The resurection at the time of great tribulation

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are twisting the meaning of "the first resurrection" to make it the same as "the first begotten of the dead". The harvest is not the same as the first fruit.

No, I'm not. Are you unaware that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection? Scripture teaches this.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Also, by context you should have easily understood what is being referred to as "the first resurrection." in Rev. 20:5. Let me show you what you missed....

Revelation 20:4-5 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I don't need you to show me anything. Why didn't you respond to what I said? Too afraid to take a closer look at Revelation 20?

Have you looked at Revelation 20:6 closely?

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Compare what it says there with what John wrote earlier in the book here:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

According to John in Rev 1:5-6, Jesus was already reigning at the time he wrote the book and believers were already made priests at that time. And it refers to Jesus as being "the first begotten of the dead", which is a reference to the fact that He was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20-23), making His resurrection the first resurrection. With all of this in mind, you should see that Revelation 20:6 speaks of a current reality.

 

[dremnant]

No, I'm not. Are you unaware that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection? Scripture teaches this.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.


I don't need you to show me anything. Why didn't you respond to what I said? Too afraid to take a closer look at Revelation 20?

Have you looked at Revelation 20:6 closely?

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Compare what it says there with what John wrote earlier in the book here:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

According to John in Rev 1:5-6, Jesus was already reigning at the time he wrote the book and believers were already made priests at that time. And it refers to Jesus as being "the first begotten of the dead", which is a reference to the fact that He was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20-23), making His resurrection the first resurrection. With all of this in mind, you should see that Revelation 20:6 speaks of a current reality.

I wish I could just say "let's agree to disagree".

But you are blatantly twisting what the Bible says by denying the texts explicitly and literally mentioning the first resurrection, while twisting the meaning of the "the first begotten of the dead" to make it mean first resurrection.

There's nothing more I could do to help you understand the Scriptures. You are on your own unless God intervenes.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I wish I could just say "let's agree to disagree".

But you are blatantly twisting what the Bible says by denying the texts explicitly and literally mentioning the first resurrection, while twisting the meaning of the "the first begotten of the dead" to make it mean first resurrection.

There's nothing more I could do to help you understand the Scriptures. You are on your own unless God intervenes.

You say that while you are too cowardly to address the points I made regarding Revelation 20:6. It's typical of someone to just run away like this when they have no way of refuting what was said. Your lack of willingness to address my points says it all about your desire to just cherry pick and twist the scriptures you want to use to support your false doctrine while ignoring the rest.

 

[dremnant]

You say that while you are too cowardly to address the points I made regarding Revelation 20:6. It's typical of someone to just run away like this when they have no way of refuting what was said. Your lack of willingness to address my points says it all about your desire to just cherry pick and twist the scriptures you want to use to support your false doctrine while ignoring the rest.

You want to interpret Revelation 20:6 as if verses 4 and 5 didn't exist.

Go and print your own Bible without those verses...maybe that way you could find some one you could trick and deceive.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You want to interpret Revelation 20:6 as if verses 4 and 5 didn't exist.

Wrong. My interpretation prevents those verses from contradicting each other. Yours doesn't. How would you like it if I told you that you want to interpret verses 4 and 5 as if verse 6 didn't exist? Is that a productive thing to say in this discussion? I think the fact of the matter is that we both want to interpret all 3 verses in a way that they don't contradict each other and that's what I'm trying to do. Is that what you're trying to do? Are you taking all of scripture into account when interpreting those verses so that you don't contradict any other scripture?

Go and print your own Bible without those verses...maybe that way you could find some one you could trick and deceive.

Grow up. Instead of being childish like this, how about you address what I said about Revelation 20:6 and tell me how you think it should be interpreted. When other scripture says Jesus reigns now and we are priests now, you think I should not take those scriptures into account?

 

[tailgator]

Wrong. My interpretation prevents those verses from contradicting each other. Yours doesn't. How would you like it if I told you that you want to interpret verses 4 and 5 as if verse 6 didn't exist? Is that a productive thing to say in this discussion? I think the fact of the matter is that we both want to interpret all 3 verses in a way that they don't contradict each other and that's what I'm trying to do. Is that what you're trying to do? Are you taking all of scripture into account when interpreting those verses so that you don't contradict any other scripture?


