The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Davy]

I think the real question is, who are these children of the kingdom who will be cast out? Those of Jesus' day who rejected Him? OR those at the end of the age of whom is prophesied that they will all be regathered, all be saved?

Much love!

Nah, you're trying to squeeze men's traditions into that Scripture. We have to take the Scriptures as written, not try to make them fit what we 'want' to believe.

The Matthew 8:11-12 verses reveal plainly, those of the seed of Israel that reject Jesus, will be cast to the "outer darkness" at His return, and the timing it is pointing to about His future Kingdom with sitting down for the marriage supper with Jesus.

So don't you understand who those, "children of the kingdom" represent? It's about the seed of Israel. And Lord Jesus said that just after He had marveled at the Gentile centurion's faith.

 

[marks]

That's what I try to do.

If you look at Luke 23:27-30 with those women of the daughters of Jerusalem crying when Jesus was on His way to be crucified, and He turned to them and told them not to weep for Him, but for theirselves and for their children, because the day would come when they would desire for the mountains and hills to fall upon them (because of shame, why? because of their having rejected Him during this world).

Luke 23:27-31 KJV
27) And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28) But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29) For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30) Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
31) For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

You are thinking that this above means that the below is not as stated?

Romans 11:26-27 KJV
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Please concentrate.

Ummmm . . . OK.

;)

 

[marks]

Nah, you're trying to squeeze men's traditions into that Scripture.

You keep saying this stuff. I'm not interested in that sort of discussion, I'm sorry.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Which is parallel to,

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Much love!

The sheep and goats are Israel being called out of all nations. That is the point of the first 6 Trumpets. This is the final harvest when Jesus is on earth as Prince ruling from Jerusalem.

His disciples and dignitaries are the 144k. They are involved in rounding up all of Israel out of all the nations. Not that God needs them any more or less than the first original 12 disciples. This time as Prince, the ministry is the entire earth and all nations.

Some of Israel are still goats. This is not all humans standing in Judgment. This is all of Israel out of the Nations.

The church was already raptured, taken out of the world. The church was not gathered out of the nations and sent to Jerusalem. Jesus gathers the lost sheep while on earth. The church has been gathering the lost sheep while on earth for the last 1992 years. The sheep were never raptured nor remotely removed. The church was raptured and remotely removed.

Jesus sitting on a throne in Jerusalem is hands on and personal. Jesus is literally on the earth from the 6th Seal until Satan is allowed 42 months. If Satan is not given 42 months, Jesus is still on earth for the next 1,000 years. Those sheep gathered after the Second Coming are the firstfruits, the first generation, of the Millennial Kingdom.

The church is in Paradise, and no longer part of procreation. That has been a fact since 30AD, and the removal of the OT church from Abraham's bosom. They were the firstfruits of the Paradise Kingdom. The kingdom without observation, the church in Paradise. The church will only return after the Millennium as the New Jerusalem in the NHNE. The church has been the harvest of the last 1992 years. We, the ambassadors of Paradise, have suffered great tribulation over the last 1992 years. The Second Coming ends that tribulation of those days.

 

[Timtofly]

I didn't miss your point. I believe you're trying to evade my point, which is from Scripture.

The idea of one thinking to 'save their soul by flying away' is my point, and fits the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine fully. And that flying away to save one's soul is what God is showing He is against in that Ezekiel 13 Chapter.

Sorry, but no human can just "fly away". You are arguing a strawman.

The church is removed by God, at the Second Coming. Many call that flying away, because all those left behind will be watching in horror. It will be the reverse of meteors hitting the ground. The flashes of new light in the sky will be humans leaving the earth. At the same time all the stars will be arriving as the angels in human form. I am sure Satan will put some spin on the truth.

 

[marks]

Nah, you're trying to squeeze men's traditions into that Scripture. We have to take the Scriptures as written, not try to make them fit what we 'want' to believe.

The Matthew 8:11-12 verses reveal plainly, those of the seed of Israel that reject Jesus, will be cast to the "outer darkness" at His return, and the timing it is pointing to about His future Kingdom with sitting down for the marriage supper with Jesus.

So don't you understand who those, "children of the kingdom" represent? It's about the seed of Israel. And Lord Jesus said that just after He had marveled at the Gentile centurion's faith.

Yeah, I'm just not interested anymore, but up to this it's been interesting, and thank you!

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Sorry, but no human can just "fly away". You are arguing a strawman.

The church is removed by God, at the Second Coming. Many call that flying away, because all those left behind will be watching in horror. It will be the reverse of meteors hitting the ground. The flashes of new light in the sky will be humans leaving the earth. At the same time all the stars will be arriving as the angels in human form. I am sure Satan will put some spin on the truth.

1 Corinthians 11.26 seems to make it clear that the Rapture is particularly linked with the church.

 

[marks]

Jesus is literally on the earth from the 6th Seal until Satan is allowed 42 months.

Are you saying Jesus is ruling on earth while Satan is given authority for 42 months?

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

The Prince that shall come is the First Coming.

