The Prophetic Timeline: Why Jesuit Futurists/Jesuit Preterists Ignore It

[Phoneman777]

I believe he was talking about sinful man in general during a future time during which there would be a mass falling away from the faith.

In what universe is this not Jesuit Futurism?

The point of it is to direct the attention of the people away from the papacy toward a future expectation of the rise of the Man of Sin, and idea which was born out of the papal Counter-Reformation which sole purpose was to overthrow the Protestant Reformation - because the entire Christian world at that time was pointing to the papacy as the Man of Sin!

 

[Douggg]

"Church" simply means "gathering of called ones" which accurately describes both Israel and Christians.

And, to get back to the point, "antichrist" goes out from those who are gathered together in the name of Christ - he doesn't arise outside the church and then enter it as your "Jewish antichrist" idea suggests. Judas started within but committed apostasy, as did the papist antichrist which took over the church of the Dark Ages.

Judas was never a part of the church of Jesus Christ - to go out from.

In Matthew 16:18, Jesus said He would build his church based on what Peter said in Matthew 16:16.

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Judas did not believe Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. The church that Jesus built is based upon the gospel of salvation which was not understood by the disciples until after the death and resurrection Jesus, in Luke 24:44-48.

Judas hung himself before Jesus was crucified. And Judas never understood the gospel of salvation.

To understand the concept of the Antichrist, a person first needs to understand the concept of the Christ... which that concept did not originate with the church, but by Jewish tradition of a hope for messiah, King of Israel. Which the Jews (Judaism) are still looking for today.

The Antichrist will be anointed the King of Israel, thought to be messiah. Meaning that he (1) has to be a Jew (2) his religion must be Judaism.

The reformers and later EGW (Ellen G. White) got it wrong in their thinking that the pope/papacy was the Antichrist/beast person.

 

[Douggg]

The idea that the Holy Ghost was not "in" people of the OT - only present "with them" is churchianity bulldookey.

Countless examples like Exodus 35:31 KJV of people being "filled with God's Spirit" - the difference is that in the OT, the Holy Spirit was not poured out in the fullness that it was in the NT which empowered the church to go forth with the Great Commission.

If you were correct, David would have prayed, "send not away Thy holy spirit from my side".

No one is born again by the Holy Spirit without believing upon Jesus's death on the cross for atonement for their sins, and Jesus's resurrection in hopes for the redemption of their body, for eternal life. The Holy Spirit lives in the soul of a saved person forever.

The fact is that everyone in the OT is saved exactly the same way as we in the NT - by faith. "The just shall live by faith" is an OT as well as NT principle.

Not saved in the OT, but considered righteous.

John Nelson Darby, Plymouth Brethren member and the "father of Dispensationalism" which chops up the Bible so that we can make it say anything we want.

I have not said anything about Darby. Nor used Darby as the basis for anything I wrote or believe. Nor am I a dispensationalist.

 

[Douggg]

In what universe is this not Jesuit Futurism?

The point of it is to direct the attention of the people away from the papacy toward a future expectation of the rise of the Man of Sin, and idea which was born out of the papal Counter-Reformation which sole purpose was to overthrow the Protestant Reformation - because the entire Christian world at that time was pointing to the papacy as the Man of Sin!

"Jesuit Futurism" is an SDA catch phrase slogan used by SDA members to support SDA's belief that the pope/papacy is the Antichrist.

Know what Christ means from the bible.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

The pope/papacy is not considered the messiah. The messiah is a concept stemming from Jewish tradition of a promised King of Israel, descended from David, who will lead the Jews and the world into a messianic age of peace and safety.

1Thessalonians5:3 talks about a coming false messianic age, which will be when the Antichrist person, a false messiah, is anointed the King of Israel, thought-to-be messiah. The world saying peace and safety - until it all implodes when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, revealing himself as the man of sin and not the messiah after all.

In 1Thessalonians5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Those things are going to take place during this present generation. All of the prophecies, including Jesus's return, before the end of 2037.

