The Rapture - At Any Hour

[Spiritual Israelite]

Which post was that?

Much love!

Post #8.

 

[marks]

Post #8.

Keeping in mind, this.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


As if it makes sense Luke 19:15-19 is still applicable once 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. Clearly, regardless what it looks like to have authority over cities, this is meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled yet is meaning after Christ has bodily returned. Therefore, there has to be period of time after Christ has returned and before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled that can explain this authority given over these cities. It doesn't matter what that might or might not look like. What matters is, it makes zero sense for this to still be applicable once 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled.

I understand David to be saying,

There will come a time when Jesus will be ruler over all. After Jesus returns, He will give rulership of cities to His servants, but that rulership will be handed over to Jesus when the time comes.

Considering that Jesus gives this rulership when He comes, and then that rulership reverts to Him at some future time, David surmises a period of time separating the giving of rule and the rule being given back to Jesus, during which those so rewarded will have a time to rule those cities.

@Davidpt please let me know if I misunderstand.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I understand David to be saying,

There will come a time when Jesus will be ruler over all. After Jesus returns, He will give rulership of cities to His servants, but that rulership will be handed over to Jesus when the time comes.

Considering that Jesus gives this rulership when He comes, and then that rulership reverts to Him at some future time, David surmises a period of time separating the giving of rule and the rule being given back to Jesus, during which those so rewarded will have a time to rule those cities.

@Davidpt please let me know if I misunderstand.

Much love!

But, what he was claiming in that post is that he was debunking both pre-trib and Amil and I'm not seeing where he debunked Amil. If you look at 1 Cor 15:24-28, you can see that Jesus has delivered His kingdom to the Father at that point. So, how can 1 Cor 15:28 have something to do with Jesus giving temporary rewards at that point rather than eternal rewards. I saw no explanation for that. Once Jesus delivers His kingdom to the Father then that means He had already been reigning at that point, so that can't be when Jesus starts to reign on the earth, as premils believe. So, I'm just not seeing at all how what he said has anything to do with debunking Amil.

As for your explanation, I'm not sure if he will agree with your understanding of what he said. I don't think he believes that Jesus will give up His rulership when He comes and then get it back later. I don't know of any scripture which teaches something like that. The fact that you had to ask him to tell you if you misunderstand shows that you also are not sure of what he was saying. It's not clear.

Also, I'm being made out to be the bad guy here. And, yeah, maybe I've posted too many LOLs. I can try to cut down on that. But, just keep in mind that in a post where he was refuting something about pretrib he decided to get some digs in at Amil at the same time for no good reason. So, he's not Mr. Innocent here himself.

 

[marks]

But, what he was claiming in that post is that he was debunking both pre-trib and Amil and I'm not seeing where he debunked Amil. If you look at 1 Cor 15:24-28, you can see that Jesus has delivered His kingdom to the Father at that point. So, how can 1 Cor 15:28 have something to do with Jesus giving temporary rewards at that point rather than eternal rewards. I saw no explanation for that. Once Jesus delivers His kingdom to the Father then that means He had already been reigning at that point, so that can't be when Jesus starts to reign on the earth, as premils believe. So, I'm just not seeing at all how what he said has anything to do with debunking Amil.

I'm not saying anything about his overall arguments, you had asked about a particular point, and I shared my understanding, to demonstrate that it could in fact be followed, I did it. That is, IF @Davidpt confirms I have the correct understanding.

This is a great way to confirm our understanding of each other, called Reflective Listening. We listen to the other guy, and "reflect back", we say it back to them in our own words, and they can say, Yes, that's right, or, No, it's more like such and such. Then we again say our understanding in our own words, and repeat the process until the other person says, Yes, that's right, you understand!

As far as debunking Amil, this would require a time between the second coming and when Jesus hands the kingdom to the Father, which would presumably be the kingdom age.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not saying anything about his overall arguments, you had asked about a particular point, and I shared my understanding, to demonstrate that it could in fact be followed, I did it. That is, IF @Davidpt confirms I have the correct understanding.

This is a great way to confirm our understanding of each other, called Reflective Listening. We listen to the other guy, and "reflect back", we say it back to them in our own words, and they can say, Yes, that's right, or, No, it's more like such and such. Then we again say our understanding in our own words, and repeat the process until the other person says, Yes, that's right, you understand!

Much love!

