The Only True God, the God of Jesus Christ.

[robert derrick]

I'm surprised that you cannot understand such a simple thing as this! If the USA president sends troops to save some Americans being persecuted in a foreign country, then the president will be regarded as their saviour, because it was his decision and orders that it be done. The troops that went and saved the Americans would also be regarded as their saviours. Similarly it was God that decided how to save mankind and gave the orders and authority to Jesus to become our saviour.

There is just one person at the top of the management, or government, tree. In the example above it is the president. Likewise, although there may be many gods (mighty ones with a lot of power), there is just one almighty god who is above all others, which is God Yahweh. Yahweh's Son Jesus is and always will be subservient to Him, which is why after he has established God's governmental kingdom on the Earth he will then hand it over to our Father:

(1 Corinthians 15:28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

To help others, the verse you quoted above (but again didn't supply a reference for) was (WEB):

(Isaiah 45:21) Declare and present it. Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has shown this from ancient time? Who has declared it of old? Haven’t I, Yahweh? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior; There is no one besides me.​

Here Yahweh declares there is no other God like Him, or greater than or equal to Him, and that he is a saviour. When it came to saving mankind from death, he delegated that task to His son Jesus. It's not that difficult to understand and believe - unlike trying to believe that two seperate persons are the one and same God, and occasionally three persons (although you seem to be claiming that Jesus is in fact Yahweh, so you seem to be resisting believing in a Trinity)!


There are many verses of Scripture that indicate that Jesus and God are seperate and distinct, as well you know because I and others have quoted them on numerous occasions, e.g.:

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

Well of course we all know that Jesus was the exception! Surely that goes without saying. Although once again, there is no such thing as immortal flesh - you still haven't grasped that! Adam obviously didn't have immortal flesh - he died! Jesus also was not "God from everlasting"!

(2Co 4:11) For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus may be revealed in our mortal flesh.

(1Ti 6:13) I command you before God, who gives life to all things, ...;
(1Ti 6:16) who alone has immortality,​

Adam forfeited his right (or privilege) to live eternally by disobeying God's command to not eat the fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17). The wages of sin is death, but to regain life and to live eternally (to be saved) is a gift of God (Romans 6:23). Once again, Adam's flesh was not immortal (obviously!), and his blood was not incorruptible, and the life of God was not in Adam's blood - where do you get that from? Nobody is infused with Jesus' human blood - again, where did you get that from?! Christians have a hope of eternal, immortal life as a spirit being - physical blood will be of no use to them!


How about :

(John 1:32) John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove out of heaven, and it remained on him.​

Scripture reference? How does Jesus carry around the physical blood with him? And why?!

(John 6:51) "... the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​

He has given his flesh and blood as a sacrifice - he doesn't still keep it!


Jesus was the only begotten son of God in the flesh.


The cross (and his flogging and beatings previous to that) did kill him! Jesus willingly submitted himself to it.


Really? The Scriptures give a different reason (Matthew 27):

45) Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
51) Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.
52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
54) Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God.”​

The Father came down from heaven to be His own Son? More nonsense!


We are symbolically washed in the blood of Jesus. Jesus only symbolically alludes to drinking his blood and eating his flesh, to explain that he was the bread of life come down from heaven:

(John 6:33) For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:63) It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.​

It was the death of his soul, his life, that was the redeeming sacrifice. He was different from the Old Testament prophets in that he was sinless - his sacrifice was only acceptable because he was sinless, which no human could be because of inheriting a corrupt and sinful nature.


If you drink blood it will be digested and pass out of the body. It won't be absorbed directly into your blood, that would require a blood transfusion. As Jesus said, "The flesh profits nothing".


There is no verse in the Bible that says that Jesus is Jehovah (or Yahweh). If Jehovah has now changed His name to Jesus then you now have two persons with the same name - two of the Trinity that you believe in. What about poor old Mr. Holy Spirit - doesn't he ever get a name?!

