The Prophetic Timeline: Why Jesuit Futurists/Jesuit Preterists Ignore It

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

IndianaRob

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2023
931
261
63
54
Louisville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, we know the first is Babylon. The second is Medes-Persian since we are given the names of their kings. Chapter 8 is named by Gabriel as Greeece, and the only kingdom that comes after Greece (kingdom not anything but a kingdom) is pagan Rome who fits perfectly since they are the kingdom when the 70 weeks of years prophecy ends, and the Messiah arrives in the last week. Also, they are the same folks who destroyed everything in 70 AD.

And the little horn came out of the 4th kingdom - can not be Greece, the 3rd kingdom.... Can't have anything to do with the 4 generals since they are thrown out "towards the 4 winds" (representing the turmoil and instability after Alexander's death), and they are identified as the 4 heads in the 3rd kingdom in Chapter 7 - not part of the 4th beast in Chapter 7 that could not be compared to any animal on the earth....

This could go on..... but there is so much in Daniel to identify Rome (iron) as the 4th kingdom.....
Have you ever noticed in the Bible that the fourth thing in a group is many different than the other three?

Matthew Mark and Luke are basically the same whereas John is completely different.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego we’re human but the 4th was like the son of God.

The list goes on and on but the point is the fourth always points to spiritual things.

The fourth kingdom in Daniel is a supernatural kingdom, you can’t pin it down to an earthly nation.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
9,639
629
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Tim, are you SDA ?

Tim, the ten horns have crowns in Revelation 13, with 42 months left in the years, to rule with the beast-king.

Revelation 12, the ten horns - no crowns - 7 years in Revelation 12 - king 7 has come to power, so crowns on the 7 heads, but king 7 has not yet become the beast-king in Revelation 12.

Revelation 17, the ten horns - no crowns. the seven heads no crowns. Timing is first century. king 6 is ruling. kings 1,2,3,4,5 are passed.

The 7 kings are...
king 1 Julius Caesar
king 2 Augustus Caesar
king 3 Tiberius
king 4 Caligula
king 5 Claudius
king 6 Nero

king 7 end times little horn person

king 8 the beast-king (the little horn person killed and come back to life as the beast)

king 7 is the little horn person. Yet to come to power. When he comes to power as king 7, about 3 years later he will assassinated and brought back to life and becomes the beast - king 8. And continues to rule the short space of 42 months.

Revelation 17:
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
No, I am not SDA. I can read about history.

Revelation 12 is the historical beast from Satan's perspective. Revelation 13, is the same beast from man's perspective. Revelation 17 is the end of this same dragon / sea beast in regards to Satan as the 7th head; 8th kingdom.

Jesus is the 7th Kingdom announced at the 7th Trumpet.

The 7 heads have only been Babylon, Medes and Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, and then papal Rome or the Holy Roman Empire.

We have been in the dead 6th kingdom since the Reformation. Jesus will be the 7th, and Satan is the the 7th beast head, but the 8th kingdom, Mystery Babylon.

The 10 horns are 10 leaders after the Second Coming at the 5th and 6th Seals.

5 have fallen post the Reformation. The 6th will be healed but short lived between the 1 and last Trumpet. Jesus is announced king at the 7th Trumpet. Then 3.5 days later, Satan may be handed the kingdom for 42 months.
 

CTK

Active Member
Aug 13, 2024
962
168
43
71
Albuquerque
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Have you ever noticed in the Bible that the fourth thing in a group is many different than the other three?

Matthew Mark and Luke are basically the same whereas John is completely different.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego we’re human but the 4th was like the son of God.

The list goes on and on but the point is the fourth always points to spiritual things.

The fourth kingdom in Daniel is a supernatural kingdom, you can’t pin it down to an earthly nation.
That is a terrific thought. And you are right, the 4th kingdom is quite different. It comes in as pagan Rome but around 476 AD it is no more- it is slain and its body is destroyed (7:11). This s is when pagan Rome ceases to be and will be replaced by papal Rome who is headed by the “little horn.”