 

[covenantee]

The reformers and later EGW (Ellen G. White) got it wrong in their thinking that the pope/papacy was the Antichrist/beast person.

Reformation deniers affirm the following antichrist declarations:

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

 

[Douggg]

@Phoneman777

In SDA belief, what happens to the Vatican and the office of the Pope ?

And who are the two individuals, in Revelation 19:20, the beast and the false prophet who will be cast into the lake of fire ?

Is pope Francis the beast person ? (imo, no way)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again, verse 8 is in two parts. Part 1, I have not addressed yet.

8a. The beast that was (alive) and is not (alive) and will come out of the bottomless pit. Obviously, at least 2000 years old, and is presently in the bottomless pit, to some day ascend out of.

So it is referring to a disembodied spirit. The body of which, died a long time ago, before John's time. I will get to that in my next post, who that was, and is not, and is in the bottomless pit to someday ascend out of.

8b. The beast that was (alive), is not (alive), yet is (alive). The forth coming king eight, having been one of the 7 kings - i.e. men.

Part of the mystery is - which of the 7 kings will become the beast-king ?

It can be solved by reviewing the crowns on the 7 heads, in Chapter 17, Chapter 12, Chapter 13.

Chapter 17 - no crowns, the prophecy of the 7 kings, incomplete. First century.
Chapter 12 - crowns, the prophecy of the 7 kings complete. 7 years to go in that chapter, before Jesus returns.
Chapter 13 - no crowns, the prophecy of the 7 kings, over. King 7 has been killed. Has become the beast-king, with 42 months to go before Jesus returns.

So the forthcoming king 7 will become king 8, the beast-king. King of what ?

King of the end-times manifestation of the Roman Empire. King 7 is the little horn person of Daniel 7 and Daniel 8, who will have become leader over 10 EU leaders, i.e. the ten horns, which are said to be ten kings in Revelation 17:12, that will rule with the beast-king.

To me, this is all complete nonsense and not worth my time to respond to in detail. I told you that our views are so far apart that it makes it almost impossible to have a good discussion about it and now you have proven that to be true.

It's clear to me that the beast is the beast (not multiple beasts as you believe) and represents the world empire/kingdom/system at any given time in history. It may take on different forms over time, but it's not a case of there being one beast in Revelation 17:8a and a different beast entirely from that one in Revelation 17:8b. No, I can't buy that at all. Your doctrine is far too convoluted to be true. The truth is never that convoluted.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In what universe is this not Jesuit Futurism?

Don't tell me where I get my beliefs from! I don't get them from Jesuit Futurism! I don't believe in an individual future Antichrist as Jesuit Futurism does. You clearly are just skimming over what I'm saying and not paying close attention. I'm done with you on this topic since you clearly are not willing to be reasonable about it.

 

[covenantee]

@Phoneman777

In SDA belief, what happens to the Vatican and the office of the Pope ?

And who are the two individuals, in Revelation 19:20, the beast and the false prophet who will be cast into the lake of fire ?

Is pope Francis the beast person ? (imo, no way)

Since you're a Reformation denier, you must have some alternative explanation for the apostate papacy's following blasphemous claims:

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

What is your alternative explanation?

 

[Phoneman777]

Judas was never a part of the church of Jesus Christ - to go out from.

Wrong - just as Israel was "in the church in the wilderness" so Judas belonged to the "church of Jesus Christ".

In Matthew 16:18, Jesus said He would build his church based on what Peter said in Matthew 16:16.

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

If a lawyer sets out to "build" a firm, does that firm exist while he builds it, adding more and more partners?

Jesus began to "build" His church when He called Andrew and Peter and added Judas who later "went out".

Judas did not believe Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. The church that Jesus built is based upon the gospel of salvation which was not understood by the disciples until after the death and resurrection Jesus, in Luke 24:44-48.

1) You can't prove that.
2 I can prove Judas was a full church member that committed apostasy:

a) God only gives His Spirit "to them that obey Him" (Acts 5:32 KJV)
b) The impenitent sinner can't obey God even if he wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV)
c) The struggling saint Judas manifested the same Spiritual gifts as the others until he's overcome and lost.