Yeah, that's fine. So, hopefully, he clarifies what he was saying. I'm not even sure how what he was saying debunked pretrib, either, honestly. It just wasn't clear to me at all.

 

[Davidpt]

LOL! You are very delusional. You have proven nothing here as it relates to Amil. Not even close.

I can deal with a LOL in regards to that. That's understandable on your part when I make comments like that, that you would find that laughable. I have no issues with LOLs in that regard. Those LOLs are perfectly fine. I get it. But that is not the only thing you apply LOLs to me. I will just leave it at that.

You mentioned the end of the age. Tell me how you interpret this passage:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

First of all, what is the subject? Is it not the kingdom of heaven? Do you perhaps think every single person on the planet is in the kingdom of heaven or something? Do you perhaps think when the net is cast into the sea that it catches every single fish in the sea or something?

The point the parable is making is that, 'not once saved always saved', that this is Biblical. THe point about catching good fish and bad fish is that, in the church there are both profitable servants of His and there are unprofitable servants of His. The good fish represent the former. The bad fish represent the latter.

IOW, if context means anything at all, per this context then, the good and bad fish do not represent every single person on the planet, because if it did the net would catch every single fish in the sea. Except it obviously doesn't nor can since not every single person on the planet is in view here to begin with, since not every single person on the planet is in the kingdom of heaven as your doctrine apparently teaches.

One reason you don't understand me is because I tend to interpret these Scriptures in question, in context, and you don't. Your doctrine teaches that every single person on the planet is in the kingdom of heaven. IOW, it defies common sense, since not every single person on the planet can be in the kingdom of heaven. As if every single practicing rapist on the planet, for example, they are in the kingdom of heaven.

No wonder we can't see eye to eye a lot of the time. No wonder we are not on the same page a lot of the time. No wonder you laugh at pretty much everything I post. Because in your world, to interpret something in context like I tend to do, you find the idea laughable, apparently, therefore, you laugh at anyone doing that, especially when it causes a conflict with your doctrines.


I don't know why some of you insist you are always interpreting everything in context, when parables, such as you submitted, couldn't possibly be meaning every single person on the planet, that every single person on the planet is in the kingdom of heaven, that the net thrown into the sea, that it catches every single fish in the sea.

Try actually interpreting things in context rather than claiming you are doing this when you really aren't. It is not reasonable that every single person on the planet can be in the kingdom of heaven. The parable involving wheat and tares already teaches this since the tares only represent the unprofitable servants in the church, and not every single unsaved person on the planet as your doctrine teaches. Tares resemble wheat in it's early stages. What does wheat represent in the parable? There you go then, tares represent phony sheep, they represent the goats in the church.

Unfortunately, you are not teachable because you place yourself above someone like me. You would rather ridicule me instead. You don't take anything I say serious. You don't even take the time to consider any of it. You find it laughable instead, or something that makes no sense, so on and so on. Then you paint that with a broad brush, that because you can't understand me at times, means no one else can either. As if you have the right to speak for every single person reading these posts. Not everyone reading these posts are even posting in here. I don't what they are thinking one way or the other. And you certainly don't either, though you act like you do.

And finally I will end this post like this. In your case, though you expect it out of others to humble themselves when their doctrines are proved to be false, that they should admit it, you in turn are unable to do the same when your doctrines are proved to be false. You obviously place yourself above everyone else, that your theology is flawless, no holes anywhere, it all fits perfectly, therefore, the issue is not with any of your doctrines, it's with any of these other doctrines that don't align with yours.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I can deal with a LOL in regards to that. That's understandable on your part when I make comments like that, that you would find that laughable. I have no issues with LOLs in that regard. Those LOLs are perfectly fine. I get it. But that is not the only thing you apply LOLs to me. I will just leave it at that.

I understand, and since that does bother you, I will make an effort to cut down on that. It's not worth it. I'd rather just discuss things without creating distractions and I'll try to keep the LOLs to myself.

First of all, what is the subject? Is it not the kingdom of heaven? Do you perhaps think every single person on the planet is in the kingdom of heaven or something? Do you perhaps think when the net is cast into the sea that it catches every single fish in the sea or something?

The point the parable is making is that, 'not once saved always saved', that this is Biblical.

Goodness sakes. Why do you have to bring NOSAS vs OSAS into everything? That is completely unnecessary. The parable isn't about that at all. What the parable is about is God judging all people and seeing who is worthy to inherit the kingdom of heaven and who isn't. To try to say it isn't in regards to all people requires you to ignore that it talks about the fishermen gathering "all kinds of fish". Jesus was going out of his way to show that no one was excepted from who will be gathered for judgment at the end of the age.

