The Pre-Trib Rapture

[The Light]

The sixth seal . . . the moon is blood. Jesus returns, the moon is dark.

So, yes, the moon is blood at the sixth seal and the moon is dark when Jesus returns.

Don't miss the forest for the trees. Ever seen a lunar eclipse? The moon goes dark. But before it goes dark it is a blood moon as the rays of the sun are bending around the earth until finally the moon goes dark. The coming of Jesus to the clouds in Matthew 24 is the same coming as the 6th seal.

Another distinction is that at the sixth seal, the mountains and islands are moved from their location, but in the great earthquake before Jesus comes, the mountains and islands are gone.

Can't the mountains move from their location enough until they are gone?

Everything lines up perfectly. What Jesus tells you in Matthew 24 lines up with what John tells you at the 6th seal.

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus comes in the clouds and sends His angels for the gathering from heaven and earth.
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Then the wrath of God begins.
Rev 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

And this agrees exactly with what Paul tells us in Thessalonians.

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Nothing made up. Nothing dreamed up. Just reading what it says. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus returns to the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect just before the wrath of God. A rapture happens at the 6th seal. The days are cut short so there will be flesh alive that will be raptured...salvation. None would be saved if the days were not cut short.

 

[marks]

Which supports me not you. No killing is mentioned, only the Earth and Heavens being burned to create the New Heaven and new Earth of Revelation 21 which is after all mortals are no longer existing which means no deaths are even possible.

That's right. There are no remaining mortal inhabitants of the earth at that time.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

No, separating is to 2 groups only, which is what that sheep/goats prophecy is about. Your 3 group idea is from men's traditions, not written in God's Word.

Exactly correct, the sheep are saved, the goats are unsaved (Two Groups) its that simple

There are Two destinations (The Eternal Kingdom) for the sheep, and the (Lake Of Fire) for the goats

Matthew 25:31-46 below is nothing more than a "Parable" of the Great White Throne Judgement seen in Revelation 20:11-15 spoken to herdsmen

You will closely note verse 46 below, the "Final Judgement" has taken place in "Everlasting Punishment" and "Eternal Life" (The End)

Matthew 25:31-46KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[farouk]

@marks This thread of yours has been really busy....

 

[ewq1938]

So, yes, the moon is blood at the sixth seal and the moon is dark when Jesus returns.

How can Jesus leave heaven at the 6th seal and remain in heaven to open the 7th seal?

 

[Truth7t7]

Pretty hard to have a meaningful conversation, your system of belief isn't even from the bible.





Which supports me not you. No killing is mentioned, only the Earth and Heavens being burned to create the New Heaven and new Earth of Revelation 21 which is after all mortals are no longer existing which means no deaths are even possible.

"Destroyed Them All" just as the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah were "Destroyed/Killed"

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[marks]

So, yes, the moon is blood at the sixth seal and the moon is dark when Jesus returns.

Don't miss the forest for the trees. Ever seen a lunar eclipse? The moon goes dark. But before it goes dark it is a blood moon as the rays of the sun are bending around the earth until finally the moon goes dark. The coming of Jesus to the clouds in Matthew 24 is the same coming as the 6th seal.

Don't miss the trees for the forest! If you recall, there was a certain lack of distinguishing between the details of the prophecies when Jesus came the first time. Even John the Baptist had questions. There was much debate in those days over whether Messiah was suffering servant or conquering king.

The prophecies show two comings, but the people expected one. We should be careful we are not making the same mistake.

I look carefully at all these distinctions. Normally what I find is that they actually show how the passages all harmonize without having to see the prophecies as allegorical or otherwise not literal prophetic narrative.

Much love!

 

[marks]

How can Jesus leave heaven at the 6th seal and remain in heaven to open the 7th seal?

That's an interesting question!

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Don't miss the trees for the forest! If you recall, there was a certain lack of distinguishing between the details of the prophecies when Jesus came the first time. Even John the Baptist had questions. There was much debate in those days over whether Messiah was suffering servant or conquering king.

