Taze in Pittsburgh in the 1870?

 

[ElieG12]

You are fake and everyone has seen that. You attack JWs because you can't prove what you say or dissprove what we show others with the Bible because you don't know the Scriptures as we do.

You are agressive with us because you know we won't answer you with agression as you attack us, and that is cowardly not bravery. We didn't learn how to attack people because we have never studied that in the Bible and the ones that teach us never waste our time talking about those kinds of tactics that belong to the dark, but to keep conquering the evil with the good (Ro. 12:21) ... Nobody take the time to teach you those things ...

So, with that attitude you prove that you are not a real Christian, so if readers are smart they will recognize the diference.You just proved us better than you as Christians ... thanks for that.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, I've learned from experience that JW's are very well trained and very good at what they believe to be witnessing for Christ.

It makes us rather unique because no one else seems to take ‘the great commission’ seriously. (Matt 28:19-20) It’s someone else’s job apparently. Jesus told his disciples to preach “the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations” before Christ brings his angelic forces to judge the “sheep and the goats“…dispatching the goats to the place reserved for the devil, and granting everlasting life to the “sheep”....but do the "goats" know that they are not "sheep"? Apparently someone told them that they were....but Jesus will say..."I NEVER knew you". (Matt 7:21-23) They will be shocked!

Who else is well known for their preaching in all nations…who has never heard of Jehovah’s Witnesses? Even during the pandemic, when we could not call in person, we wrote letters to our neighbors alerting them to ‘the sign of the times’....and "the good news of the Kingdom". We are as well trained as Jesus’ first disciples were….(Matt 10:11-14; Luke 10:1-3)
We know what the “good news of the kingdom“ is…do you?
Can you tell us please what it is that Jesus told his disciples to tell the people? What is God’s kingdom?
What is its purpose, and what will it accomplish?

The main problem is that JW's do NOT believe Christ is God! When I learned that JW's deny the deity of Christ, I realized they have no Savior because only God can give eternal life. Without a Savior JW's cannot have His Spirit in them. Without the Spirit of Christ in them JW's are NOT born again. Without the Spirit of Christ in a man/woman they cannot understand the things of God that MUST be spiritually discerned.

And who told you this? Who told you that we have no savior? We have preached Christ as our savior for all of our existence....we just do not believe that he is God incarnate.....for the simple reason that Jesus never said he was God.....not once. He identified his Father as "the only true God" without including himself (John 17:3) and his apostles also identified their God in 1 Cor 8:5-6...
"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."
Jesus is our "Lord" but "Jehovah" is our God. He is the God of Jesus even in heaven. (Rev 3:14)

Why should anyone believe the New World Translation is a superior Bible to all the other translations that have withstood the test of time far longer than the NWT?

Realizing that religious errors go back way before translations were made available in English, it was by studying original language words and their meanings that we understood how many errors were grafted into the translation to support a bias that had been introduced by the church centuries before. These translations have "stood the test of time" all right, but it didn't make them accurate. Those adhering to archaic English in the hope of it sounding more authentic, have been misled....falsehood sounds the same in any language.

It is through this abominable translation that JW's have determined their doctrine is truth. JW's will no doubt find these words offensive, but I don't reply to JW's erroneous doctrine to convince JW's. I reply in hope of keeping others from being persuaded by these well-trained workers of deception. It is my prayer that other less mature Christians posting in these forums will not be swayed by JW's because myself and other faithful true Christians have taken the time to show the deception of their false doctrine.

You mean genuine truth seekers like me? Those who studied the old KJV and still saw the truth in spite of the errors....The NWT was not even written when I was searching for the true God, whom I know now has never set foot in Christendom. When Jesus says "I NEVER knew you".....NEVER means NOT EVER. Those who fail to teach and practice what Jesus taught, (living a life everyday as a footstep follower of the Christ,) will find themselves making excuses as to why they preferred the wrong path, because 'the cramped and narrow road' is the only way to life and "few" are found on it.....sorry to disillusion you. The deceptions of a failed religious system are what we came to expose. Jesus did the same thing...they hated him for that too.
To date you have proven nothing except that you like to listen to gossip. Have you taken the time to examine the truth of your own beliefs?