Yes I understand the simplicity of field commanders and savior judges sent to Israel, and if Jesus were created like other humans, you would be correct. I do not misunderstand the concept, I utterly reject it. The Word was not created.

Jesus was not the last great human judge and saviour sent by God to deliver His people. He was not like Muhammed of the religion of Islam, which is exactly who you compare Jesus to be: the last great prophet and human saviour to 'help' God by their Saviour.

Even as the word was not created by God to 'help' Him create.

"Likewise, although there may be many gods (mighty ones with a lot of power), there is just one almighty god who is above all others, which is God Yahweh."

And so many gods, with One true God. Even as many saviours, with One true Saviour.

Scripture did not commend them as gods to whom the word of God came, but condemns them as equally foolish as Adam and Even, whom Scripture first called 'as gods' after transgression. Jesus was only using the Scripture to justify calling Himself Son of God, since they ignorantly believed they were 'gods', by false handling of Scripture, as you apparently do here, in order to make Jesus just another human god among human gods.

And all such gods are no gods (Gal 4), and if you believe yourself one, then you idolize yourself and your own mental godlike intellect. (Jerem 16:20)

And these 'mighty gods' you speak of with such honor, would also be the mightily corrupted ones called giants on the earth by the daughters of men and corrupted angels.

 

[robert derrick]

I'm surprised that you cannot understand such a simple thing as this! If the USA president sends troops to save some Americans being persecuted in a foreign country, then the president will be regarded as their saviour, because it was his decision and orders that it be done. The troops that went and saved the Americans would also be regarded as their saviours. Similarly it was God that decided how to save mankind and gave the orders and authority to Jesus to become our saviour.

There is just one person at the top of the management, or government, tree. In the example above it is the president. Likewise, although there may be many gods (mighty ones with a lot of power), there is just one almighty god who is above all others, which is God Yahweh. Yahweh's Son Jesus is and always will be subservient to Him, which is why after he has established God's governmental kingdom on the Earth he will then hand it over to our Father:

(1 Corinthians 15:28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

To help others, the verse you quoted above (but again didn't supply a reference for) was (WEB):

(Isaiah 45:21) Declare and present it. Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has shown this from ancient time? Who has declared it of old? Haven’t I, Yahweh? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior; There is no one besides me.​

Here Yahweh declares there is no other God like Him, or greater than or equal to Him, and that he is a saviour. When it came to saving mankind from death, he delegated that task to His son Jesus. It's not that difficult to understand and believe - unlike trying to believe that two seperate persons are the one and same God, and occasionally three persons (although you seem to be claiming that Jesus is in fact Yahweh, so you seem to be resisting believing in a Trinity)!


There are many verses of Scripture that indicate that Jesus and God are seperate and distinct, as well you know because I and others have quoted them on numerous occasions, e.g.:

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

Well of course we all know that Jesus was the exception! Surely that goes without saying. Although once again, there is no such thing as immortal flesh - you still haven't grasped that! Adam obviously didn't have immortal flesh - he died! Jesus also was not "God from everlasting"!

(2Co 4:11) For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus may be revealed in our mortal flesh.

(1Ti 6:13) I command you before God, who gives life to all things, ...;
(1Ti 6:16) who alone has immortality,​

Adam forfeited his right (or privilege) to live eternally by disobeying God's command to not eat the fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17). The wages of sin is death, but to regain life and to live eternally (to be saved) is a gift of God (Romans 6:23). Once again, Adam's flesh was not immortal (obviously!), and his blood was not incorruptible, and the life of God was not in Adam's blood - where do you get that from? Nobody is infused with Jesus' human blood - again, where did you get that from?! Christians have a hope of eternal, immortal life as a spirit being - physical blood will be of no use to them!


How about :

(John 1:32) John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove out of heaven, and it remained on him.​

Scripture reference? How does Jesus carry around the physical blood with him? And why?!