Grow up. Instead of being childish like this, how about you address what I said about Revelation 20:6 and tell me how you think it should be interpreted. When other scripture says Jesus reigns now and we are priests now, you think I should not take those scriptures into account?

None of revelation 20 contradicts itself.It is a very well written chapter mainly about the christians who are killed during the 42 months tribulation by the beast and are resurected and reign with Christ upon earth.After reigning with Christ on the breath of the earth for 1000 years,Gog comes against them and surrounds them. Then fire comes down from heaven and destroys Gog and all his host.

It's an outlive of Ezekiel chapters 37-39 concerning the resurection of Israel and Messiah reigning in the land of Israel.And of coarse the nations coming against them and being defeated by God.

It's a beautiful story of God's love and protection for them who trust in him and keep his commandments through the new covenant.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

None of revelation 20 contradicts itself.

LOL! Who is saying that it does? Not me. But, your interpretation of it causes it to contradiction itself. Also, we need to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that does not contradict any other scripture besides Revelation 20. But, you don't do that.

 

[tailgator]

LOL! Who is saying that it does? Not me. But, your interpretation of it causes it to contradiction itself. Also, we need to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that does not contradict any other scripture besides Revelation 20. But, you don't do that.

I like revelation 20 as it is.It needs no interpretation


Your the one who says it needs interpreting .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I like revelation 20 as it is.It needs no interpretation


Your the one who says it needs interpreting .

LOL. You know someone is clueless about scripture when they claim it needs no interpretation.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You read scripture like the natural man who relies only on "words which man's wisdom teacheth" instead of those "which the Holy Ghost teacheth" which are "foolishness unto him".

 

[Timtofly]

"Sleep" in both OT and NT when referring to the dead, it is the body that sleeps in the ground, but not the spirits of them that died. They remain aware and conscious. The spirit of a person flees the body at death.

No "spirits" in a body. The body has a soul. Or more succinctly you as a soul have a body of death, that you change for God's permanent incorruptible physical body upon entering Paradise.

A spirit in a mind is demonic influence, and you don't want a spirit in you from another person. The Holy Spirit is the only spirit that should be present that any one can submit to and obey.

You leave this body and enter sheol or Paradise depending on the choice of salvation you made while in this body of death.

The body returns to dust, no one gets their old body back. The first resurrection is putting on a physical body.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No "spirits" in a body. The body has a soul.

You should try actually reading scripture some time.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You say we have no spirit. Scripture says we are made up of a spirit, soul and body. I'm going to side with scripture over you every time.

 

[Davy]

The deceived often don't use a 'complete' Bible...

Rev 2:10
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
KJV

Matt 24:9
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
KJV


Not all the Church will be killed, but 'some' of us will be killed during the coming "great tribulation". That is why Lord Jesus also said the following...

Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV

Mark 8:35
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for My sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
KJV

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV

 

[Timtofly]

So, instead of thinking reigning has something to do with being a dictator,

No one said anything about being a dictator, but you.

The thousand years did not start back in the first century.

One comparison does not equate to the other, just because of color coding. No one was beheaded that fit the criteria of Revelation 20:4 in the first century, and being beheaded was prior to the ruling and reigning, so no one did that ruling and reigning and were then martyred.

Those beheaded were not beheaded for being faithful. Both pre-mill and amil don't know how to read, and add thoughts into the text. They were beheaded instead of taking the mark. How was that a viable option in the first century? The mark was placed by God to ensure one was placed into the LOF. There was no LOF in the first century, and still none today. There has to be a LOF, before a mark is even handed out.

People from the first century, are still named in the Lamb's book of life. Their names have not been removed, and a mark placed by God, yet. The mark is a physical as the resurrection of those beheaded. And being beheaded is physical, not spiritual. Jesus was physically resurrected, as well as all from Abraham's bosom, not symbolically resurrected.

You don't currently get a symbolic mark, nor symbolic salvation by making a choice. How can you say that has been going on for 2 millenia? How can you say people are constantly being symbolically beheaded?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No one said anything about being a dictator, but you.

That's what most Premills believe. Why are you ignorant about what other Premills believe? Do you not believe that Jesus will rule like a dictator during the thousand years in the sense of forcing people to obey Him or else be immediately punished?