From God's perspective, all people are His people in a sense because He creates all people. But, when it comes to who will inherit His kingdom, He will first gather all people together and then separate everyone into two groups, just as He portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 as well. Jesus said "he who is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30). So, all people are either with Him or against Him. You lose sight of that and try to put people into more than one group. Belonging to Jesus or not is the basis on which people will be separated when He comes to judge all people at His second coming at the end of this temporal age.

THe point about catching good fish and bad fish is that, in the church there are both profitable servants of His and there are unprofitable servants of His. The good fish represent the former. The bad fish represent the latter.

No. You need to take into account what Jesus had said not long before that. Again, He said "he who is not with me is against me". (Matthew 12:30). He put all people into two groups. Why do you think that He would never talk about people not in the church in relation to judgment? That's what you apparently think. But, He did. In Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 He talked about the judgment of all people. Paul wrote that all people will appear before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves (Romans 14:10-12). And Jesus talked about that. It will happen when He comes at the ed of the age.

IOW, if context means anything at all, per this context then, the good and bad fish do not represent every single person on the planet, because if it did the net would catch every single fish in the sea.

You are missing the context. It does indicate that the net catches ever single fish in the sea. Remember, this is a parable, so don't take it too literally. That's why He said the net wasn't taken ashore until it was full. That represented all fish being caught in the net. All people will be judged at the end of the age. All people are either with Jesus or against Him. The good fish represent those who are with Jesus and the bad fish represent those who are against Him.

Except it obviously doesn't nor can since not every single person on the planet is in view here to begin with, since not every single person on the planet is in the kingdom of heaven as your doctrine apparently teaches.

You are misinterpreting what He is saying. He was talking about what the kingdom of heaven is like. He does NOT indicate that all of the fish in the net represents all people being in the kingdom of heaven. No. He is saying that those who actually will inherit the kingdom of heaven are only the good fish. The bad fish, in contrast, represent people who are cast into the furnace of fire rather than inheriting the kingdom of heaven. So, you are WRONG in claiming that my doctrine apparently teaches that every single person on the planet is in the kingdom of heaven. The topic Jesus was discussing is all people being judged at the end of the age when He will determine who will inherit the kingdom and who will be cast into the fire. Just like is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 as well.

One reason you don't understand me is because I tend to interpret these Scriptures in question, in context, and you don't.

This is just plain false. I am looking at context by looking at Matthew 12:30 which says that, from Jesus's perspective, all people are either with Him or against Him. I look at Matthew 13:47-50 using that context, so don't tell me I'm not interpreting these scriptures in context.

Your doctrine teaches that every single person on the planet is in the kingdom of heaven.

And here you said it again. Why do you misrepresent my view so often? It's a fact that you do. Only you know why. Can you explain that? Maybe because you just make assumptions about my doctrine without knowing or understanding what I believe? Is that it? Never have I said that my doctrine teaches that every single person on the planet is in the kingdom of heaven.

IOW, it defies common sense, since not every single person on the planet can be in the kingdom of heaven.

And I don't claim that. The parable is about who will inherit the kingdom and who won't. Obviously, not all will. So, you are misrepresenting my doctrine.

As if every single practicing rapist on the planet, for example, they are in the kingdom of heaven.

You just double, triple and quadruple down on misrepresenting my view. It's really incredible. Instead of taking the time to understand what I actually believe, you decided to just make assumptions that misrepresent what I believe and then made yourself look very bad in the process.

No wonder we can't see eye to eye a lot of the time. No wonder we are not on the same page a lot of the time. No wonder you laugh at pretty much everything I post.

Yes, because when you misrepresent my view so badly, I can't help but to just laugh at it sometimes. Stop making so many assumptions.

Because in your world, to interpret something in context like I tend to do, you find the idea laughable, apparently, therefore, you laugh at anyone doing that, especially when it causes a conflict with your doctrines.

Total nonsense. Of course I believe in interpreting scripture in context and you know it. We just disagree on the context sometimes. I would not make all these kinds of false accusations against you like you're doing to me. But, I'm the bad guy. Okay then.