The prophecies show two comings, but the people expected one. We should be careful we are not making the same mistake.

I look carefully at all these distinctions. Normally what I find is that they actually show how the passages all harmonize without having to see the prophecies as allegorical or otherwise not literal prophetic narrative.

Much love!

@marks Good general advice indeed! not simply seeing the distinction between the church and Israel can for example lead to a lot of problems when ppl start trying to discuss minutiae.

 

[marks]

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Have you followed my responses on this point?

Much love!

 

[marks]

@marks This thread of yours has been really busy....

Something I really like about these discussions is how it impacts how we read the Bible.

One of my goals is to highlight that we can accept the wording as-is, and it will still all make sense. And even better sense.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Something I really like about these discussions is how it impacts how we read the Bible.

One of my goals is to highlight that we can accept the wording as-is, and it will still all make sense. And even better sense.

Much love!

Wise words, yes.......

 

[marks]

Something else that people seem to have a hard time with, some of them, the Sheep/Goats judgment determines who is the righteous, and who is the wicked, according to that they've done and not done.

It's a judgment that determines whether you will be accepted or not based entirely on works.

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 25:34-46 KJV
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Because I was hungry, and you fed me, come inherit the kingdom!

Because I was hungry, and you didn't feed me, depart!

Both sheep and goats question Jesus about when all this happened, that they are being judged accordingly. When did we do/not do these . . . works . . . by which we are judged righteous/wicked?

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Why the difference?

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

That's an interesting question!

Much love!

It exposes the flawed common interpretation.

 

[marks]

Matthew 25:31-46 below is nothing more than a "Parable" of the Great White Throne Judgement

A parable? Based on what? Because you can't understand it any other way, particularly as a prophetic narrative? Or because Jesus said it was a parable? Did He? I ask this to challenge you to look at the passage for exactly what it says, and not for what it does not.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

A parable? Based on what? Because you can't understand it any other way, particularly as a prophetic narrative? Or because Jesus said it was a parable? Did He? Or is that just you?

Much love!

It's a fact....

 

[marks]

Why the difference?

Because the church, of whom Ephesians 2 was written, is gone in the pre-trib rapture.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, with that I agree. The coming Antichrist, pseudo-Christ, "man of sin", "another beast", will be Satan himself. But how does he manifest? That's probably where you and I differ. My understanding from Scripture is that Satan is coming to earth manifesting as himself, with the image of man which he also has in the heavenly. He is coming here in our earthly dimension, de facto in person, and the world will wonder at him, and all the great signs and miracles he will work to deceive.

I can pretty much guarantee, Satan doesn't really have horns and a pitchfork, nor does he wear red flannel underwear.

In the parable of Ezekiel 28, God said He made him the 'full pattern', meaning the full pattern of beauty. He is a beautiful cherub, and with the image of man, since that is the outward likeness from God Himself that He made all angels and us with.

The Revelation 12:7-17 Scripture reveals when the war in Heaven happens, there will be no more place found in Heaven for the dragon and his angels. There's only two places of existence in God's Word, the Heavenly one, and this earthly one. So if he is booted out of Heaven with his angels, where do you think he will appear, literally?

Well Satan goes to, and gets booted out of heaven constantly. That is an ongoing phenomenon. The point is that Satan is not going to purposely introduce himself before the Second Coming.

For one reason, the world as a whole is convinced Satan and God are not even real, but made up stories. If Satan held a press conference, then people could start to reason that God indeed does exist.

Secondly, no one knows when the Second Coming will happen. Satan is not warned ahead of time to prepare. Thus messing up the first point.

 

[Truth7t7]

@marks Good general advice indeed! not simply seeing the distinction between the church and Israel can for example lead to a lot of problems when ppl start trying to discuss minutiae.

Fact is, there is saved "Church" and unsaved "World" there is no "Two Peoples" as you suggest

 

[farouk]

Fact is, there is saved "Church" and unsaved "World" there is no "Two Peoples" as you suggest

Not a fact in Scripture, as you describe it. Pentecost and the Acts of the Apostles intervened.