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 13:47-50​

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Yes, and the beheaded people exist after this point. They are the leftovers after this final harvest. Every harvest still has some leftovers. You have the beheaded as existing in the first century. They were not even born yet, 2,000 years ago.

 

[Timtofly]

You should try actually reading scripture some time.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You say we have no spirit. Scripture says we are made up of a spirit, soul and body. I'm going to side with scripture over you every time.

I never posted we don't have a spirit. Your spirit is not inside of you. You are spiritually dead, meaning separated from your spirit. God does not have the Holy Spirit inside of God. The Holy Spirit is active throughout the whole world. Seems like being in God's image would be similar, no?

You spirit needs to be preserved so as not to become a demon. But your spirit is before the throne in heaven. If you had your spirit, you would not be spiritually dead, nor need the Holy Spirit in and with you. Your spirit can not associate with this body and state of death, unless it has become a demon, as in a reprobate state. See Romans 1. Demons are spirits no longer present before the throne of God, allowed to be active on the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

That's what most Premills believe. Why are you ignorant about what other Premills believe? Do you not believe that Jesus will rule like a dictator during the thousand years in the sense of forcing people to obey Him or else be immediately punished?

Don't you think laws are necessary in creation?

There will not be any of Adam's dead correct flesh on earth. Was God a dictator in the Garden of Eden prior to sin and Adam's disobedience? Was God wrong in telling Adam he would die when Adam disobeyed God? The millennium will be like the Garden of Eden, so no, there will not be any dictatorship going on. All on earth will be glad and thankful a disobedient person is instantly dealt with and removed from society and placed in death. Unlike, Adam and Eve, who were allowed to spread sin and death across the earth through their offspring. Obviously your carnal sinful mind cannot understand how that will work, with no sin and death.

It worked for Adam and Eve in the Garden and all the sons of God on the earth created on the 6th day, until Adam disobeyed, and allowed sin and death into creation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I never posted we don't have a spirit. Your spirit is not inside of you.

That's still wrong. How does that even make any sense? Do you believe the soul is inside of us? The soul and spirit are not separate.

Acts 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

See how this verse compares the connection between the soul and spirit with the connection between joints and marrow, which are not disconnected?

You are spiritually dead, meaning separated from your spirit.

I'm not spiritually dead, I'm saved. Only those who are not saved are spiritually dead in their sins. Someone being spiritually dead in sins is not a separation from their spirit, but rather a separation from a personal relationship with God.

God does not have the Holy Spirit inside of God.

LOL. Why are you comparing that to how things are for us? Does God have a body like we do? No. So, this is a ridiculous comparison.

The Holy Spirit is active throughout the whole world. Seems like being in God's image would be similar, no?

No. God is Spirit and does not have a body. We are more than just spirit. We are body, soul and spirit. Being made in God's image means that we have the capacity to love and to be loved and we have a sense of right and wrong with the responsibility to do what is right as God always does.

You spirit needs to be preserved so as not to become a demon.

That is complete, total, utter, 100% nonsense.

But your spirit is before the throne in heaven. If you had your spirit, you would not be spiritually dead, nor need the Holy Spirit in and with you.

I'm not spiritually dead. Speak for yourself.

Your spirit can not associate with this body and state of death, unless it has become a demon, as in a reprobate state. See Romans 1. Demons are spirits no longer present before the throne of God, allowed to be active on the earth.

No, demons are fallen angels. Where do you get your ideas from? Did anyone teach you this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Don't you think laws are necessary in creation?

There will not be any of Adam's dead correct flesh on earth. Was God a dictator in the Garden of Eden prior to sin and Adam's disobedience? Was God wrong in telling Adam he would die when Adam disobeyed God? The millennium will be like the Garden of Eden, so no, there will not be any dictatorship going on. All on earth will be glad and thankful a disobedient person is instantly dealt with and removed from society and placed in death. Unlike, Adam and Eve, who were allowed to spread sin and death across the earth through their offspring. Obviously your carnal sinful mind cannot understand how that will work, with no sin and death.

It worked for Adam and Eve in the Garden and all the sons of God on the earth created on the 6th day, until Adam disobeyed, and allowed sin and death into creation.

I don't know what nonsense you're talking about, but what I was saying was in relation to what most Premills believe. You have a belief all to yourself. I would prefer refuting things that most Premills believe than taking time to refute something that only you believe and that no one else has or ever will believe.