The Prophetic Timeline: Why Jesuit Futurists/Jesuit Preterists Ignore It

[Douggg]

Yes...he definitely was "a partaker of the Holy Ghost" but riches became more important than righteousness.

Did not King David pray "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me" when he broke the 6th and 7th?

No, Judas was never born again. Nor was King David.

In John 14:16-17, Jesus told the disciples that the Holy Spirit was dwelling in their midst - but was not in them, i.e. the disciples at that point in time, before the death and resurrection of Jesus, were not born again. Judas was never born again. And thus was never part of the church.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[Phoneman777]

Which one of us misrepresented the other's view multiple times? That would be you. If that's all you have to offer then there's no point in continuing this particular discussion.

Didn't you imply that the "antichrist" is not an organized system ("kingdom") but merely unorganized individuals?

 

[Phoneman777]

No, Judas was never born again. Nor was King David.

In John 14:16-17, Jesus told the disciples that the Holy Spirit was dwelling in their midst - but was not in them, i.e. the disciples at that point in time, before the death and resurrection of Jesus, were not born again. Judas was never born again. And thus was never part of the church.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I told you "church that was in the wilderness" but you didn't address that.

I told you "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me" but you didn't address that.

That only serves to confirm my position is correct, so if you insist on following Darby, so be it.

 

[Douggg]

I told you "church that was in the wilderness" but you didn't address that.

I told you "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me" but you didn't address that.

That only serves to confirm my position is correct, so if you insist on following Darby, so be it.

point 1 - The church in the wilderness in Acts 7:38-39 is talking about the children of Israel in Exodus metaphorically as a church that was led by Moses. And that someday, Moses said God would raise up among the children of Israel a prophet like himself (Moses) - i.e. referring to Jesus - to lead them.

point 2 - Psalms 51 was a song that was a prayer that David wrote under the influence of the Holy Spirit was who was present with him, verse 11, but not in him. And because David was burden by sins he had committed and desired forgiveness from God.

The song prayer was about the essence of salvation in Christ's shed blood (verse 7 referring to the hyssop branch that was used to sprinkle blood on the children of Israel) that would come the day that Jesus's was crucified. David was not borne again. Being borne again does not happen until a person believes upon the Lord Jesus Christ's death and resurrection for eternal life, which the Holy Spirit at that time comes and lives in the person's soul forever.

point 3 - Darby. I don't know why you are coming up with Darby. I have not said anything about Darby. Nor have I used him as a source for anything I wrote.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Didn't you imply that the "antichrist" is not an organized system ("kingdom") but merely unorganized individuals?

I don't believe in the concept of "THE antichrist" at all. Since you're using the term antichrist, I will address that first.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It was said that antichrist, or more specifically "that spirit of antichrist", would come and John clarified that many antichrists who had the spirit of antichrist that denied Christ were already in the world at that time.

John indicated that anyone who denies Jesus Christ is an antichrist.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So, if you are going to use the term "antichrist", you should use it in the same way John did.

Now, what I think you're really asking me is do I see what Paul called "the man of sin" as an organized system or as unorganized individuals? I would say the latter. I believe he was talking about sinful man in general during a future time during which there would be a mass falling away from the faith. They would turn away from God and basically see themselves as God instead. Jesus alluded to this time of a mass falling away from the faith and increased wickedness in Matthew 24:10-12. I'm an amillennialist and equate that time period with Satan's little season that I believe occurs just before the return of Christ. Paul indicated that the coming of the man of sin would correlate with "the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2 Thess 2:8-9) so I believe that lines up with the loosing of Satan.

 

[Douggg]

I don't believe in the concept of "THE antichrist" at all. Since you're using the term antichrist, I will address that first.

Then who is the beast who gets cast into the lake of fire at Jesus's Second Coming in Revelation 19:20 ?

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then who is the beast who gets cast into the lake of fire at Jesus's Second Coming in Revelation 19:20 ?

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

That's a loaded question. The first thing to understand about the beast is that it existed even before John wrote the book of Revelation.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

So, with that in mind, it just makes no sense whatsoever to think of the beast as some future individual human Antichrist since he would be very old by now.

So, what could it be that "was" before John wrote the book "and is not" at the time he wrote the book "and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit" in the future? If you look at Revelation 13, there is a direct relationship between how much power and authority the beast has in relation to what the dragon (obviously representing Satan) can give it. To me, that means if the beast is bound in the bottomless pit then so is the dragon.

And with my understanding that the binding of Satan has to do with him being weakened by the the gospel going out into the world through the power of the Holy Spirit, I see the beast as being the world and Satan's kingdom in the sense of how Jesus talked about "the world" in passages like this:

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

I believe the depiction of the beast is a symbolic way of illustrating how the world, led by whatever world empire is in place at any given time in history (which is what the beast's heads and horns represent), hates us. The beast hates us and makes war with us. The world and its ways are directly opposed to the ways of God. And that is how the beast is portrayed.