I don't know why some of you insist you are always interpreting everything in context, when parables, such as you submitted, couldn't possibly be meaning every single person on the planet, that every single person on the planet is in the kingdom of heaven, that the net thrown into the sea, that it catches every single fish in the sea.

That's not what I'm saying. Do you have any idea how much time you have wasted on thses forums over the year making straw man arguments. It's a lot, that's for sure. It's time you can't get back. For some reeason, you basically repeat yourself over and over again, too, which does not help matters.

Unfortunately, you are not teachable because you place yourself above someone like me. You would rather ridicule me instead. You don't take anything I say serious. You don't even take the time to consider any of it.

David, would I have discussed these things with you so many times over the years if I didn't take anything you said seriously? Give me a break. It's not as if I laugh at literally everything you say. Not even close. But, you are very sensitive and can't handle it very well when things get heated, so I will have to account for that.

And finally I will end this post like this. In your case, though you expect it out of others to humble themselves when their doctrines are proved to be false, that they should admit it, you in turn are unable to do the same when your doctrines are proved to be false. You obviously place yourself above everyone else, that your theology is flawless, no holes anywhere, it all fits perfectly, therefore, the issue is not with any of your doctrines, it's with any of these other doctrines that don't align with yours.

You haven't proven anything except that you did not bother to get clarification on how exactly I interpret the parable and you made assumptions instead and ended up wasting your time while badly misrepresenting my view.

 

[Timtofly]

So, in that case, maybe you can tell me why he concludes that rewards given when Christ comes have to be temporary rather than eternal? I didn't see where he explained why that has to be the case.

Are going going to be eternally, one who makes fun of people and calls every one ridiculous, or is that only temporary?

You seem to already have your eternal reward, no?

 

[Douggg]

@Davidpt

David, could you please clarify... by NOSAS, do you mean... Not once saved, but always saved". In other words, are you meaning by that, a person is not saved over and over, but only once and that one time will be forever ?

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Separately, one of the things I have mentioned is Hebrew 6:4-6, seems to indicate that a person can renounce their salvation if they turn away from believing in Jesus, renouncing Him as their savior. And cannot be saved again.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I am thinking about persons, for example, who have been born again, but who later renounce Jesus as their Savior, and become a Muslim, which Islam says Jesus did not die on the cross, but God put someone else there instead in his place.

 

[David in NJ]

But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:43-44

As for the times and the seasons of all of that....

It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. - Acts 1:7

And as far as who goes and who stays...

And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:3-4

But this will be a pretty good indication...

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

If you confuse your short life on this earth with the Second Coming, you will be lead astray by the LIES of pre-trib rapture.

Knowing the LORD, being filled with the Holy Spirit, feeding on the Word, walking in the Spirit and preaching the Gospel are those ATTRIBUTES of a Life Lead by God.
LIVING this Way will never leave you 'behind' and when HE comes for you, you will Rejoice, whether at your death or should you be alive/remaining at His Second Coming.

SHALOM

 

[MA2444]

As for your explanation, I'm not sure if he will agree with your understanding of what he said. I don't think he believes that Jesus will give up His rulership when He comes and then get it back later. I don't know of any scripture which teaches something like that. The fact that you had to ask him to tell you if you misunderstand shows that you also are not sure of what he was saying. It's not clear.

Jesus doesnt give up His rulership when He comes. They must be talking about the Millenium. This is prolly when the Meek inherit the earth. Jesus will rule from Jerusalem but who will run the cities? His people. The Christians will be in charg of local governments! That even sounds good! Commerce will have to continue during the millenium. Many will be farmers and grow their own food others who work & live in the city will have to go buy some food or so it would seem to me. I dont think there will be Political Parties because it will be a Monarchy and not a Republic of the People.

So it wont be a matter of who is in power because Jesus is in power in Jerusalem and His LT.s and SGRs run the place.
I'm not sure, I'll have to check with my boss on that...Sally book a flight to Jerusalem!

 

[rockytopva]

God has commanded me to be ready for in such an hour I think not the Son of man cometh. So... I am every hour in error.

 

[David in NJ]

God has commanded me to be ready for in such an hour I think not the Son of man cometh. So... I am every hour in error.

Great - stay with it.

Just make sure you are not deceived by the error of pre-trib rapture.

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand.

“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Always remember His words of Truth

 

[David in NJ]

@rockytopva @marks @MA2444 @Douggg

Many of us Saints in Christ are going to sleep, some now, others a little later depending on where you are at.