God selected 4 and only 4 kingdoms to come out of the sea. The 4th being Rome (pagan Rome), however, He did not bring either the little horn or papal Rome from out of the sea. Which is also why these two entities are the only two that are not mentioned in Chapter 2.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IndianaRob

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,460
263
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, I am not SDA. I can read about history.

Revelation 12 is the historical beast from Satan's perspective. Revelation 13, is the same beast from man's perspective. Revelation 17 is the end of this same dragon / sea beast in regards to Satan as the 7th head; 8th kingdom.
Tim, Revelation 12, verses 1-5 are a historic vision of events taking place at the time of Jesus's birth. Verses 1-5 identify the woman in the rest of Revelation 12 as being Israel.

Revelation 12, verses 6-17 are about the 7 year 70th week. Revelation 12:6, 1260 days being the first half. Revelation 12:14, the time/times/half time being the second half.

Revelation 13 is about the last 42 months of the 7 year 70th week.
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,460
263
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus is the 7th Kingdom announced at the 7th Trumpet.
Jesus is not a Kingdom.

The 7 heads have only been Babylon, Medes and Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, and then papal Rome or the Holy Roman Empire.
The 7 heads are 7 kings - not 7 kingdoms.

We have been in the dead 6th kingdom since the Reformation. Jesus will be the 7th, and Satan is the the 7th beast head, but the 8th kingdom, Mystery Babylon.
Revelation 17:10 says 7 kings - not 7 kingdoms. Satan is not a head on the beast. And there is no 8th kingdom. The seven heads are 7 king - not 7 kingdoms.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
9,639
629
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, I do believe that your interepretation is in line with "today's accepted interpretations." And that also throws much of th last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy some 2000 years into the future from the time of the cross. But for me, the verses 9:24-27 speak of the restoration of the city and the people (Daniel's), and end with the Messiah arriving on the first day of the 70th week to begin His ministry. In exactly 3.5 years into His ministry, He will be rejected by His people and crucified. He will confirm the New Covenant mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31- 34.

Now, the prince (small p) of the people who is to come is not the Messiah. This refers to the complete destruction in 70 AD by Titus and the Roman army. It is these people "pagan Rome" that will continue on in the Roman Empire until the 4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome) is slain and its body is destroyed (7:11). Soon, within 150 years, the little horn (papacy) will not only rise to take over the Christian Church, but will alsio replace pagan Rome in all secular matters. Thus, these "people" will become "people of the prince (little horn) who is to come.
Nope. The 70th week is not being flung into the future by Gabriel. I never posted that. Most church goers are Amil, and are taught the 70 weeks ended in the first century, if taught any prophecy at all.

Jesus is the 70th week. Only the Messiah part was fulfilled.

Unless you have historical evidence that Jesus came and sat on a throne in Jerusalem as the Prince to come, then that part of Daniel 9 has not happened to this day.

Gabriel clearly states Jesus is the Prince to come, and no other human. Both those who claim the Prince came in the first century, and those who think the entire 70th week are missing the point made in Daniel 9.

Jesus riding on a donkey was not the Prince to come part. Messiah was cut off after that point. Jesus did not rule on earth for a thousand years after the Cross, until 1000AD.

Daniel 9:27 is not a week of years. That week is not the 70th week. That is a week of days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. That is the week Jesus is declared King of every nation, after already sitting on a throne in a temple in Jerusalem during the final harvest.

The week of the Cross was after 3.5 years. The 7th Trumpet and the week in Daniel 9:27 is also after a period of time. But it will not be 3.5 years. As the Prince to come that time is shortened per Matthew 24:22

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

The time would have been 3.5 years, but for the promise above. Jesus is on the earth with His angels from the 6th Seal until the 7th Trumpet sounds.

