The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Taken]

Thanks, @Naomi25 , for the reply. I must confess I do see it as literal, not least because of seeing Jews, Gentiles and the church of God as distinct groups (1 Corinthians 10.32); thus, the rapture by definition relates to the church, whereas the rule on earth in power and glory relates to another aspect of the Lord's coming.

Agree.
@ Naomi looks at a present and future difference, with no consideration of “an interim”, so to speak. That “interim” is Christ’s Kingdom.

Presently, Humans are present on Earth with a mix of converted (Christ IN them/God Unseen withIN a man, believers, under their own power and still in danger of being deceived by evil spirits and wicked men, and flat out unbelievers.

There is an interim... for 1,000 years, of Christ’s Kingdom, ruling from Jerusalem, His Throne, and His Kingdom encompassing the Land promised to Abraham and his heirs.....Occupying Christ’s Kingdom is those who were Saved IN Christ and those who were Saved by enduring Belief in God, in Jesus until the end of their physical lives....raised, occupying Christ’s Kingdom.
* AS WELL, outside of Christ’s Kingdom, are MORTALS, generationally living and dying during the 1,000 year reign, VOID of Satan’s Influence, (unlike NOW)....The Mortals will be establishing their governments, their heads of State, their cities, their nations. It will be similar to what we have seen. Some nations head WILL KEEP their Nation “under God”, Some nations will deflect and make their government head their “god ruler”....with NO BLAME being attributed TO the Evil of Satan, but rather entirely TO Wicked men.
* At the end of the 1,000 years OF Christ’s KINGDOM, Satan is Loosed....
Satan’s goal is to AGAIN deceive all the Nations.
The Wicked lead nations are Already primed to make their allegiance TO Satan. The nations that established and Kept their nation “under God”, Shall continue their allegiance TO God.
* War shall ensue...ie Armageddon...Removal of Satan his demonic angels, Wicked men....thereafter SHALL the Earth be renewed and Gods Heavenly Kingdom open be also Earths Kingdom of God., whereby NO Evil spirits are, and NO Wicked men are.

God IS Just.
The 1,000 years reign, IS mankind’s LAST Opportunity to Come into Belief and men make their allegiance to God...(or Not) Men shall no longer have the EXCUSE to Blame a higher power than man ON Satan’s cunning trickery.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Technically this is wrong, the last trumpet is the Jubilee trumpet sounded on Yom Kippur to mark the Jubilee year. Christ comes in the clouds on a jubilee year, just like he did during his first advent, John the Baptist being the "trumpet" that sounded his coming 6 months prior to his ministry.

No, I understand exactly what I am speaking of, the best you could hope fir was to try and fudge the points I made because you couldn't overcome them. Why not just accept the facts? God gave Israel Holy Convocations (dress rehearsals) in order to foreshadow what is to come. Do you now God calls the Sabbath a Holy Convocation also? It shadows the rest we enter into in Christ, this is why Paul says in Galatians that when FAITH [in Jesus] has come the schoolmaster (The Law) is no longer needed. Every day is Holy in Christ Jesus.

Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

LIKEWISE, every Feast was also a Holy Convocation.

Let's begin with some background on the Jewish practice of blowing trumpets during their festivals. The type of trumpet used in Rosh Hashanah is a ram's horn (a shofar) that is blown during the feast, but the horn can also be called a trumpet. In fact, Jews commonly called the event the Feast of the Trumpets for that reason.

During the feast, the trumpet is blown a total of 100 times, with the final horn blast lasting much longer than the first 99 blasts. This final blast pictures the trumpet sound which will announce the Rapture of the Church, which Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 15. By the way, the trumpet blast associated with the Rapture is not to be confused with the trumpet judgments of Tribulation. Rather, it is associated with the final horn of the Feast of Trumpets.

The feast of Rosh Hashanah is a shadow or picture of the Rapture

 

[Taken]

All good, one thing we do know is, ain't gonna be no rapture

That is YOUR position. And thus for you, Suffer Gods Wrath which is the whole point of Gods Great Tribulation.

Me...I already AM SAVED, and Like Faithful Noah, AM not appointed to Suffer Gods Wrath, and Like Faithful Noah, Shall be Saved AS Faithful Noah was SAVED FROM Gods Wrath, BY BEING Lifted UP Above the FACE OF THE EARTH, (which the Earth and it’s inhabitants SHALL BE Experiencing Gods Wrath), Just like IN Noah’s Day.