And Judas never understood the gospel of salvation.

You just keep posting opinions as facts, don't you?

I showed you Judas was a struggling saint who was overcome by sin and eventually lost.

To understand the concept of the Antichrist, a person first needs to understand the concept of the Christ... which that concept did not originate with the church, but by Jewish tradition of a hope for messiah, King of Israel. Which the Jews (Judaism) are still looking for today.

You presume to instruct others about "antichrist" when you don't define it?'

"Anti-" and "Christos" means "in place of Christ" or "instead of Christ" or "in behalf of Christ" but you guys only recognize "against Christ" because to acknowledge the above demands he who searches for antichrist set a course for papal Rome, the only system that can be such.

The Antichrist will be anointed the King of Israel, thought to be messiah. Meaning that he (1) has to be a Jew (2) his religion must be Judaism.

Only one problem with that: that's not what the Bible says.

The reformers and later EGW (Ellen G. White) got it wrong in their thinking that the pope/papacy was the Antichrist/beast person.

They were absolutely spot on in naming the papacy as the antichrist, and Spurgeon was absolutely spot on when he said that when it comes to who Antichrist is, "no sane man ought to raise the question".

 

[Phoneman777]

No one is born again by the Holy Spirit without believing upon Jesus's death on the cross for atonement for their sins, and Jesus's resurrection in hopes for the redemption of their body, for eternal life. The Holy Spirit lives in the soul of a saved person forever.

Wrong - was not the Unmerciful Servant forgiven but later had that forgiveness revoked? What about those for whom it is impossible to "renew them again unto repentance" because of presumption? What about the "many" saints who allow widespread iniquity to kill their agape cold and dead, leaving them unable to endure to the end and lost?

OSAS has been thoroughly debunked by those of us who know that "Don't hold your breath" is no way to answer "do you promise to..." at a marriage ceremony.

Not saved in the OT, but considered righteous.

As if there's a difference

I have not said anything about Darby. Nor used Darby as the basis for anything I wrote or believe. Nor am I a dispensationalist.

You chop up the Bible as did Darby. The Jews have nothing to do with end times prophecy - it is the "Israel of God" aka "the church".

 

[Phoneman777]

"Jesuit Futurism" is an SDA catch phrase slogan used by SDA members to support SDA's belief that the pope/papacy is the Antichrist.

No it isn't. It's MY catchphrase which I use to point out to everyone exactly where their ideas originated.

1Thessalonians5:3 talks about a coming false messianic age, which will be when the Antichrist person, a false messiah, is anointed the King of Israel, thought-to-be messiah. The world saying peace and safety - until it all implodes when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, revealing himself as the man of sin and not the messiah after all.

No matter how you dress it up, it's still Jesuit Futurism in all it's shameful nakedness underneath.

There is no "coming future Antichrist" that sits down in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. Good gravy, man, you know full well that God would no sooner call a satanic rebuilt temple in Jerusalem "the Temple of God" than you would call your mother's house "the best little whorehouse near your house" - yet you just can't seem to put down the Jesuit Koolaid, friend.

In 1Thessalonians5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Those things are going to take place during this present generation. All of the prophecies, including Jesus's return, before the end of 2037.

I hope it's sooner than that. The sooner evildoers are annihilated in the Lake of Fire and pass out of existence for all eternity, the sooner the rest of us can get on with "eye hath not seen, ear hath not..."

 

[Phoneman777]

@Phoneman777 In SDA belief, what happens to the Vatican and the office of the Pope ?

The papacy is "beast" that will be cast into the Lake of Fire, but will first meet God's vengeance at the fiery Second Coming. God doesn't like it when people turn others away from Him to fables about how we're to earn forgiveness, nor does He like it when men claim to be God and claim the power to forgive sin, two things which are Biblically called "blasphemy".

And who are the two individuals, in Revelation 19:20, the beast and the false prophet who will be cast into the lake of fire ?