In case you wonder how a world empire or kingdom can be cast into the lake of fire, remember that even death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14), so not just living beings are cast there.

 

[Douggg]

I believe the depiction of the beast is a symbolic way of illustrating how the world, led by whatever world empire is in place at any given time in history (which is what the beast's heads and horns represent), hates us. The beast hates us and makes war with us. The world and its ways are directly opposed to the ways of God. And that is how the beast is portrayed.

Revelation 19:20 the beast is cast into the lake of fire at the same as the false prophet. So both of those are end times persons of evil at the time of Jesus's second coming.

That's a loaded question. The first thing to understand about the beast is that it existed even before John wrote the book of Revelation.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

So, with that in mind, it just makes no sense whatsoever to think of the beast as some future individual human Antichrist since he would be very old by now.

The label "the beast" is applied to the end times Antichrist person because he will become possessed by the disembodied garden of eden serpent beast that will be allowed to come out of the bottomless pit.

the serpent:
The serpent beast, used by Satan in the garden of Eden, died and his spirit sent to the bottomless pit. Someday, as a disembodied spirit will be allowed to come out of the bottomless pit and possess the revealed man of sin, at the time the slain man of sin is brought back to life. The possessed returned to life man of sin is thus called the beast in Revelation 13.

the Antichrist:
The common name for the end times person of evil. He begins as the little horn person > then becomes the prince who shall come > then becomes the Antichrist > then becomes the revealed man of sin > then becomes the beast-king.

You:
a child of God, anyone who has been saved by believing upon Jesus, His death on the cross for atonement of your sins, and His resurrection, for eternal life, looking forward to the redemption of your body.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 19:20 the beast is cast into the lake of fire at the same as the false prophet. So both of those are end times persons of evil at the time of Jesus's second coming.



The label "the beast" is applied to the end times Antichrist person because he will become possessed by the disembodied garden of eden serpent beast that will be allowed to come out of the bottomless pit.

the serpent:
The serpent beast, used by Satan in the garden of Eden, died and his spirit sent to the bottomless pit. Someday, as a disembodied spirit will be allowed to come out of the bottomless pit and possess the revealed man of sin, at the time the slain man of sin is brought back to life. The possessed returned to life man of sin is thus called the beast in Revelation 13.

the Antichrist:
The common name for the end times person of evil. He begins as the little horn person > then becomes the prince who shall come > then becomes the Antichrist > then becomes the revealed man of sin > then becomes the beast-king.

You:
a child of God, anyone who has been saved by believing upon Jesus, His death on the cross for atonement of your sins, and His resurrection, for eternal life, looking forward to the redemption of your body.

I'm not sure if our views on this could be any further apart if we tried. They are so far apart that it's virtually impossible for us to have a reasonable discussion about it. As usual, you just shared your view without even giving your thoughts on what I said. You obviously have no interest in an actual discussion about this, anyway.

 

[Douggg]

I'm not sure if our views on this could be any further apart if we tried. They are so far apart that it's virtually impossible for us to have a reasonable discussion about it. As usual, you just shared your view without even giving your thoughts on what I said. You obviously have no interest in an actual discussion about this, anyway.

Please go back to your post #187. You never dissected Revelation 19:20. You never acknowledged in that verse that at the same time the beast is cast into the lake of fire, that also the false prophet will be.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Please go back to your post #187. You never dissected Revelation 19:20.

Why would I do that when you didn't ask me to do that? You asked me who the beast is mentioned in that post and I answered your question. I even took a fair amount of time to answer it. But, here you are just saying I "never dissected Revelation 19:20" despite the fact that you didn't even ask me to do so.

You never acknowledged in that verse that at the same time the beast is cast into the lake of fire, that also the false prophet will be.

Why would I need to do that? That is very obviously the case. What is your point? The false prophet is also called the beast out of the earth in Revelation 13, so what I said regarding the beast not representing a man would apply to the second beast/false prophet as well. It wouldn't be consistent for me to show that the first beast is not a human and then somehow conclude that the second beast/false prophet is a human. They aren't human beings, but rather symbolic representations of world kingdoms or systems that Satan uses to do his bidding.

 

[Douggg]

They aren't human beings, but rather symbolic representations of world kingdoms or systems that Satan uses to do his bidding.

The 666 number of the beast is the number of a man, an individual, not a kingdom.

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The 666 number of the beast is the number of a man, an individual, not a kingdom.

