The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Timtofly]

Good point. I think it's safe to say the words of Jesus were definitely fulfilled in 70 A.D.

According to which historian? Certainly not according to Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

You don't think the world is going to see the cosmos light up as Jesus approaches our corner of the universe? I do, because it's going to be magnificently glorious.

You mean Satan's virtual universe?

What is going to happen is all spiritual blindness will be removed and the GWT and God Himself will be seen. Everything is already there in place. All God has to do is remove spiritual blindness.

You don't know what I believe, so how can you make such a statement?

Because you are hiding behind excuses instead of just stating the truth of Scripture.

 

[Brakelite]

The word "apostasia" means "departure". It was commonly used of ideological departure, but the word means departure. So when you are determining which should be the correct understanding, I find it helpful to examine the implications of either POV.

If "departure", that is, a "leaving", then we have one set of circumstances.

The people were asking, what about this? The day of Christ? What about our being gathered to Jesus? Not to worry, that day won't come but the departure come first, and the man of sin be revealed.

But if it's apostacy, you end up with a different set of circumstances. Such as, the meaning and visibility of the sign. You answer this as, "it will be spiritually discerned", that is, you will just know. Of course, that could have been the original answer, "You'll just know when it's the time . . ."

If I'm hung up on anything, it's knowing what it true. And I find it useful to examine many things from many perspectives, and I find many implications of various views that really don't pan out well, or are in outright conflict with other passages.



An example of a meaningful sign. I don't think you are following my arguments.



I find it to be the one way of understanding the rapture of the church that doesn't make a mess of the Scritpures. I've looked at the major views - my style of looking, not the surface look that seems to satisfy so many - and they create conflicts and you have to say, This doesn't mean what it says, and That doesn't mean what it says, see, this is spiritually discerned, and it means something else, trust me I know . . .

As one who takes every statement of Scripture seriously, I don't ignore the inconsistencies.

Much love!

Historicism Mark doesn't distort scripture or require the ignoring of certain passages to fit. One cannot help but notice that prophecy have us many signs, but not one specific date or time for the second coming. When the Thessalonians began to think that the Lord had already come, (preterism), Paul wrote and said, whoa, not so fast guys, there's a certain order of events, then the end will come. But even Paul then thought that the second coming would be in his lifetime, and this is what God always intended for him, and everyone else including us, to think, for it maintains an attitude of readiness. If we all knew the date, we wouldn't get ready until the last minute. If the apostles thought the day of the Lord wasn't for another 2000 years, they may not have even got out of bed, let alone turn the world upside down with the gospel. So what Paul was telling the church, this and that is about to happen first, but he wasn't saying all prophecy was to be fulfilled in one lump at the end of time. That kind of thinking, the futurist hermeneutic, didn't come into Christian thought until the counter reformation of the 16th century. The early church fathers had a fairly clear idea of what to expect, including the demise of Rome and the emergence of 10 powers to fill the void, which was exactly what took place and many of them witnessed. The prophecies of Daniel, John the Revelator, and Paul and others, began to be fulfilled as they spoke.
As you mentioned, there were antichrists in their day, but the Antichrist, the man of sin, and little horn of Daniel 7, etc etc, would be revealed by what? The falling away... The apostasy. This was to come first. Also, as Daniels prophecies indicate, the little horn was limited to several specific criteria. Approximately 10 main characteristics, even one of which if not met, disqualifies the wannabes. The first major obstacle to any future individual is the fact that the little horn was to grow contemporaneously with 10 other powers, all of which grew from the head of pagan Rome. Those 10 came up first, the little one rising after, and in order to take power, removed 3 of the 10. Pagan Rome no longer exists. The original physical local predatory beast that rose from the sea and grew horns, is dead. Only 8 of those horns survived.
And there was the greatest falling away, the greatest apostasy of Christian history that took place beginning not long after the first apostles died. It culminated with the Papacy coming to maturity in the 6th century, revealing the Antichrist.
It was the Papacy that grew out of pagan Rome.
It was the Papacy that grew after the establishment of the 10 powers that filled the void when pagan Rome abandoned western Europe.
It was the Papacy that through an amalgamation of church and state, destroyed 3 of those powers because of their Arian views. Although there is debate on that... Arian according to the Papacy may not necessarily be Arian according to the Goths for example, whose mentor and evangelist Wulfilas, was from his own writings, clearly a believer in the divinity and deity of Christ. He even translated the scriptures into the Goth language. But the Goths were dangerous to Roman supremacy. The early popes of the 6th century couldn't do anything without gothic permission. Despite Justinian's declaration and intentions to the contrary. He declared the Roman bishops as being superior over all others (hence the dragon, pagan Rome, giving power and authority and his seat to the beast in Revelation 13) , so the Goths had to go. And the Heruli and Vandals. 3 down, the last in 538ad. From then on the Roman bishops were able to exercise the authority invested in them by the emperor. Judge heretics. Rule over the church. So began the dark ages, the greatest apostasy of all time. And the greatest threat to the church.
Yes, we believe there will be another, but the next one isn't a Catholic fall, its American protestantism that will fall. That's why John said twice, Babylon is fallen, is fallen. 2 falls. 2 different movements divorcing themselves from God by their infatuation with political power. That second falling away is taking place now.