Jesus' own people destroyed Jerusalem. Read Josephus. Titus was disgusted at what he found when he finally broke through the walls. The Romans may have brought the walls down, but they had to level the city, because it was not fit to live in.

There were no capital letters in Hebrew. That is a translators prerogative.
 
Last edited:

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
9,639
629
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Tim, Revelation 12, verses 1-5 are a historic vision of events taking place at the time of Jesus's birth. Verses 1-5 identify the woman in the rest of Revelation 12 as being Israel.

Revelation 12, verses 6-17 are about the 7 year 70th week. Revelation 12:6, 1260 days being the first half. Revelation 12:14, the time/times/half time being the second half.

Revelation 13 is about the last 42 months of the 7 year 70th week.
Revelation 13 only tells us there is a mouth (the false prophet).

The 6th head was healed after the Second Coming in the Seals.

Revelation 12 is about Israel being protected. These are the sheep in Matthew 25. The one third remnant. They do not stay on the earth during Satan's 42 months. The 7th Trumpet is when Satan is cast out of heaven and only has a week left before he is bound for a thousand years.


That is, unless, after 3.5 days the third woe happens, and the third woe is that 42 month period. Then the last half of the week mentined in Daniel 9:27 is placed on hold. The two witnesses lay dead for the last 3.5 days of the week of the 7th Trumpet after the 42 months are over.


One has to agree that the church is gone at the 5th Seal. The sheep are gone to the sea of glass by the 6th Trumpet. The wheat is gathered by the the 7th Thunder. At the 7th Trumpet the final harvest is over. Even billions have been tossed alive into the LOF. The only humans left will be those who are beheaded and those who are marked as removed from the Lamb's book of life while still physically alive in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Those beheaded are physically dead obviously, not still alive at the end of those 42 months. The 2 witnesses are the last to die, and that is when the 7 vials are poured out, during those last 3.5 days of Daniel 9:27.

Revelation 13 is explaining the third woe as if it will happen. Revelation 14 is explaining the week of the 7th Trumpet if the third woe does not happen. Revelation 15 is the escape into the wilderness onto the sea of glass.

Revelation 16 is after the 42 months. Revelation 17 and 18 are describing the 42 months, and the destruction of that kingdom. Revelation 19 is Jesus returning with those from the sea of glass and the 144k. The church does not return.


The church is not the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. The 144k, the sheep, and the wheat of the final harvest are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom.

There are billions already in heaven in Paradise. They do not come down until the New Jerusalem descends after the Millennial Kingdom.
 

CTK

Active Member
Aug 13, 2024
962
168
43
71
Albuquerque
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Nope. The 70th week is not being flung into the future by Gabriel. I never posted that. Most church goers are Amil, and are taught the 70 weeks ended in the first century, if taught any prophecy at all.

Jesus is the 70th week. Only the Messiah part was fulfilled.

Unless you have historical evidence that Jesus came and sat on a throne in Jerusalem as the Prince to come, then that part of Daniel 9 has not happened to this day.

Gabriel clearly states Jesus is the Prince to come, and no other human. Both those who claim the Prince came in the first century, and those who think the entire 70th week are missing the point made in Daniel 9.

Jesus riding on a donkey was not the Prince to come part. Messiah was cut off after that point. Jesus did not rule on earth for a thousand years after the Cross, until 1000AD.

Daniel 9:27 is not a week of years. That week is not the 70th week. That is a week of days fir the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. That is the week Jesus is declared King of every nation, after already sitting on a throne in a temple in Jerusalem during the final harvest.

The week of the Cross was after 3.5 years. The 7th Trumpet and the week in Daniel 9:27 is also after a period of time. But it will not be 3.5 years. As the Prince to come that time is shortened per Matthew 24:22

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

The time would have been 3.5 years, but for the promise above. Jesus is on the earth with His angels from the 6th Seal until the 7th Trumpet sounds.