This is what happens when Gods Anger Increases;
Ex 32:
[9] And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
[10] Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

This is what happens when Gods Anger Increases:
Gen 6:
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

This is Faithful Noah being sent INTO THE ARK for SEVEN days BEFORE the Flood rains of Gods Destruction upon the Earth Begins.
Gen 7:
[4] For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

This is Faithful Noah being RISEN UP ABOVE THE FACE OF THE EARTH, WHile God DESTROYS the EARTH with the EARTH, and ALL THAT IS ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.
Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
[19] And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Have you ever been 22 feet Above the highest mountain on earth?
Open your eyes....you would be IN THE CLOUDS!!!


Nothing new under the Sun. What was SHALL BE AGAIN!
Ecc 1:
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

1 Thes 4: (For SEVEN YEARS those IN Christ shall be with the Lord IN THE CLOUDS above the face of the Earth, WHILE the Wrath of God IS Destroying the Face of the Earth.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rapture comes from the Greek and Latin words Raptur. Meaning caught up.

Gods ANGER of Rejection is Stirred up and Revealed By Gods response Through His Wrath: If YOU ARE UPON the Face of the EARTH during Gods Great Tribulation...
It is BECAUSE of your Disbelief and still in your natural Flesh, to be Killed BY Gods Wrath.

Rom 1:
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

All has been Scripturally Revealed. The Signs are coming into fruition of a world government advocating they are the Safe Keepers of mens lives and they are the Saviors of mens lives....and every effort to Silence God is effected in their platform.

 

[Taken]

Help me out with the non sense

Understanding of Spiritual things is different than the Understanding of Carnal Minded things.

Removal of the Saved from the face of the Earth IS a Spiritual Act, Because A Spiritual Act is GOING to LITERALLY NEGATIVELY AFFECT the physical Earth and the Carnally Minded Occupants UPON the Earth.

John 3:
[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

 

[Ronald D Milam]

This then is when the OT faithful are raised from the dead.

Correct, the Jews who are married to God (Old Testament) do not need to be raised and go marry Jesus in Heaven, they will be raised at the VERY END just as Dan. 12:1-2 says. Now, I will drop something 100 time deeper than the Feasts of Trumps ending the Harvest (Church age) on you, I will tell you exactly what the 1290 and 1335 means. I got the Feast of Trumps from other people, but its still of God, I got the 1290 and 1335 directly from the Lord, and basically no one can understand it, because they have a mental picture (men's traditions) that the AoD has to be the Anti-Christ, its not, it is the False Prophet who places the Image, even Rev. 13 tells us this. No one can fully understand the end times until they understand what the 1290 and 1335 means. So, you are referencing the proper things, but then, like others (everyone) you can't quite understand it. I think I will finish answering this then do a separate post on the 1290 and 1335.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The Last Trump, the Trump of God,

Which can be seen here, just after the Rev. chapters 2 andv3 Church Age Period:

Rev. 4:1 After this(After the Church Age) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Jesus' voice reverberates (Trumpets quaver the sounds, thus Jesus voice does the same) and only we in Christ can hear this Rapture call, which ends the Harvest of souls/Church Age.

This is a trumpet of resurrection. When this trumpet sounds, the dead are raised.

On the lines of this discussion, here, the first question that comes to my mind is this. Does this resurrection everybody who has died trusting in God? Both OT and NT? All who have died "saved" up until the coming of Christ in glory?

Only those in Christ, me, you, Paul, John etc. all of Christs Bride will go to heaven to marry the Lamb of God. All of the Old Testament Saints who were saved through faith in the Promised Seed's coming Sacrifice, were married unto God already, as will those 144,000 (3-5 million Jews) who repent during the 70th week tribulation period.

Rev. 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

The Jews of the Old Testament are raised at the very end. The 144,000 who are saved during the tribulation, who are the Jews who repent and flee Judea, who are the 1/3 who repent as seen in Zechariah 13:8-9, who are indeed 3-5 million Jews, who Jesus will set up his kingdom with, will be present when Jesus returns, I don't think on Mt Zion, I think that is prose showing Jesus will set up the Kingdom Age with the Jews, they are really in the Petra/Borah area, this is why Isaiah says Jesus comes from Edom with blood stained garments.

Now I will answer you 1290 and 1335, the Feasts of Trumps is a much easier question to answer, most people should see that tbh, the 1290 and 1335 are the key tom understanding all end time prophecy, so I don't like to clutter that point of emphasis up with other stuff. I am going to get me some coffee, rest awhile, pray that God uses the Holy Spirit to enlighten people with this, because sometimes I assume people should just understand. Once God showed me the 1290 and 1335, everything else became easy to see. I only git this because I decided to do an Exegesis on Danial chapters 122 and 12, and thus Gid blessed me with by far the biggest understanding (revelation) of my 37 years of being a Christian, well tat is besides God telling me in a vision in 1986 that the Anti-Christ was alive and in the world today (in 1986).