 

[Brakelite]

Apostasia, from Apo, away from, and Stao, I stand. As a conjoined word, "away from standing", that is, "departure".

While you can argue it should be interpretted as rebellion, is there any one here who recognizes that this is the actual meaning of the word?

Isn't that a necessary element of an honest discussion?

Much love!

Divorce, spiritually from God as a direct choice to commit adultery... Take on a new husband being political powers, as with Babylon the Great, mother of harlots who joined herself to the kings of the world, thus abandoning the King of heaven.

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus allows such chaos to happen. Why should a redeemed person in Christ be worried about what God on the throne and Jesus allow?

Huh? Worry? It isn't about being worried. It's about being deceived. If you are already deceived by the Antichrist now, how much more so tomorrow unless you are given a different perspective of scripture and prophecy?

 

[The Light]

Thanks for not throwing any eggs LOL I'm sure Truth7t7 will be along any minute to throw them for you LOLOL

Yeah LOL. Truth7t7 and I get into it pretty good at times....a real slugfest. But he doesn't take offense no matter how heated it gets. He doesn't pull any punches either. It's all good. We are Christians and it's great practice at forgiving.

 

[Phoneman777]

LOL. OK. Would you provide scriptural support for these comments?

The Reformers recognized the book of Daniel was intrinsically tied to Revelation, therefore used both to interpret each other.

They started at the statue in Daniel 2 and turned it on its side as a timeline:
The head is Babylon, followed by MP, Greece, and Rome, and the Ten Barbarian divisions of Rome which became Europe, and during this time the Stone (Jesus) comes to destroy all these kingdoms and set up His eternal kingdom.

Next, they moved on to Daniel 7 and, for reasons that can be shown to be unavoidable, assigned the same four powers to the four beasts, with the Ten Horn beast referring to the same Barbarian tribes and the additional "Little Horn" as the Papacy, which uprooted three of the Ten Horn kingdoms (Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths) and went on to fulfill the prophetic criteria. The Reformers so wanted Protestant Historicism preserved for posterity, that they sought the services of a renown sculptor to chisel it into the "Rathous" in Germany: Below is Nebuchadnezzer with a Babylonian "Lion", Cyrus with the MP "Bear"...



...Alexander the Great with the Greek "Four headed Leopard", and Julius Caesar with the "Terrible Ten Horn Beast" of Rome:



A close look at the Ten Horns reveals the "Little Horn" among the Ten wearing the Papal Crown:



Of course, there is much more that could be said in support of Historicism and the mere fact that it was the ONLY UNIVERSAL TEACHING among Protestantism for over 300+ years alone warrants a serious examination, but unfortunately the Jesuit Futurists that do venture to take a look only do so with the intent to find fault rather than with objectivity.

 

[Brakelite]

Could you provide any scripture that identifies the Papacy as the Beast?

Characteristics of the Little Horn power of Daniel 7 – Brakelite's Breach Repair, Brick by Brick.

 

[Phoneman777]

The big picture (IMO), regarding myself gets convoluted with all the man-devised terms, my preference being what is in Scripture.
Scripture is full of this day, these days, those days, that day, specific in context, and the necessary cross referencing.
Always being specifics of who is scanning, who is studying, what, rarely IMO are on the same page or depth, yet trying to have a conversation with others easily gets off kilter.
I like the basics for any particular topic I choose to study;
Who, What, When, Why, Where...(probably the most productive highlight, that seems as days gone by, once taught in US schools.)