(John 6:51) "... the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​

He has given his flesh and blood as a sacrifice - he doesn't still keep it!


Jesus was the only begotten son of God in the flesh.


The cross (and his flogging and beatings previous to that) did kill him! Jesus willingly submitted himself to it.


Really? The Scriptures give a different reason (Matthew 27):

45) Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
51) Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.
52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
54) Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God.”​

The Father came down from heaven to be His own Son? More nonsense!


We are symbolically washed in the blood of Jesus. Jesus only symbolically alludes to drinking his blood and eating his flesh, to explain that he was the bread of life come down from heaven:

(John 6:33) For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:63) It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.​

It was the death of his soul, his life, that was the redeeming sacrifice. He was different from the Old Testament prophets in that he was sinless - his sacrifice was only acceptable because he was sinless, which no human could be because of inheriting a corrupt and sinful nature.


If you drink blood it will be digested and pass out of the body. It won't be absorbed directly into your blood, that would require a blood transfusion. As Jesus said, "The flesh profits nothing".


There is no verse in the Bible that says that Jesus is Jehovah (or Yahweh). If Jehovah has now changed His name to Jesus then you now have two persons with the same name - two of the Trinity that you believe in. What about poor old Mr. Holy Spirit - doesn't he ever get a name?!

"It's not that difficult to understand and believe - unlike trying to believe that two seperate persons are the one and same God, and occasionally three persons (although you seem to be claiming that Jesus is in fact Yahweh, so you seem to be resisting believing in a Trinity)!"

You show yourself to be an ironclad dogmatist of literal Scripture pertaining to the One LORD and God, as One Person only. No way Jose for there being Three in Unity as One. Nope. Can't even be considered. Though there be enough Scriptures to at least consider it.

And yet, when the same ironclad Scripture speaks of only One Saviour and Redeemer LORD the God and Lord Jesus Christ. All of a sudden, the iron is too hot and melts, and with plenty of water to swim in, you can cool that formerly rock solid iron into another shape: Two different Saviours in one Salvation: One God the other human, which has no Scripture to suggest it.

So, One LORD and God? Yes, absolutely, only One Person. And yet One Saviour and Redeemer LORD and GOD? No, absolutely not, Two Persons.

2 Persons in One God? No, absolutely not. 2 Persons in One salvation? Yes. Absolutely so.

But what about Scripture declaring them both to be but One in both cases equally? You need to take a careful look at the Greek, and a deeper study in the Bible...

 

[robert derrick]

I'm surprised that you cannot understand such a simple thing as this! If the USA president sends troops to save some Americans being persecuted in a foreign country, then the president will be regarded as their saviour, because it was his decision and orders that it be done. The troops that went and saved the Americans would also be regarded as their saviours. Similarly it was God that decided how to save mankind and gave the orders and authority to Jesus to become our saviour.

There is just one person at the top of the management, or government, tree. In the example above it is the president. Likewise, although there may be many gods (mighty ones with a lot of power), there is just one almighty god who is above all others, which is God Yahweh. Yahweh's Son Jesus is and always will be subservient to Him, which is why after he has established God's governmental kingdom on the Earth he will then hand it over to our Father:

(1 Corinthians 15:28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

To help others, the verse you quoted above (but again didn't supply a reference for) was (WEB):

(Isaiah 45:21) Declare and present it. Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has shown this from ancient time? Who has declared it of old? Haven’t I, Yahweh? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior; There is no one besides me.​

Here Yahweh declares there is no other God like Him, or greater than or equal to Him, and that he is a saviour. When it came to saving mankind from death, he delegated that task to His son Jesus. It's not that difficult to understand and believe - unlike trying to believe that two seperate persons are the one and same God, and occasionally three persons (although you seem to be claiming that Jesus is in fact Yahweh, so you seem to be resisting believing in a Trinity)!