Scripture has proof that the First Coming already happened.

Scripture points out Messiah was cut off. Other Scripture points out that this allowed the fulness of the Gentiles.

Sorry, but Gentiles "Lording it over" the Jews does not count as your "Prince to come".

 

[Truth7t7]

Rev 20:9 is not the second coming...but close.

Rev 20:9 Is what is happening when Satan is released after 1,000 years bondage in hell.
It is Satan influencing the Nations that were being established...encompassing the saints (Christ’s Kingdom)...the lands promised to Abraham...encompassing (Christ’s Throne in the Beloved city of Jerusalem)...
The Fire coming that Devours them.
The defeat of angelic angels over demonic angels.

Rev 20:
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Then Rev 20:
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Satan cast into hell’s lake of fire.

Rev 20; the Separations, the Return, the Books opened, the degree of final Judgement, the Sentencing....
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:9-10 represents the second coming, last day judgment (The End)

 

[ewq1938]

All scripture below shows the second coming

Revelation 19 is the second coming, it just doesn't mention the fire

Matthew 24:29-31 is the second coming, it just doesn't mention the fire

Because no fire is used to kill.

2 Peter 3:10 is the second coming, it mentions the fire

That is not the second coming. Fire is also not used to kill.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 is the second coming, it mentions the fire

The fire is actually lightning and it is used as a descriptor of how fast the return is. Fire/lightning is not used as a weapon.

Revelation 20:9 is the second coming, it mentions the fire

That isn't the second coming. Christ isn't even mentioned. The second coming was in Revelation 19, over a thousand years before that verse.

 

[Truth7t7]

And who is the "elect" gathered in Matthew 24?

Much love!

Scripture clearly teaches "The Church" is the "Elect" of God

Marks you have been shown truth several times, as you continue to push the Darby/Scofield (Two Peoples) Of God, Israel/Church "Why"?

1 Thessalonians 1:1-4KJV
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

1 Peter 5:13KJV
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

 

[Timtofly]

It's the false tradition of Hyper-Dispensationalism (or Hyper-Grace some call it), that tries to separate Israel and Gentiles into two separate bodies. No, not written. And John Darby who started preaching the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in 1830's Britain is who started that Dispensationalist separation idea. There is NO SUCH THING as a Gentile only Church, nor an Israelite only Church, nor separate gatherings of each.

No, it is the failure of many to see the church removed at the Second Coming.

You have the church called to assembly on earth, for months after the Second Coming.

The church was removed to Paradise while Jesus was on His way to the Mount of Olives. The church is not the sheep called to Jerusalem after Jesus is already sitting on the throne in Jerusalem. Matthew 25:31 is not a parable. It is Jesus explaining the parables found in Matthew 25 prior to verse 31.

 

[marks]

Scripture clearly teaches "The Church" is the "Elect" of God

Use the grammatical historical hermaneutic, and see what you find.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

Because no fire is used to kill.




That is not the second coming. Fire is also not used to kill.



The fire is actually lightning and it is used as a descriptor of how fast the return is. Fire/lightning is not used as a weapon.




That isn't the second coming. Christ isn't even mentioned. The second coming was in Revelation 19, over a thousand years before that verse.

Pretty hard to have a meaningful conversation, your system of belief isn't even close to biblical orthodoxy

Just on your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-13, to claim no fire is killing is laughable, the heavens and earth are dissolved by fire in "The Day Of The Lord"

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

Use the grammatical historical hermaneutic, and see what you find.

Much love!

By all means, please give the forum your grammatical, historical hermeneutics, waiting?

Scripture clearly teaches "The Church" is the "Elect" of God

Marks you have been shown truth several times, as you continue to push the Darby/Scofield (Two Peoples) Of God, Israel/Church "Why"?

1 Thessalonians 1:1-4KJV
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

1 Peter 5:13KJV
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

 

[ewq1938]

Pretty hard to have a meaningful conversation, your system of belief isn't even close to biblical orthodoxy

Pretty hard to have a meaningful conversation, your system of belief isn't even from the bible.

Just on your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-13, to claim no fire is killing is laughable, the heavens and earth are dissolved by fire in "The Day Of The Lord"

Which supports me not you. No killing is mentioned, only the Earth and Heavens being burned to create the New Heaven and new Earth of Revelation 21 which is after all mortals are no longer existing which means no deaths are even possible.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes.

After each Seal is opened. After each Trump is blown...Scripture tells what happens at each signal /seal/Trumps.

Uh...You have kept a Hebrew lunar calendar since the Beginning to know exactly what day what will happen?

Jesus was resurrected on a Sunday morning and ascended to heaven. What is wrong with "terreforming the earth" on a Sunday?

 

[marks]

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-33 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

These are two gatherings, of two different groups, at two different times, with two different outcomes. Both are prophesied in the OT.

Ezekiel 36:24-28 KJV
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Zechariah 13:8-9 KJV
8) And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9) And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Isaiah 11:10-12 KJV
10) And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12) And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Much love!