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

So, you are just going to ignore that Revelation 17:8 says "the beast was" even before John wrote the book of Revelation? If it's a man, then he is at least around 2,000 years old by now. But, far be it from you to take all scripture into consideration like that.

The Greek word anthrōpos, translated there in Revelation 13:18 as "a man" can also mean "mankind" and I believe that is what the word means there. I disagree with the translators on that one. I don't believe it's meant to refer to "a man" there any more than I believe that the number of "nations" in Revelation 20:8 numbers as the sand of the sea. The translators were not the authors of scripture. I believe they got things right most of the time, but we need to use Hebrew and Greek resources to help us in situations like this where the meaning of a Greek word isn't entirely clear.

In case you think I'm making this all up, here is an example where that same Greek word is used in reference to mankind:

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man (anthrōpos) shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

[Douggg]

So, you are just going to ignore that Revelation 17:8 says "the beast was" even before John wrote the book of Revelation? If it's a man, then he is at least around 2,000 years old by now. But, far be it from you to take all scripture into consideration like that.

There is a lot of symbolism in Revelation 17.

Revelation 17:8 is the beginning of the angel's presentation of a mystery about the woman and the scarlet colored beast.

The angel starts out....

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Do you agree with me so far ?

---------------------------------------------------

Let's look at the angel's presentation that begins in verse 8 and ends in verse 18

There are two parts to verse 8

8a. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: (your point)

8b and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (my point)

The second part, 8b, is confirmed to be a man, a king, because the of the phrase "was, and is not, yet is" is found again in verse 11

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

So we can solve that part of the mystery by knowing the eighth king, the beast king - will be a man.

Which is Revelation 13:18, the number of that man's name is 666. That man will be the beast king.
,

 

[Douggg]

@ Spiritual Israelite

There is another part of the mystery we can solve.

We are looking at Revelation 17, which has a scarlet colored beast with 7 heads and 10 horns. Back in Revelation 12, John saw a great red dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns. And is told that the great red dragon is Satan, that old serpent in Revelation 12:9.

So the scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17 is Satan.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is a lot of symbolism in Revelation 17.

Obviously. But, somehow not much in Revelation 19?

Revelation 17:8 is the beginning of the angel's presentation of a mystery about the woman and the scarlet colored beast.

The angel starts out....

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Do you agree with me so far ?

Sure.

---------------------------------------------------

Let's look at the angel's presentation that begins in verse 8 and ends in verse 18

There are two parts to verse 8

8a. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: (your point)

8b and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (my point)

The second part, 8b, is confirmed to be a man, a king, because the of the phrase "was, and is not, yet is" is found again in verse 11

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

So we can solve that part of the mystery by knowing the eighth king, the beast king - will be a man.

Again, you are not acknowledging where it says "the beast was" even before John wrote the book of Revelation. So, if "the beast that was" is a man, he would be at least around 2,000 years old by now. I've pointed this out to you multiple times and you won't address it. Why not?

Also, while that text says "kings" there in relation to the seven heads, I think "kingdoms" is a better translation because other scripture indicates that prophetic beasts represent kingdoms. Of course, kingdoms have kings, but it's the kingdoms that are primarily in view.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Which is Revelation 13:18, the number of that man's name is 666. That man will be the beast king.

I disagree. The number represents mankind and fallen mankind in particular. The beast represents the world empire, kingdom or system that man follows after rather than following after God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@ Spiritual Israelite

There is another part of the mystery we can solve.

Let me be very clear. You are not the one to solve any mystery for me. I disagree with you on almost everything and that is not likely to ever change.

We are looking at Revelation 17, which has a scarlet colored beast with 7 heads and 10 horns. Back in Revelation 12, John saw a great red dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns. And is told that the great red dragon is Satan, that old serpent in Revelation 12:9.

So the scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17 is Satan.

This type of logic just boggles my mind. It's utter nonsense. No, throughout the book of Revelation the beast is the beast (whatever you believe it represents) and the dragon always represents Satan. The beast being given a color or the dragon being given a color doesn't make them one and the same. That is just ludicrous. They are referred to as red simply because of the bloodshed that they cause by way of the persecution of the church.

 

[Douggg]

Again, you are not acknowledging where it says "the beast was" even before John wrote the book of Revelation. So, if "the beast that was" is a man, he would be at least around 2,000 years old by now. I've pointed this out to you multiple times and you won't address it. Why not?

Again, verse 8 is in two parts. Part 1, I have not addressed yet.

8a. The beast that was (alive) and is not (alive) and will come out of the bottomless pit. Obviously, at least 2000 years old, and is presently in the bottomless pit, to some day ascend out of.

So it is referring to a disembodied spirit. The body of which, died a long time ago, before John's time. I will get to that in my next post, who that was, and is not, and is in the bottomless pit to someday ascend out of.