Jesus' own people destroyed Jerusalem. Read Josephus. Titus was disgusted at what he found when he finally broke through the walls. The Romans may have brought the walls down, but they had to level the city, because it was not fit to live in.

There were no capital letters in Hebrew. That is a translators prerogative.
Wow! That is certainly an interesting interpretation.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
9,639
629
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus is not a Kingdom.


The 7 heads are 7 kings - not 7 kingdoms.


Revelation 17:10 says 7 kings - not 7 kingdoms. Satan is not a head on the beast. And there is no 8th kingdom. The seven heads are 7 king - not 7 kingdoms.
You are missing a lot of proof here. Jesus is the 7th King of the 7th Kingdom. Jesus is the 7th Kingdom as in the entire Day of the Lord. There may not even be an 8th kingdom.

The 7 heads:

"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

The heads are mountains in Revelation 12, 13, and 17. What is a mountain? This woman is not a city that had relationships with 7 individual kings. Yes, John declared 5 kings had fallen, referring to the mountains. These are historical kings not pick and choose 7 individuals from history.

This is the 8th kingdom:

"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

It says right there "the eighth". That is not a grammatical error. The 7th Kingdom is not part of the 7 heads nor mountains, nor historical kingdoms.

So we have a beast who is one of the 7 heads, but not the 7th Kingdom. Satan is the ruler of the world as the 8th kingdom. Satan was, is not a human, and numbered among the other historical kingdoms. Do you not remember that Satan offered the kingdoms of the world to Jesus after the Baptism of Jesus. How could he do that if he was not already the dragon with 6 other heads at that time? The 5th and 6th "head" had not even happened at that point.

The 5th head were the ten toes of Daniel 2. They were historically between Rome and the Reformation. There has not been a "single world kingdom" since the Reformation as that was when Daniel's image was ground to powder and no longer existed, and John said 5 had fallen. That was the point of the Reformation. The 6th kingdom has a mortal wound.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen (Daniel's image gone), and one is (mortal wound healed after the 6th Seal destruction), and the other (Jesus or Satan) is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

Jesus is only King for 3.5 days if Satan gets Revelation 13, the third woe.

"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

The beast in these verses is Satan the 7th head, the dragon, that old serpent, the son of perdition.

The ten horns will not even be known until the third woe, if not part of the 6th kingdom restoration, but they are not current leaders of current nations. They literally have no kingdoms.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet."

They cannot be the ten toes of Daniel 2.

You cannot place Revelation both as talking about the first century mountains/kingdoms and future at the Second Coming both at the same time. The dragon, sea beast, and scarlet colored beast are stretched out over history since Daniel.

So Revelation cannot be talking about 5 Roman emperors and then end up with 2 future Roman leaders. John is still talking about the 7 heads of all 3 perspectives of the historical earthly empires who had relationships with Jerusalem and Israel.

The heads are all past, and the 6th one is almost over from the historical perspective. The only one left is Satan. You cannot just dismiss what the 7th Trumpet actually does:

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

How can this not be the 7th world kingdom?
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,460
263
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation 13 only tells us there is a mouth (the false prophet).
Tim, copy and paste the verses of Revelation 13 you are referring to.

The false prophet verses don't begin until Revelation 13:11.

Revelation 12 is about Israel being protected. These are the sheep in Matthew 25. The one third remnant. They do not stay on the earth during Satan's 42 months. The 7th Trumpet is when Satan is cast out of heaven and only has a week left before he is bound for a thousand years.
Tim, copy and paste what specific verses that say that Israel does not stay on earth during the 42 months. 42 months is not in Revelation 12.

When Satan is cast out of (the second) heaven, he will have a time/times/half time left, Revelation 12:14. a time/times/haft time represents roughly 3 1/2 years.
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,460
263
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are missing a lot of proof here. Jesus is the 7th King of the 7th Kingdom. Jesus is the 7th Kingdom as in the entire Day of the Lord. There may not even be an 8th kingdom.
Tim, Jesus is not a kingdom. And Jesus is not the 7th king of Revelation 17:10.