Flat out, I do believe Gods anger is kindling, and His Tribulations (judgements) and His Wrath (reaction to His anger) will soon be unleashed From Heaven upon the Earth and it’s inhabitants.

Flat out, I do believe inasmuch as God SAVED (Noah, ie 8 persons), during Gods First Great Tribulation (via LIFTING them UP off the face of the earth,) While God destroyed the Earth and its inhabitants.
So also Shall God LIFT UP off the face of the Earth, the Converted, Before Gods Second and Last Great Tribulation.

Glory to God,
Taken

God preserved Noah "through" the Flood down here, not above it up there. He also preserved Israel "through" the 7 last plagues, preserved Daniel "through" the lion's den, preserved the 3 Hebrew worthies "through" the furnace, preserved Esther's people "through" the death decree; Jesus prayed for God to not "take them out of this world" but to preserve us while in it. The Psalmist pictured the destruction falling all around us on all sides, not beneath us as we watch from the heavens. Job prayed that God would hide him in his grave "until Thy wrath be past", not hide him up in heaven by virtue of a "secret" rapture, secrecy is what Jesus warned us not to believe.

 

[ewq1938]

"Sunday is our MARK of authority. The (catholic) Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact".​

That isn't from the bible. The bible does not support the idea of the mark being Sunday worship.

 

[Phoneman777]

According to which historian? Certainly not according to Scripture.

To be honest, I've never heard of your position until now, so I took an objective look at it and discovered the context of "not be left one stone upon another" is to be understood by the words "that shall not be thrown down".

You may find stones lying one upon another, but you will not find any lying one upon another that have not been "thrown down" from their originally assigned construction location.

Therefore, contextually, the only thing that would frustrate the fulfillment of Jesus' words is that there be stones one atop the other which have not been thrown down. All I see are thrown down stones laying haphazardly among each other, some piled up, which is what Jesus and anyone else would expect, seeing that armies don't take the time to neatly tear down their enemy fortifications.

 

[Timtofly]

I didn't say that, and Jesus didn't say that. He said the ones TAKEN will be gathered like a dead carcase to wherever the fowls are gathered. He was pointing metaphorically about the first one taken being deceived, and definitely not gathered by Him. So who would the deceive flock to in deception? The coming false-Messiah that Jesus warned about in Matthew 24:23-26. Jesus said when they come up to you and say something like, "Lo, Christ is here", Jesus said to believe it not.

Thus Lord Jesus revealed a false Christ is definitely coming first to play Him, and it ain't about Moonies, nor Jim Jones, etc. It will be one with the power to work great signs and wonders upon the earth that IF possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect.

Jesus did say many would attempt. Jesus did not single out one "end of the world person".

 

[Phoneman777]

You mean Satan's virtual universe?

What is going to happen is all spiritual blindness will be removed and the GWT and God Himself will be seen. Everything is already there in place. All God has to do is remove spiritual blindness.


Because you are hiding behind excuses instead of just stating the truth of Scripture.

The GWT judgment takes place after the 1,000 years when the wicked resurrect. So, the GWT judgment has nothing to do with the wicked running to the rocks and mountains about to take their 1,000 year dirt nap "at the brightness of His coming" when they give up the ghost as do all sinners when they stand in the presence of holiness.

They'll gaze upon His approach until His ever increasing glory becomes too much to bear and leaves them dead in their tracks, as Jeremiah prophesied:

"And the slain of the Lord at that day shall be from one end of the Earth, even to the other end of the Earth. They shall not be lamented, nor gathered, not buried; they shall be dung on the ground" because nobody is going to be left here to bury them except Satan and his angels who could care less.​

 

[Phoneman777]

Yeah LOL. Truth7t7 and I get into it pretty good at times....a real slugfest. But he doesn't take offense no matter how heated it gets. He doesn't pull any punches either. It's all good. We are Christians and it's great practice at forgiving.

He's not very honest. I've had to hold his feet to the fire one too many times. Only interested in straw man arguments because he's incapable of honest debate, just circles the intellectual wagons around his ideas instead of allowing them to be challenged, lest he be forced to answer one.

 

[Phoneman777]

That isn't from the bible. The bible does not support the idea of the mark being Sunday worship.

Explicitly, not, but implicitly, yes.