8b. The beast that was (alive), is not (alive), yet is (alive). The forth coming king eight, having been one of the 7 kings - i.e. men.

Part of the mystery is - which of the 7 kings will become the beast-king ?

It can be solved by reviewing the crowns on the 7 heads, in Chapter 17, Chapter 12, Chapter 13.

Chapter 17 - no crowns, the prophecy of the 7 kings, incomplete. First century.
Chapter 12 - crowns, the prophecy of the 7 kings complete. 7 years to go in that chapter, before Jesus returns.
Chapter 13 - no crowns, the prophecy of the 7 kings, over. King 7 has been killed. Has become the beast-king, with 42 months to go before Jesus returns.

So the forthcoming king 7 will become king 8, the beast-king. King of what ?

King of the end-times manifestation of the Roman Empire. King 7 is the little horn person of Daniel 7 and Daniel 8, who will have become leader over 10 EU leaders, i.e. the ten horns, which are said to be ten kings in Revelation 17:12, that will rule with the beast-king.

 

[Douggg]

@ Spiritual Israelite

Now I will address 8a.

8a. The beast that was (alive) and is not (alive) and will come out of the bottomless pit. Obviously, at least 2000 years old, and is presently in the bottomless pit, to some day ascend out of.

So it is referring to a disembodied spirit. The body of which, died a long time ago, before John's time.

Keep in mind that the mystery presentation by the angel is about the woman and the scarlet beast with 7 heads and 10 horns. That beast being Satan. So half of the mystery is about the involvement of Satan.

Satan will empower the beast-king, king 8, a man, in Revelation 13:2.

So what is Satan's tie to the beast in 8a who is in the bottomless pit as a disembodied spirit? In Revelation 12: 9, Satan is called that old serpent. That gives us a hint.

The first time we encounter a serpent in the bible is in the garden of eden. Satan used that serpent, speaking through him, to deceived Eve and Adam to sin. The serpent was a beast !

The serpent was cursed and eventually died. That is who is in the bottomless pit, now a disembodied spirit. The beast that was, and is not, now a disembodied spirit will someday come out of the bottomless pit - to possess king 8, called the beast-king. Called the beast-king because of the spirit of the serpent beast will possess him.

So regarding the beast in Revelation 17:8, there is human involvement (the beast-king) and there is non-human involvement the serpent beast. Ending up combined into one evil package.

the Antichrist:
The common name for the end times person of evil. He begins as the little horn person > then becomes the prince who shall come > then becomes the Antichrist > then becomes the revealed man of sin > then becomes the beast-king.

 

[Phoneman777]

point 1 - The church in the wilderness in Acts 7:38-39 is talking about the children of Israel in Exodus metaphorically as a church that was led by Moses. And that someday, Moses said God would raise up among the children of Israel a prophet like himself (Moses) - i.e. referring to Jesus - to lead them.

"Church" simply means "gathering of called ones" which accurately describes both Israel and Christians.

And, to get back to the point, "antichrist" goes out from those who are gathered together in the name of Christ - he doesn't arise outside the church and then enter it as your "Jewish antichrist" idea suggests. Judas started within but committed apostasy, as did the papist antichrist which took over the church of the Dark Ages.

point 2 - Psalms 51 was a song that was a prayer that David wrote under the influence of the Holy Spirit was who was present with him, verse 11, but not in him. And because David was burden by sins he had committed and desired forgiveness from God.

The idea that the Holy Ghost was not "in" people of the OT - only present "with them" is churchianity bulldookey.

Countless examples like Exodus 35:31 KJV of people being "filled with God's Spirit" - the difference is that in the OT, the Holy Spirit was not poured out in the fullness that it was in the NT which empowered the church to go forth with the Great Commission.

If you were correct, David would have prayed, "send not away Thy holy spirit from my side".

The song prayer was about the essence of salvation in Christ's shed blood (verse 7 referring to the hyssop branch that was used to sprinkle blood on the children of Israel) that would come the day that Jesus's was crucified. David was not borne again. Being borne again does not happen until a person believes upon the Lord Jesus Christ's death and resurrection for eternal life, which the Holy Spirit at that time comes and lives in the person's soul forever.

The fact is that everyone in the OT is saved exactly the same way as we in the NT - by faith. "The just shall live by faith" is an OT as well as NT principle.

OT believers slew lambs while looking forward to the coming of the Lamb of God while NT believers look back to the Cross where the Lamb of God was slain.

point 3 - Darby. I don't know why you are coming up with Darby. I have not said anything about Darby. Nor have I used him as a source for anything I wrote.

John Nelson Darby, Plymouth Brethren member and the "father of Dispensationalism" which chops up the Bible so that we can make it say anything we want.