The 7 heads in Revelation 17:10 are 7 kings, not kingdoms

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
9,639
629
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Tim, copy and paste the verses of Revelation 13 you are referring to.

The false prophet verses don't begin until Revelation 13:11.


Tim, copy and paste what specific verses that say that Israel does not stay on earth during the 42 months. 42 months is not in Revelation 12.

When Satan is cast out of (the second) heaven, he will have a time/times/half time left, Revelation 12:14. a time/times/haft time represents roughly 3 1/2 years.
The false prophet is never called a beast once in the whole book. The only time the false prophet is described is here:

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Even here the entire sea beast is called a "him". The mouth is the false prophet. This is all of the humans mentioned as pertaining to history other than the ten individuals who join with Satan. The ten horns are not kingdoms.

42 months can be divided into times, time, and half a time. 24 + 12 + 6. That is still 3.5 years.

This is Israel "in the wilderness": Revelation 15:2-4

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness."

How else can they get victory over Satan?

Think about it. If the 42 months do not split the week of the 7th Trumpet in half, then the Millennium will start at the end of the week. Satan will be bound. They will still get the victory over Satan and the mark. The 42 months do not have to happen to have victory over them. When Satan is bound for a thousand years, they will still have victory over Satan.

The third woe does not have to happen. Only God actually knows, and it will not be revealed until the 7th Trumpet. John saw what could happen, not what has happened or will happen.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
9,639
629
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Tim, Jesus is not a kingdom. And Jesus is not the 7th king of Revelation 17:10.

The 7 heads in Revelation 17:10 are 7 kings, not kingdoms

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Jesus is the Messiah and Prince. Jesus is the Lord. The Day of the Lord is Jesus.

There are 7 kings/mountains throughout history, and Satan is one of those heads. That leaves 6 historical kings/kingdoms. None of the mountains were single individuals, not even Nebuchadnezzar who was called the head. His son reigned for a short part of that head.

You cannot call those heads individuals except for Satan.

Do you not also call Jesus the Word? John 1:1
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,460
263
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you not also call Jesus the Word? John 1:1
John 1:1-3 is saying that God has always existed and has no beginning nor end, before anything was created. And Jesus being God was with God, and came forth from God to create all there is.

"In the beginning was the Word" - is simply say that nothing existed but God.

Jesus stated Who He is in....

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jesus is God. He came forth from Himself, being in the Father. And entered the world as a man, that we might know God.
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,460
263
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There are 7 kings/mountains throughout history, and Satan is one of those heads. That leaves 6 historical kings/kingdoms. None of the mountains were single individuals, not even Nebuchadnezzar who was called the head. His son reigned for a short part of that head.

You cannot call those heads individuals except for Satan.
Tim, copy and past the verses, when you make a statement. Satan is not any of the 7 heads.

The seven mountains are where the woman, turned prostitute sits. It is a location, not kingdoms. The location is Rome. And the 7 kings in Revelation 17:10 are 7 sequential kings of the Roman Empire, all related. i.e. the Julio-Claudians.

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

The 7 kings of the Roman Empire are...

1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius

6. Nero

7. the end time little horn person, leader over ten EU kings. The EU being the manifestation of the Roman Empire in the end times.

The beast, king 8 of Revelation 17:11 will be the little horn person after he has been assassinated and brought back to life - as the beast-king, dictator of the EU.

In Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

... the ten EU leaders hand the EU over to the beast to be dictator of the EU.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
9,639
629
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 1:1-3 is saying that God has always existed and has no beginning nor end, before anything was created. And Jesus being God was with God, and came forth from God to create all there is.

"In the beginning was the Word" - is simply say that nothing existed but God.

Jesus stated Who He is in....

