The Pre-Trib Rapture

[marks]

Well Satan goes to, and gets booted out of heaven constantly. That is an ongoing phenomenon. The point is that Satan is not going to purposely introduce himself before the Second Coming.

For one reason, the world as a whole is convinced Satan and God are not even real, but made up stories. If Satan held a press conference, then people could start to reason that God indeed does exist.

Secondly, no one knows when the Second Coming will happen. Satan is not warned ahead of time to prepare. Thus messing up the first point.

Revelation 16:8-21 KJV
8) And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
...
21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Revelation 19:19-21 KJV
19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21) And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is Jesus, on His white horse, come to make war. And the armies of the earth are gathered to make war against Him.

They seem to know what's going on.

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

A parable? Based on what? Because you can't understand it any other way, particularly as a prophetic narrative?

Parables often use symbols/symbolism, like goats and sheep. Also, in the Olivet Discourse he uses 7 parables to compare what the second coming will be like. The sheep/goats parable is just one of those.

 

[Taken]

@Taken So have your many years of study been at least partly among groups of a dispensational outlook?

Years long studies, regularly, Yes.
Groups? Not particularly. Spouse usually, kids sometimes, friends when convenient.
Not crazy about tags “dispensational”... since people redefine what they think words should mean!
Basic classic, yes. Think literal, yes. Reasoning, application Historical to present, yes. Rightly dividing applicability, yes.
Bible for verification, yes. Plan for Israel and Church, yes.
Interpret understanding, No.

 

[farouk]

Years long studies, regularly, Yes.
Groups? Not particularly. Spouse usually, kids sometimes, friends when convenient.
Not crazy about tags “dispensational”... since people redefine what they think words should mean!
Basic classic, yes. Think literal, yes. Reasoning, application Historical to present, yes. Rightly dividing applicability, yes.
Bible for verification, yes. Plan for Israel and Church, yes.
Interpret understanding, No.

@Taken Thanks; seems like the distinction in Scripture between Israel and the church is foundational, anyway................

 

[marks]

Parables often use symbols/symbolism, like goats and sheep. Also, in the Olivet Discourse he uses 7 parables to compare what the second coming will be like. The sheep/goats parable is just one of those.

Matthew 24:32 KJV
32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Matthew 25:1 KJV
1) Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:14 KJV
14) For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

These are parable. We know because the text shows they are parables. Learn a parable . . . The kingdom of heaven be likened to . . . Kingdom of heaven is as . . .

Not a parable, stated as what will happen:

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Then shall appear . . . they shall see . . . He shall send . . . when the Son of Man shall come . . . then shall He sit . . . before Him shall be gathered . . .

All spoken as events that will occur, not a parable.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

Yep. I've still got the charts I made. And I amaze myself that I used to have that kind of time!

You really nailed it . . . "trying to put a few blips on a forum". I'm constantly trying to think how to succinctly explain things when you need to understand the correlation between so many different passages.

Much love!

Agree!

 

[farouk]

Agree!

@Taken Well, details in Scripture can be complex, when it comes to prophecy, but there can sometimes be some simple interpretational principles to follow......... :)

 

[Taken]

@Taken Thanks; seems like the distinction in Scripture between Israel and the church is foundational, anyway................

Yes.
During this lifetime;
Jer 32:
[38] And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

In the end, with;
2 Cor 6:
[16c] ...I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Taken]

Jesus was resurrected on a Sunday morning and ascended to heaven. What is wrong with "terreforming the earth" on a Sunday?

I didn’t say it was wrong. I wondered how you knew the Day.

 

[Taken]

By all means, please give the forum your grammatical, historical hermeneutics, waiting?

Scripture clearly teaches "The Church" is the "Elect" of God

Marks you have been shown truth several times, as you continue to push the Darby/Scofield (Two Peoples) Of God, Israel/Church "Why"?

You wonder WHY then post a Scripture, you highlight in red, I highlight your answer in BLUE.

1 Thessalonians 1:1-4KJV
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

1 Peter 5:13KJV
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.[/QUOTE]

Gods ELECT is Gods Chosen, (all knowing whom will elect Him).
Israel before revelation of the Church (in Gods hand)
The Church members after the revelation of the Church (in Jesus’ hand)

 

[The Light]

How can Jesus leave heaven at the 6th seal and remain in heaven to open the 7th seal?

Jesus comes to the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect. It should be obvious that He returns to heaven and the great multitude is the proof.
Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Something else that people seem to have a hard time with, some of them, the Sheep/Goats judgment determines who is the righteous, and who is the wicked, according to that they've done and not done.

It's a judgment that determines whether you will be accepted or not based entirely on works.

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 25:34-46 KJV
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Because I was hungry, and you fed me, come inherit the kingdom!

Because I was hungry, and you didn't feed me, depart!

Both sheep and goats question Jesus about when all this happened, that they are being judged accordingly. When did we do/not do these . . . works . . . by which we are judged righteous/wicked?

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Why the difference?

Much love!

The difference is some have heard the Gospel and some have not.

 

[The Light]

Have you followed my responses on this point?

Much love!

yes. did I miss something?

 

[marks]

The difference is some have heard the Gospel and some have not.

35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Jesus said otherwise, though. The reason is what they did, not something else.

That the nations are gathered and then separated by this criteria means there is not another criteria applied, just this.

Much love!

 

[marks]

yes. did I miss something?

I've been showing that the Day of Christ and the rapture are not the same thing.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

@Taken Well, details in Scripture can be complex, when it comes to prophecy, but there can sometimes be some simple interpretational principles to follow......... :)

Just saying reasoning, this /he says this, that /he says that, concluding reasonable.

Interpreting for “understanding”, as to “what does this mean”...
(Can yield to men, philosophers, rulers, self....or ask God —->
My preference.)

 

[The Light]

Fact is, there is saved "Church" and unsaved "World" there is no "Two Peoples" as you suggest

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus comes to the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect. It should be obvious that He returns to heaven and the great multitude is the proof.

That isn't proof because that passage is in the eternity not just after the second coming. He also does not rapture a great multitude. The raptured group is small, those who survived the Great Tribulation. Even in Pre-trib the group cannot be as large as described.

 

[The Light]

I've been showing that the Day of Christ and the rapture are not the same thing.

Much love!

Of course, they are not the same thing. The second rapture or gathering from heaven and earth happens before the Day of Christ. The great multitude is in heaven at the marriage supper when the wrath of God takes place.

 

[Truth7t7]

Because the church, of whom Ephesians 2 was written, is gone in the pre-trib rapture.

Much love!

Talking to yourself again, were watching

 

[The Light]

That isn't proof because that passage is in the eternity not just after the second coming. He also does not rapture a great multitude. The raptured group is small, those who survived the Great Tribulation. Even in Pre-trib the group cannot be as large as described.

The great multitude is result of the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is already in heaven (pre trib rapture) and return with Jesus to the clouds for the second rapture. The 144,000 are the first fruits of the rapture that occurs at the 6th seal. They all return to heaven for the marriage supper.