People can't accept what is obvious at times because of 2 + 2 = 5 teachings.

 

[marks]

The tension here, I think, lies not just in ‘understanding the words to mean exactly what they say’…but in our ability to harmonise this passage with other passages in order that they do not contradict one another.
I assume you agree that is both good and necessary?

What I think is that we need to allow all the passages to just say what they say, and to understand them in such a way as to harmonize with all other passages, which I find to be exactly the same thing.

There are no contradictions. When I find somethat that seems like a contradiction, I've learned, find the word, find the phrase, that I've inserted some of my own meaning into. Once I do that, the contradictions seem to evaporate.

Anytime I come to a passage where I look at it and say to myself it must be meaning something a little different, I realize its my view has to become a little different. I need to let the words just say what they say.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Why not just accept the facts?

ditto

I Just presented a fact that you are unable to accept which is wholly biblical.

Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land. And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family. (Leviticus 25:9-10)

Here is another fact for you, John the Baptist began his ministry six months before Jesus began his Ministry. Jesus performed his first miracle before passover, six months before that would have been Yom Kippur.... he was the trumpet sounding the Jubilee year.

Here is another fact the word Jubilee means Trumpet/rams horn.
So the last trumpet is the Jubilee trumpet.

Here are more facts for you....
The Jubilee, Sound the Trumpet ⋆ The Firmament Record

Why not just accept the fact that you are wrong?

 

[marks]

Because if I only take Matt 25 to be saying that salvation comes to these people through their works, then I invalidate everything Paul says about salvation coming through faith alone.

No, that's not true! Salvation came to US by faith alone, receiving, trusting in Jesus, that His death removed our sins.

But before Jesus died, it was different! Not that faith was different, but the delivery was different.

Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. But it wasn't the Gospel message of Jesus Christ that was preached to Abraham, it was, "you are going to have more children then you can count." But who is saying that to you or me?

So in the coming time, there will be a group of gentiles separated from the other, and Jesus will declare them righteous because they did the right things.

If you count that there is no change in God's delivery of His grace to save between the time of the gentile church, and the time of Jacob's Trouble (but he will be saved out of it), then you are left with your quandery, and to wonder what Jesus REALLY must have meant. God will have His prophets in the world, who knows what they will say?

I think Jesus' words are to be believed just as He said them.

And in the Millennium, what then? Is faith still faith when Jesus is present, ruling with an iron rod?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Rev. 4:1 After this(After the Church Age) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

I don't see the rapture in this myself. It seems we do share many of the same ideas, though, and I look forward to exploring this more. Any you are correct, I don't have a full handle on this, and partly because I've never found how to understand the 1290 and 1335 days. So I'm interested in your thoughts, but I'll need to see it in the Bible itself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

May I ask…how do you harmonise the idea that salvation can…apparently…be only by faith…but also by works?

It was by offering sacrifices previously.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

It was by offering sacrifices previously.

Much love!

It would in any case have been by the obedience of faith rather than by supposedly meritorious human works.

 

[Timtofly]

I think you are showing your fundamental lack of understanding in what the phrase ‘elohim’ means….and perhaps what being created ‘in the image of God’ means.

Humans have always been created with a physical/spiritual component. We were made that way before the fall, and we’ll have that element after Christ returns.
Elohim, however, refers to spiritual beings.

Pass 104:4 - Who makes his angels spirits.
John 4:24 - God is spirit.
Rev 16:14 - They are demonic spirits.
1 Sam 28:13 - The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth”.

In these verses we see that angels are spiritual beings. God is a spiritual being. Demons are spiritual beings. And even the ‘ghost’ of Samuel is labelled as a ‘god’…because he was a spiritual being.
The point being, humans are not ‘elohim’. And, of course, no elohim are like God…he is species unique…having all the attributes that make him God. But when we look through scripture we absolutely find others that are referred to as both ‘spiritual beings’ and even ‘gods’.

But I suppose the point remains…just because humans were/are created in the ‘image’ of God does not mean they will ever be just spiritual beings. God created us with both spiritual/physical characteristics.

Adam died both spiritually and physically that instant. I do grasp that "god" image.

The problem is you do not attribute that point to Adam prior to his disobedient act. You do not see that is how God made humans on day 6.

God did not create humans simply "with a spiritual component". God created humans even above the ability of all angels including the archangels. Even Satan. That is why Satan wanted Adam to disobey God, which took all that away from humans and left them in the image of Adam.

