The Pre-Trib Rapture

[marks]

Correct. This assertion (which you have quoted) has become rather common, and also rather annoying. It actually reveals gross ignorance. The Resurrection/Rapture is one of the key doctrines of the Bible, but those who hate the truth attack it endlessly.

Sometimes I find the most difficult part of these discussions is trying to get people to acknowledge facts about the Bible that are inconvenient to them. If we're going to have these discussions, we have to be willing to honestly look at all of it.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Q. How many questions did the disciples ask Jesus?
A. Two - when would be the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the world.

Maybe you should read Matthew 24:3 again.

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV

Their question shows they understood the destruction event Jesus was pointing to with not one stone atop another; they associated that destruction with the day of His future 2nd coming at the end of this world. And they did not say... comings plural. They pointed there to a singular coming by Christ, at the END of this world.

 

[marks]

Like I showed from Luke 17, the actual meaning of the first one TAKEN... is about those who will be where the fowls are gathered to feast on the dead. That's Jesus' answer to His disciples question of where they those taken go to, it's not my opinion.

That's not about the rapture of the church. The gentile/Jewish church was a mystery revealed by Paul. Therefore Jesus did not prophesy about the rapture. That's a misapplication of the passage.

Your comment comes across as a slur against those who hold to the rapture.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

And if the Antichrist is already here, and has been for 1500 years, and you've failed to not only recognize him, but are surrendered to His authority in some areas already, what of the future when all hell breaks loose and confusion reigns globally?

Jesus allows such chaos to happen. Why should a redeemed person in Christ be worried about what God on the throne and Jesus allow?

 

[farouk]

That's not about the rapture of the church. The gentile/Jewish church was a mystery revealed by Paul. Therefore Jesus did not prophesy about the rapture. That's a misapplication of the passage.

Your comment comes across as a slur against those who hold to the rapture.

Much love!

@marks Although recognizing in Scripture the difference between the church and Israel seems foundational to some of us, some ppl just don't seem to see it.

In terms of what seems obvious, the church is in view in 1 Corinthians 11.26 in relation to the Lord's coming.

 

[Davy]

Sorry, but there ain't no AC rapturing folks to Paradise.

I didn't say that, and Jesus didn't say that. He said the ones TAKEN will be gathered like a dead carcase to wherever the fowls are gathered. He was pointing metaphorically about the first one taken being deceived, and definitely not gathered by Him. So who would the deceive flock to in deception? The coming false-Messiah that Jesus warned about in Matthew 24:23-26. Jesus said when they come up to you and say something like, "Lo, Christ is here", Jesus said to believe it not.

Thus Lord Jesus revealed a false Christ is definitely coming first to play Him, and it ain't about Moonies, nor Jim Jones, etc. It will be one with the power to work great signs and wonders upon the earth that IF possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect.

 

[Davy]

Dispensationalism, Historicism, Pretetism, all man's creations

True. But so is Amillennialism and Gnosticism.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus did say we're to know if it's at the door.

Israel becoming a nation in 1948 was the sign that the Second Coming is at the door.

 

[farouk]

Israel becoming a nation in 1948 was the sign that the Second Coming is at the door.

Well, Israel is said to be the key to prophecy, but for the church the main idea is to keep looking up, 'till He come' (1 Corinthians 11.26); 'looking unto Jesus' (Hebrews 11.2).

 

[marks]

@marks Although recognizing in Scripture the difference between the church and Israel seems foundational to some of us, some ppl just don't seem to see it.

In terms of what seems obvious, the church is in view in 1 Corinthians 11.26 in relation to the Lord's coming.

I think we need to recognize the importance of certain things the Bible does, and one of them is that some things are mysteries, Musterion, which means, something unknowable without it being revealed.

So when Paul declared the gentile/Jewish church (actually in Christ is neither Jew nor Greek, so Christians are not nationally identified) was a mystery and he was revealing it, we need to be willing to accept the fact that it was not revealed earlier, else it would not have been a mystery - musterion.

One of those inconvenient truths, if it were accepted, much of this debate would be greatly simplified.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Israel becoming a nation in 1948 was the sign that the Second Coming is at the door.

In what way?

Much love!

 

[farouk]

I think we need to recognize the importance of certain things the Bible does, and one of them is that some things are mysteries, Musterion, which means, something unknowable without it being revealed.

So when Paul declared the gentile/Jewish church (actually in Christ is neither Jew nor Greek, so Christians are not nationally identified) was a mystery and he was revealing it, we need to be willing to accept the fact that it was not revealed earlier, else it would not have been a mystery - musterion.

One of those inconvenient truths, if it were accepted, much of this debate would be greatly simplified.

Much love!

@marks Well, exactly; and in Acts at first even Apostles such as Peter did not seem to grasp this at first.