The papacy and Apostate Protestantism of which you are a part - the former is the "union of church and state" and the latter will make "an image" of the same thing, complete with religious laws of compulsion. They're going to force us to worship under penalty of death, as in the days of Daniel.

Is pope Francis the beast person ? (imo, no way)

A "beast" is a "kingdom" - the popes are merely those at the head of that kingdom.

 

[Phoneman777]

Don't tell me where I get my beliefs from! I don't get them from Jesuit Futurism! I don't believe in an individual future Antichrist as Jesuit Futurism does. You clearly are just skimming over what I'm saying and not paying close attention. I'm done with you on this topic since you clearly are not willing to be reasonable about it.

Somebody has to tell you that you're following Jesuit lies! Is not the watchman guilty of the blood of those who perish without first being warned?

 

[Douggg]

Wrong - just as Israel was "in the church in the wilderness" so Judas belonged to the "church of Jesus Christ".

The church in the wilderness was not the church of Jesus Christ. Judas Iscariot hung himself before the church of Jesus Christ came into existence in Luke 24:44-48.

Jesus began to "build" His church when He called Andrew and Peter and added Judas who later "went out".

The church of Jesus Christ did not exist until Luke 24:44-48, because his church is built on the gospel of salvation, which the disciples did not understand until Luke 24:44-48.

Luke 24:
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

1) You can't prove that.
2 I can prove Judas was a full church member that committed apostasy:

Judas Iscariot could not have committed apostasy of something he did not understand. The gospel of salvation was not understood by the disciples until Luke 24:44-48.

Judas Iscariot did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God messiah or else Judas Iscariot would not have betrayed him for thirty pieces of silver.

You just keep posting opinions as facts, don't you?

Luke 24:44-48 is not my opinion. In Luke 18:31-33, Jesus told the disciples that they were going to Jerusalem for him to die and on third day rise again - written by the prophets. Read it.

Then in Luke 18: 34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

None of the disciples, including Judas Iscariot, understood the gospel of salvation until after the resurrection and Jesus appearing to them in Luke 24:44-48 to open their minds to understanding it.

 

[Douggg]

You presume to instruct others about "antichrist" when you don't define it?'

"Anti-" and "Christos" means "in place of Christ" or "instead of Christ" or "in behalf of Christ" but you guys only recognize "against Christ" because to acknowledge the above demands he who searches for antichrist set a course for papal Rome, the only system that can be such.

The Antichrist is the instead of and against the true King of Israel messiah - Jesus. The pope/papacy is not qualified to be the King of Israel messiah, therefore cannot be the Antichrist.

 

[Douggg]

The papacy and Apostate Protestantism

The two individuals in Revelation 19:20, who will be cast alive into the lake of fire, are two men. "The papacy and Apostate Protestantism", differently, are organizations of made up of many men.

So try again.

 

[Douggg]

Since you're a Reformation denier, you must have some alternative explanation for the apostate papacy's following blasphemous claims:

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

What is your alternative explanation?

I am not against the Reformers breaking away from the control of the Popes and RCC hierarchy. What I am against is the assertion that the popes/papacy is the biblical Antichrist who is coming. I am also against the teachings of Ellen G. White regarding bible prophecy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Somebody has to tell you that you're following Jesuit lies!

Except that I'm not. You're being foolish by accusing me of that.

Is not the watchman guilty of the blood of those who perish without first being warned?

LOL. Get over yourself. You make me laugh.

 

[covenantee]

I am not against the Reformers breaking away from the control of the Popes and RCC hierarchy. What I am against is the assertion that the popes/papacy is the biblical Antichrist who is coming. I am also against the teachings of Ellen G. White regarding bible prophecy.

That's not the question, as you're well aware. The quotes are obviously claiming that the pope is another Christ, i.e. an antichrist. But you unsurprisingly insist on denying the obvious, which you must in order to perpetuate your antichristian Jesuit futurism.

Your inability to provide a credible alternative explanation for the quotes identifies your denials as illogical, irrational, and indefensible.