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jesus is God. He came forth from Himself, being in the Father. And entered the world as a man, that we might know God.
And Jesus will always be the physical one who died on the Cross, even when He ate in the tent of Abraham. The Word without a physical body, did not appear to Abraham. Only Jesus could do that as the Word when He returned to the Father, after leaving earth.

The Word would always be the post resurrection Jesus.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
9,639
629
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Tim, copy and past the verses, when you make a statement. Satan is not any of the 7 heads.

The seven mountains are where the woman, turned prostitute sits. It is a location, not kingdoms. The location is Rome. And the 7 kings in Revelation 17:10 are 7 sequential kings of the Roman Empire, all related. i.e. the Julio-Claudians.

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

The 7 kings of the Roman Empire are...

1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius

6. Nero

7. the end time little horn person, leader over ten EU kings. The EU being the manifestation of the Roman Empire in the end times.

The beast, king 8 of Revelation 17:11 will be the little horn person after he has been assassinated and brought back to life - as the beast-king, dictator of the EU.

In Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

... the ten EU leaders hand the EU over to the beast to be dictator of the EU.
That is a forced interpretation of an historical entity of the first century.

Revelation 17 and 18 are describing the period of the 3rd woe.

Why are you forcing the 7th Trumpet and 3rd woe into the first century?

Israel will never sit in authority from Rome, ever. Jesus will never set up a throne in Rome. Israel will always rule from Jerusalem. Jesus will always rule from Jerusalem.

This is not Israel of the first century. For starters, while Israel existed in the first century, it was a scattered Israel, even though this verse talks about Jesus:

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

We see this fulfilled here:

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

That was the purpose of the birth of Jesus, but that purpose only happens with the 7th Trumpet sounding.

That does not mean Israel had to be a single nation and Jesus was born in the days of David and Solomo, either. So why does Revelation 17 have to depict Rome at all, as if this is also talking about Rome in the first century?

John clearly states that Satan is of the 7 heads. Satan was one of the 7 heads as the dragon along with Babylon, the Medes and Persians, Greece, Rome, the ten nation confederation of the Dark Ages, and the 6th head from the Reformation until now. Those future 10 horns were on the head of Satan, for lack of a better placement. That is the historical relationship of Satan and the image in Daniel 2. Daniel 2 only covers the first 5 heads.

In Revelation 13 the only thing that changed was the 6th head was now restored as a world wide government.

Those ten horns were not the ten toes, and your horns in Daniel 11 may not even be the 5th kingdom, but yet you apply both horns and toes to first century Rome. Antiochus Epiphanes, as the type of little horn was Greek, not Roman. The ten toes show a divided kingdom. The ten horns show a united front for Satan's 8th kingdom.

Why do you not post the verses in Revelation 17 that back up your alleged interpretation?

The son of perdition always points to Satan.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-7 is talking about Satan:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

Satan was already at work with Greece and Rome as a spiritual authority over them in their pagan darkness. The dragon relationship is mentioned here by Paul. Paul is telling us that the Day of the Lord will not come, the Millennial Kingdom, until Satan has sat on that throne that Jesus will sit on as the son of David.

So when we see John echo that in Revelation 17, we should already understand both passages are talking about Satan. So why concoct an interpretation not even found in Scripture?

"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Satan is of the 7 heads on all 3 renditions of the beast with 7 heads, that are 7 mountains, which are symbolism for Kingdoms. So in Revelation 12, the woman is insulated from this beast. The woman is not mentioned in chapter 13, because that chapter introduces the mouth (false prophet) and the image, corresponding to the Abomination of Desolation. But that is set up where the woman holds authority, and that causes the woman to be viewed as the part that has played the harlot throughout history and is finally decimated by the 10 horns. So now the woman is on the scarlet colored beast of the same 7 heads, which is the dragon, and Satan is one of the 7 heads, but the 8th kingdom, after the 7th Trumpet declares Jesus is the 7th Kingdom. The 3rd woe is Satan come to earth as the 8th kingdom.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: "

These ten horns are on Satan's head and give Satan their power. Satan is the 7th head, but 8th kingdom. None of these horns have kingdoms, so do not represent any of the other 6 heads.