Notice the sons of God saw the daughters of Adam's flesh and blood as attractive. Eve saw the fruit was attractive. After destroying Adam and Eve, Satan seemed to work on the rest of the sons of God like he did Eve.

I do not think those created on the 6th day turned against God. They had multiplied for generations. It was the generations after Enoch that sinned against God, while Enoch a fallen sinner was found righteous in God's sight.

We do not know much about these sons of God. They no longer lived on earth after the Flood. Just like the rebel angels were also bound in the pit until after the Second Coming.

At the Second Coming humans, the redeemed church, will be instantly restored to the full image of God. So no one can say Adam wasn't instantly changed from life to death, while at the same time claim we will instantly be changed from death to life. What is soon about to happen to the redeemed on earth is exactly what instantly happened to Adam, but in reverse order. Adam and Eve literally died both physically and spiritually. At the Second Coming the redeemed will instantly become alive literally both physically and spiritually.

All on earth will see creation in it's full spiritual glory. They will be afraid, really, really afraid. Then they will listen to Satan, because he no longer needs to hide in the shadows.

 

[marks]

See…I think the real difference between you and I, is this ‘seed of Israel’ notion. Look again at this passage:

The difference between us is that I am dispensationalist an you apparently are not. When these "seeming contradictions" appear, such as, we are saved by grace through faith and not of works, while, the sheep are declared righteous because of their works.

How can we be saved by faith and them by works?

My answer - it's a different dispensation. And I see signs of that all over. So there are differences, just like between OT and NT, and the 1000 yr kingdom.

Your answer - the verse doesn't exactly mean that. You have to merge it with Ephesians, and realize it can't have the apparent meaning it seems to have.

Is that fair?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Galatians 3:25-29
But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, but there will be when Jesus comes. So this is about the church now, Paul the apostle to the gentiles.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Not sure what you mean by ‘remoting’.
I agree that Christ will reign on earth, most likely from Jerusalem. But I reject the idea that it will be…or can be seen in scripture to be…some ‘intermediate’ age between this one, and the eternal one. I think Christ will reign, physically on earth, during the eternal age, on the new earth in the new Jerusalem.
Hmmm. Too bad the Millennium is not supportable as an intermediate age.

Nothing intermediate. This is how earth was intended before sin entered. God is just finishing what He started in Genesis 1-2

6000 years of sin was the intermediate stage of current creation.

 

[marks]

It would in any case have been by the obedience of faith rather than by supposedly meritorious human works.

Absolutely! Malachi gives a pretty direct answer to those whose hearts are not it it.

I expect that in the 70th week, it will be a big deal that the beast wants to eradicate the Jews. I'm expecting the two witnesses may well be telling the world, These are God's chosen nation, treat them accordingly!! And the tyrant will do all in his power to against those who help Israel.

The witnesses will be protecting Isreal being able to strike the earth with any plague whenever they want! Just imagine! Then halfway through, the man of sin sits in the temple, the witnesses are dead, and the great tribulation begins.

Where will faith be? Who will be the one's to help the Jews in the face of that? When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Now this is Satan copying the true Christ's return, this is the knowledge that Satan comes before the true Christ.

Wrong, the Lamb is opening the Seals, not Satan.

Why are you giving Satan credit for God's redemption of mankind?

The Second Coming is the most important future event. It will start to change creation back to a pre-sin condition. Satan has no interest in removing sin.

 

[marks]

those 144,000 (3-5 million Jews)

144,000? Or Millions?

?

 

[Taken]

What I think is that we need to allow all the passages to just say what they say, and to understand them in such a way as to harmonize with all other passages, which I find to be exactly the same thing.

There are no contradictions. When I find somethat that seems like a contradiction, I've learned, find the word, find the phrase, that I've inserted some of my own meaning into. Once I do that, the contradictions seem to evaporate.

Anytime I come to a passage where I look at it and say to myself it must be meaning something a little different, I realize its my view has to become a little different. I need to let the words just say what they say.

Much love!

Always remember....
Scripture IS KNOWLEDGE, for anyone to Hear, Read, Verify with Scripture what they Hear.
UNDERSTANDING the Scriptures According to God, Comes from God.

:)

 

[marks]

Always remember....
Scripture IS KNOWLEDGE, for anyone to Hear, Read, Verify with Scripture what they Hear.
UNDERSTANDING the Scriptures According to God, Comes from God.

:)

And the other thing is . . . the Bible is not a book of facts to learn, it's a means by which we can know God.

Much love!