Will JESUS leave us 'behind' because we needed to get rest as He commanded us???

Good Night

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus doesnt give up His rulership when He comes. They must be talking about the Millenium. This is prolly when the Meek inherit the earth. Jesus will rule from Jerusalem but who will run the cities? His people. The Christians will be in charg of local governments! That even sounds good! Commerce will have to continue during the millenium. Many will be farmers and grow their own food others who work & live in the city will have to go buy some food or so it would seem to me. I dont think there will be Political Parties because it will be a Monarchy and not a Republic of the People.

So it wont be a matter of who is in power because Jesus is in power in Jerusalem and His LT.s and SGRs run the place.
I'm not sure, I'll have to check with my boss on that...Sally book a flight to Jerusalem!

The 144k are his cabinet and advisors carrying out His will.

"These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

 

[MA2444]

The 144k are his cabinet and advisors carrying out His will.

"These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

That makes more sense dont it? Lol.

 

[Timtofly]

Great - stay with it.

Just make sure you are not deceived by the error of pre-trib rapture.

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand.

“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Always remember His words of Truth

You do realize that this was also given by Jesus when He was on the earth the first time?

Why do people think that Jesus cannot be on the earth at the same time as false Messianic figures and other false prophets?

Just because Jesus said do not go after false Christs, does not mean that He will not be here on the earth at the same time.

I am pretty sure the redeemed will know the difference between a rapture and the teachings of a human claiming to be Christ. You really take believers to be that stupid? Not to mention, impossible.

The church will not even be on the earth after the Second Coming. That will be the removal prior to the Judgment on Jacob (Israel) during the 7 Trumpets.

Many use these verses as proof that Jesus will not be on the earth, but the church will be. That interpretation is a direct contradiction to Matthew 13 and Mathew 25. Jesus will be on the earth during a time of great tribulation. Jesus told any who would listen, that any, at that time, should understand the difference between Him being on the earth and those claiming to be Christ. Obviously the disciples who received that message heeded that warning in the first century, but have since been removed, so the warning no longer applies to them, but directly to those alive at the Second Coming.

 

[David in NJ]

You do realize that this was also given by Jesus when He was on the earth the first time?

Why do people think that Jesus cannot be on the earth at the same time as false Messianic figures and other false prophets?

Just because Jesus said do not go after false Christs, does not mean that He will not be here on the earth at the same time.

I am pretty sure the redeemed will know the difference between a rapture and the teachings of a human claiming to be Christ. You really take believers to be that stupid? Not to mention, impossible.

The church will not even be on the earth after the Second Coming. That will be the removal prior to the Judgment on Jacob (Israel) during the 7 Trumpets.

Many use these verses as proof that Jesus will not be on the earth, but the church will be. That interpretation is a direct contradiction to Matthew 13 and Mathew 25. Jesus will be on the earth during a time of great tribulation. Jesus told any who would listen, that any, at that time, should understand the difference between Him being on the earth and those claiming to be Christ. Obviously the disciples who received that message heeded that warning in the first century, but have since been removed, so the warning no longer applies to them, but directly to those alive at the Second Coming.

Why do people think that Jesus cannot be on the earth at the same time as false Messianic figures and other false prophets?

@marks

THREE Irrevocable Reasons Why JESUS will NOT be here:

#1 - Jesus said HE will NOT Descend from Heaven (or be back on earth) from the time HE ascended until AFTER the rise of the Antichrist

#2 - Jesus said the Gospel must be preached to all nations and then the end will come.

#3 - Jesus said HE will NOT Return until after the "tribulation of those days"

and there are MORE confirmations of these THREE Irrevocable Dictates from the LORD Jesus Christ

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You do realize that this was also given by Jesus when He was on the earth the first time?

Why do people think that Jesus cannot be on the earth at the same time as false Messianic figures and other false prophets?

Oh, I don't know. Probably because scripture never teaches this nonsense? That would be my guess.

Just because Jesus said do not go after false Christs, does not mean that He will not be here on the earth at the same time.

LOL. Please ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[marks]

@marks

THREE Irrevocable Reasons Why JESUS will NOT be here:

Just because Jesus said do not go after false Christs, does not mean that He will not be here on the earth at the same time.

I don't hold to this. Kind of makes me wonder how much you actually have gleaned of what I do think. Anyway, I'm used to being stereotyped with others, only it makes discussion unwieldy.

Much love!