Why would anyone link their hearts and minds together with a group that was founded by a man named Charles Russell Taze in Pittsburgh in the 1870?

Why would anyone link their hearts and minds to a divided religious system who cannot agree on much of anything. Does the holy spirit speak with a forked tongue? Who creates the divisions if not men whose ideas are accepted by others as truth? Does the spirit whisper one truth to one church and another truth to others? What kind of God do you all worship? A prankster?....or a god who tortures souls alive forever in flames? Seriously? That is more in keeping with the devil's personality, not Jehovah's. Not a single law in Israel carried torture or fire of any kind as a penalty....the highest penalty under the law was "death"....that's it.

Want to talk about "gehenna"? That place 'where the flames never go out and the worms do not die'? Its not "hell". (Matt 10:28)
Can you give us your take on that?

If you are so concerned about the readers, then defend your beliefs and allow them to make up their own minds...that is what Jesus did....he spoke his truth on a "take it or leave it" basis. He did not force them to believe anything...he allowed their hearts to respond...or not.
People are not "blind" unless the devil already has them. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

Draw your sword and defend your faith (Eph 6:17).....can you?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Indeed, .... I used to possess a 'New World translation'
years ago that stated in Hebrews, speaking of Jesus: "Let all the angels of God WORSHIP him" ... they later changed it
Aunty Jane ..... do you remember the date of that earlier 'translation' ??

Yes I do, and I also remember the clarification of that verse, referring to the original Greek word pro·sky·neʹo which corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hish·ta·chawahʹ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship.

Strongs gives the definition of "pro·sky·neʹo" as.....

1. "to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3. in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
   
   
   1. used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
      
      
      1. to the Jewish high priests
      2. to God
      3. to Christ
      4. to heavenly beings
      5. to demons"

Now can you tell me with those meanings in mind, what the angels were offering to Jesus? Was it "worship" in the same sense as one worships God? In almost all of the translations I consulted, it says that the angels "worship" Jesus....but when those words were written, the idea that Jesus was anything but "the son of God" was unknown. (1 Cor 8:5-6; Matt 16:13-17)

Please show me a single scripture where Jesus says that he is God Almighty....or that God worships Jesus....or that either one worships the holy spirit......because Jesus worships his Father even in heaven. (Rev 3:14)

Hebrews 1 starts off by saying....
"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."

Now reading that introduction, what picture are we getting about Jesus? He is God's son, whom his Father appointed "heir of all things"...how does God inherit anything that does not already belong to him?

How did God make the worlds?...it was THROUGH his son. This is called "agency".... IOW God created all things by means of his son, who is described as "the brightness of his glory and the express image of his person". An image is a reflection of something, but it is not that something. The moon reflects light from the sun, but its brightness is dependent on the existence of the sun, since the moon has no brightness of its own.

And verse 4 tells us something extraordinary....that Jesus became "so much better than the angels".....if he was God, how is that possible, since God has always been better than the angels......he has "inherited a name more excellent than they" have. How does Jesus inherit a name more excellent than the one he already has? (Psalm 83:18) Do you never read past your chosen verse to obtain context?

 

[dadman]

Yeah, I really don't have all the time in the world to deal with JWs and their false doctrines
I'll leave this thread with someone who does, btw: rwb .... good job ...
Matt Slick, I believe has all the scoop concerning this cult masquerading as Christian
I really don't plan to throw any more 'fodder' at them ......... later folks




.....

 

[rwb]

It makes us rather unique because no one else seems to take ‘the great commission’ seriously. (Matt 28:19-20) It’s someone else’s job apparently. Jesus told his disciples to preach “the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations” before Christ brings his angelic forces to judge the “sheep and the goats“…dispatching the goats to the place reserved for the devil, and granting everlasting life to the “sheep”....but do the "goats" know that they are not "sheep"? Apparently someone told them that they were....but Jesus will say..."I NEVER knew you". (Matt 7:21-23) They will be shocked!