 

[marks]

@marks Well, exactly; and in Acts at first even Apostles such as Peter did not seem to grasp this at first.

At the beginning, God's offer of the kingdom was still intact, and had Israel received Jesus at a national level, then the gentiles would have come to know Christ through Israel. With Israel's final rejection (Acts 28), that ended, and the Gospel went directly to the Gentiles.

People reject any mention of dispensations, failing to realize even the difference between offering daily sacrifices and not offering daily sacrifices is a change in the dispensation. But without being willing to recognize and acknowledge these things, well, it's just not going to make sense, so people have to figure out a way to try to make sense of it all.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

If you want to know what the Mark of the Beast is, you've first got to identify WHO the Beast is...and the Bible plainly identifies the Papacy as the Beast, as was taught for 300+ solid years by Protestants everywhere.

So, just ask the Beast what it's "Mark" is, OK?

"Sunday is our MARK of authority. The (catholic) Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact".​

Could you provide any scripture that identifies the Papacy as the Beast?

 

[farouk]

At the beginning, God's offer of the kingdom was still intact, and had Israel received Jesus at a national level, then the gentiles would have come to know Christ through Israel. With Israel's final rejection (Acts 28), that ended, and the Gospel went directly to the Gentiles.

People reject any mention of dispensations, failing to realize even the difference between offering daily sacrifices and not offering daily sacrifices is a change in the dispensation. But without being willing to recognize and acknowledge these things, well, it's just not going to make sense, so people have to figure out a way to try to make sense of it all.

Much love!

@marks The Levitical feasts and offerings are a great study; but if ppl don't see a dispensational transition to what they point to, it's hard to see how they can clearly distinguish unique characteristics of the church.

Acts 13.46: "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

 

[Taken]

The Protestant Reformation was fought over doctrine and the light of truth expelled from the world the centuries of Dark Ages...let's not return to those Dark Ages by promoting the demonic philosophy of Ecumenicalism which says "lay doctrine aside and let's just hug each other in the name of Jesus".

It’s 105 degrees, not hugging anyone today!
And yes, Jesus’ Doctrine!

 

[Taken]

In what way?

Much love!

1948 Israel having it’s own recognized Nation, has seen over the years, a great influx of “scattered” Israel taking up residency/citizenship in the present State of Israel.
There are some Christian Missionaries who focus expressly on aiding financially “scattered” Jews/Tribesmen to move to Israel.

A pre gathering of sorts?? Future, 144,000 sent to mt Zion, 2 witnesses sent to Jerusalem...needs be a Jewish population to hear??
Speculating.

 

[Phoneman777]

Just saying how it seems to me.

Much love!

No way, bro. Not my opinion at all.

 

[Davy]

That's not about the rapture of the church. The gentile/Jewish church was a mystery revealed by Paul. Therefore Jesus did not prophesy about the rapture. That's a misapplication of the passage.

Your comment comes across as a slur against those who hold to the rapture.

Much love!

I really don't know where you are coming from in the above, certainly not from Bible Scripture.

The Luke 17 Scripture I posted is a WARNING from Lord Jesus about the FIRST ONE TAKEN from the two in the field, one taken and the other left. Those in Christ still waiting for Jesus' coming are the ones that are left in the field still working.

And Yes, Lord Jesus CERTAINLY DID speak of the idea of His coming and gathering of His Church. It is written in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture emphatically. And that perfectly aligns with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Jesus' coming and gathering of His Church.

In those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 chapters, Jesus even used the idea of a thief breaking in as symbolic for the day of His coming to gather His Church. And He said if the goodman of the house had known in what 'watch' the thief would come, then he wouldn't have allowed his house to be broken into. So yeah, all that is symbolic of the day of His coming "as a thief" (Revelation 16:15) to gather His faithful Church.

Luke 18:6-8
6 And the Lord said, "Hear what the unjust judge saith."
7 And shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him, though He bear long with them?
8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?
KJV

Yeah, that's going to be the real question when Jesus appears from Heaven coming in the clouds, and all the nations mourn because of it. Will He find many then that still have the Faith? And His Church is... going through the "great tribulation" event, like He forewarned us.

 

[Phoneman777]

And these are unbelievers, not the born again.

So we are not talking about the disillusionment of the spirit children of God. The real Christians are caught up, and the rest are here on the earth to endure the 70th week.

And if pre-trib is wrong, and I'm here as the plagues begin . . . do you suppose the Holy Spirit within me is incapable to keep me? I don't. I trust God with much bigger things than this!

Much love!

I have to respectfully disagree about the 70 Weeks being future. Daniel says Messiah is cut off "after" the 69th Week which must be during the 70th Week because His baptism 3 1/2 years prior marks the end of the 69 Weeks and the beginning of the 70th.