To be consistent throughout Revelation, there is only one beast representing the historical government of humankind. That history was given to Nebuchadnezzar in a dream.

"But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these"

God showed Nebuchadnezzar what the historical relationship would be and how those kings would even interact with the Cross, and the church in the latter days, the last 2 millennia before the Second Coming.

We are told 5 are fallen, so one has to understand when that last one ended, and why we are in the 6th head and 6th kingdom, though it is mortally wounded. Then figure out who the 7th is for a short period of only 3.5 days, and why not longer.

But to say this beast that was and is not just pertains to 5 human Roman rulers, is not allowing any explanation for the dragon. The woman should always represent Israel, and their city as Jerusalem. Jesus is their one and only true King. That is the purpose of the 7th Trumpet to announce that fact.
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,460
263
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is a forced interpretation of an historical entity of the first century.

Revelation 17 and 18 are describing the period of the 3rd woe.

Why are you forcing the 7th Trumpet and 3rd woe into the first century?
The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth, at the time the 7th angel sounds his trumpet, is when the king 7 has become king 8 - the beast king. In the future, not first century.
These ten horns are on Satan's head and give Satan their power. Satan is the 7th head, but 8th kingdom. None of these horns have kingdoms, so do not represent any of the other 6 heads.
Tim, you are forcing the word kingdoms into the text of Revelation 17:`10. There 7 kings in Revelation 17:10. The 8th king in Revelation 17:11 will be the beast-king.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
9,639
629
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth, at the time the 7th angel sounds his trumpet, is when the king 7 has become king 8 - the beast king. In the future, not first century.

Tim, you are forcing the word kingdoms into the text of Revelation 17:`10. There 7 kings in Revelation 17:10. The 8th king in Revelation 17:11 will be the beast-king.
The third woe is not Jesus becoming Satan.

The 7th Trumpet is declaring Jesus as the 7th Kingdom. Jesus is now the one world leader as King over all Nations. Mountains are kingdoms. Kings rule over those mountains/kingdoms. But this in not about individual kingdoms, but those who rule over an empire or multiple ethnicities. The scarlet colored beast still represents Babylon, Medes and Persions, Greece, Rome, the ten toes, and a 6th kingdom that is in a state of death, having no power at all. Five are fallen, those described in Daniel 2. One is, the 6th one healed by Satan at the Second Coming of Jesus as King. The 7th Trumpet does what? That Trumpet declares Jesus as King over the whole earth, just like Nebuchadnezzar over Babylon, or any ruler declaring himself over an empire. That would end the 6th kingdom/head, and declare the beginning of the 7th Kingdom, which is not a head on the scarlet colored beast, at all. Satan is the 7th head, but a future, 8th world wide kingdom.



No, I am saying the 7 heads are mountains and kings just as John wrote. Satan is the 8th but of the 7. The 7th King is not part of the scarlet colored beast, but Jesus as King over Israel, who is then declared the world wide leader at the 7th Trumpet. These mountains or kings are the 7 heads of the scarlet colored beast, the woman is sitting on. Revelation 17 is from the perspective of Satan ruling over Israel in the future. Not Rome ruling over Israel in the first century. This is about the 7th Trumpet and third woe, not the past. The woman still represents Israel as the city of Jerusalem. This analogy represents the religious malgamation that has taken over this woman, or Israel and Jerusalem.

The third woe, is God telling Jesus to hand over the earthly kingdom based in Jerusalem to Satan for 42 months. The 7th Kingdom is placed on hold until Armageddon, and Jesus reclaims the throne, by defeating Satan and seeing Satan bound in the pit for a thousand years. Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

The 8th kingdom may never happen at all. If it does, that is the third woe.