What is the great commission JW's take so seriously? The good news of the Kingdom of God is found in Christ alone, and the only entrance into the Kingdom is to be born again of the Holy Spirit. But we only access new birth by believing that Christ is God! Because God only gives new birth according to grace through faith. Since JW's deny that Christ is God, they have NOT His Spirit, have NOT been born again. Apparently, someone has told JW's that they can be "sheep" without God, but as you rightly say Jesus will say to them "I NEVER knew you." JW's will no doubt be shocked to hear, how all their good deeds, outward works of righteousness has NOT earned them the everlasting life they thought their good deeds would earn them.

And who told you this? Who told you that we have no savior? We have preached Christ as our savior for all of our existence....we just do not believe that he is God incarnate.....for the simple reason that Jesus never said he was God.....not once. He identified his Father as "the only true God" without including himself (John 17:3) and his apostles also identified their God in 1 Cor 8:5-6...

How can Christ be your Saviour (notice out of respect for the Almighty the capital S?) if He is not God come in the flesh? If Christ is not God incarnate, He is only human, where does the Word of God (not the NWT) say you can be saved by a human being? The true Word of God, which the NWT is NOT, never denies the deity of Christ. Even the Jews in unbelief realized that Christ claimed to be God, and for that reason they wanted to stone Him. The Son is of One substance with the Father, that's why Christ says "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him" (Jo 14:7).

John 10:25-33 (KJV) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 14:9 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

The doctrine of Christ is that He is God, come in the flesh that whosoever believes Him is born again of Him and shall NEVER die.

2 John 7-11 (KJV) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

The Apostles do NOT deny the deity of Christ. This verse affirms the one God, the Father of ALL things created, and the one Lord Jesus Christ by whom ALL things are created, and we (Christians) by Him. It's no different than John writing "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God." The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. If you deny the deity of Christ, you have NOT the gift of eternal life that is the gift of God ALONE.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

John 1:1-4 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Romans 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Why would anyone link their hearts and minds to a divided religious system who cannot agree on much of anything.

According to JW's it would be better to link our hearts and minds to a SECT - a group of people with somewhat different religious beliefs from those of a larger group to which they belong. I realize you were disappointed with what you experienced in so-called Christian Churches. And that JW's were there for you when you needed demonstrations of love, that you never felt from other denominations. So you left a Church with blatant hypocrisy to embrace an outward show of love you found in JW's.

You say "I went on a mission to find God", and you think because JW's were outwardly very loving in your time of need, that you found Him? It seems you may be like those who study and are always learning, but you lack knowledge of the truth. Truth of God cannot be found apart from the Spirit of Christ in you. And you cannot have the Spirit of Christ that comes from God in you, when you deny Christ is God Almighty come in the flesh.

2 Timothy 3:7 (KJV) Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You see the JW's that showed you love as being spiritually minded, but what spirit? If not the Spirit sent from Christ, it is the spirit of this world. I'm reminded of the temptation of Christ in the wilderness when the tempter came to Him willing and ready to give Jesus all the kingdoms and glory of the world if He would simply fall down and worship him. The tempter was sincere, just as JW's are also very sincere, but like the doctrine of the tempter, so too JW's doctrine is deceiving and subtle. Just as Peter too was deceived when he rebuked Christ for telling them He must suffer and die. Peter was not savoring the things of Christ who is God, but the things of men. JW's savor and cherish above all things their doctrine that does not come from God, but from fallen man (NWT). It is a doctrine that cannot eternally save you, because their doctrine denies Christ is God!

Mark 8:33-34 (KJV) But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men. And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

All thanks be Unto The Great God And Saviour, The LORD Jesus Christ, for all the prayer warriors,
who refrain from these discouraging threads ( which forget the 'trinity/deity" discussion ban ),

but, we still believe in God's:

Grace, Peace, Mercy, And JOY!

Amen.