Why can't you admit the Mark has something to do with the commandments of Goda? The unMarked are specifically described as those who "keep the commandments of God" while the Marked only break them, according to Romans 8:7 KJV, which says the wicked can't keep them even if they wanted to.

Why can't you admit that Psalm 94 - clearly a depiction of the time just before the Second Coming - has Satan doing what he's always done: making a religious law to get God's people in trouble?

How can any honest scholar deny this connection?

Therefore, all that remains is to consider which of God's laws is everyone encouraging to violate, and it ain't 1- 3 or 5 - 10. It's the one the Beast power changed and claims that change is her "MARK" of superiority over both the Bible and the Godhead.

 

[Timtofly]

In what way?

Much love!

Matthew 24:32-36

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

The parable is about Israel. Seems only Israel gets stuck figuring out parables? The fig tree is Israel in case you were wondering. That is the first event of the end. Then the Second Coming. Then the final harvest, Matthew 13, more parables. Then the Abomination that causes desolation, if necessary.

If the Gospel is a mystery to Israel, perhaps the Second Coming is a mystery to the church, since all the church needs to worry about is always being ready, and nothing else about the Second Coming. The church does not need to worry about the GT, nor the AC. The church should do every thing not to fall into apostasy. Perhaps some are enjoying prophecy (apostasy) too much, but really that prophecy is not to be enjoyed, but to overcome.

 

[Timtofly]

I have to respectfully disagree about the 70 Weeks being future. Daniel says Messiah is cut off "after" the 69th Week which must be during the 70th Week because His baptism 3 1/2 years prior marks the end of the 69 Weeks and the beginning of the 70th.

Those 3.5 years are half of the 70th week.
Jesus as Prince at the Second Coming is the last half.

Jesus from baptism to the Cross, as the anointed one, is the first half, as Messiah, then the week was cut off.

 

[Timtofly]

Explicitly, not, but implicitly, yes.

Why can't you admit the Mark has something to do with the commandments of Goda? The unMarked are specifically described as those who "keep the commandments of God" while the Marked only break them, according to Romans 8:7 KJV, which says the wicked can't keep them even if they wanted to.

Why can't you admit that Psalm 94 - clearly a depiction of the time just before the Second Coming - has Satan doing what he's always done: making a religious law to get God's people in trouble?

How can any honest scholar deny this connection?

Therefore, all that remains is to consider which of God's laws is everyone encouraging to violate, and it ain't 1- 3 or 5 - 10. It's the one the Beast power changed and claims that change is her "MARK" of superiority over both the Bible and the Godhead.

Existing past the 6 days of labor is also breaking the 4th Commandment. It says 6 days shalt thou labor. Once those 6,000 years are over, Adam's flesh just existing is breaking the 4th Commandment. The punishment is up at the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:5-7

 

[ewq1938]

Explicitly, not, but implicitly, yes.

No. There is NOTHING in the bible about the mark being Sunday worship. Why can't you admit that? You rambled about "commandments of God" to divert away from this.

The righteous always obey the commandments, nothing new there. That doesn't make the mark related to Sunday worship. Someone made that up and did not base it on the bible.

Why can't you admit that Psalm 94 - clearly a depiction of the time just before the Second Coming - has Satan doing what he's always done: making a religious law to get God's people in trouble?

This is known as a red herring fallacy. You are changing the discussion from the mark being Sunday worship to basically anything else. Psalm 94 has nothing to do with the mark or SW.

How can any honest scholar deny this connection?

There is no connection at all. SDA's are alone on this.

Therefore, all that remains is to consider which of God's laws is everyone encouraging to violate, and it ain't 1- 3 or 5 - 10. It's the one the Beast power changed and claims that change is her "MARK" of superiority over both the Bible and the Godhead.

Again, this is not from the bible. The mark in the bible allows those who serve the beast to buy and sell, that's it. Nothing about worship or Sunday, just buying or selling.

 

[Truth7t7]

Why do you constantly attribute doctrines that were held by Protestants prior to the 19th century as belonging to EGW, as if they began with her?

Christian mortalism - Wikipedia

Your dishonesty has become too much, so I bid you ado.

"Dishonesty"?

Soul Sleep is a false doctrine,and yes Ellen G. White and 7th Day Adventism teaches it

Scripture clearly teaches the wicked unsaved souls will enter Hell immediately upon death, in conscious torment, and not sleep unconsciously as 7th Day Adventism teaches

Luke 16:19-31KJV
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.