There are many verses of Scripture that indicate that Jesus and God are seperate and distinct, as well you know because I and others have quoted them on numerous occasions, e.g.:

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

Well of course we all know that Jesus was the exception! Surely that goes without saying. Although once again, there is no such thing as immortal flesh - you still haven't grasped that! Adam obviously didn't have immortal flesh - he died! Jesus also was not "God from everlasting"!

(2Co 4:11) For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus may be revealed in our mortal flesh.

(1Ti 6:13) I command you before God, who gives life to all things, ...;
(1Ti 6:16) who alone has immortality,​

Adam forfeited his right (or privilege) to live eternally by disobeying God's command to not eat the fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17). The wages of sin is death, but to regain life and to live eternally (to be saved) is a gift of God (Romans 6:23). Once again, Adam's flesh was not immortal (obviously!), and his blood was not incorruptible, and the life of God was not in Adam's blood - where do you get that from? Nobody is infused with Jesus' human blood - again, where did you get that from?! Christians have a hope of eternal, immortal life as a spirit being - physical blood will be of no use to them!


How about :

(John 1:32) John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove out of heaven, and it remained on him.​

Scripture reference? How does Jesus carry around the physical blood with him? And why?!

(John 6:51) "... the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​

He has given his flesh and blood as a sacrifice - he doesn't still keep it!


Jesus was the only begotten son of God in the flesh.


The cross (and his flogging and beatings previous to that) did kill him! Jesus willingly submitted himself to it.


Really? The Scriptures give a different reason (Matthew 27):

45) Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
51) Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.
52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
54) Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God.”​

The Father came down from heaven to be His own Son? More nonsense!


We are symbolically washed in the blood of Jesus. Jesus only symbolically alludes to drinking his blood and eating his flesh, to explain that he was the bread of life come down from heaven:

(John 6:33) For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:63) It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.​

It was the death of his soul, his life, that was the redeeming sacrifice. He was different from the Old Testament prophets in that he was sinless - his sacrifice was only acceptable because he was sinless, which no human could be because of inheriting a corrupt and sinful nature.


If you drink blood it will be digested and pass out of the body. It won't be absorbed directly into your blood, that would require a blood transfusion. As Jesus said, "The flesh profits nothing".


There is no verse in the Bible that says that Jesus is Jehovah (or Yahweh). If Jehovah has now changed His name to Jesus then you now have two persons with the same name - two of the Trinity that you believe in. What about poor old Mr. Holy Spirit - doesn't he ever get a name?!

"There are many verses of Scripture that indicate that Jesus and God are seperate and distinct"

Distinct yes, but the only time 'separate' was being separated with the Father remaining in Heaven, and the Son on earth, and the Holy Spirit delivering commandments from the Father to His Son, because the Son had submitted Himself to the father as example for us on earth.

The LORD the true God in heaven was called the Son of God upon the earth, while the true God and Father remained in heaven alone.

"Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else." (Deut 4)

The Son is the only true God who was in heaven from everlasting and upon the earth beneath. The Father has never been upon the earth beneath.

That is the 'trinity' teaching. You don't have to agree with it to fathom it. I earnestly fathom what you say, and demonstrate it to you. You don't have to agree with something in a debate to understand it. I understand you perfectly, and you are wrong.

 

[robert derrick]

I'm surprised that you cannot understand such a simple thing as this! If the USA president sends troops to save some Americans being persecuted in a foreign country, then the president will be regarded as their saviour, because it was his decision and orders that it be done. The troops that went and saved the Americans would also be regarded as their saviours. Similarly it was God that decided how to save mankind and gave the orders and authority to Jesus to become our saviour.

There is just one person at the top of the management, or government, tree. In the example above it is the president. Likewise, although there may be many gods (mighty ones with a lot of power), there is just one almighty god who is above all others, which is God Yahweh. Yahweh's Son Jesus is and always will be subservient to Him, which is why after he has established God's governmental kingdom on the Earth he will then hand it over to our Father:

(1 Corinthians 15:28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

To help others, the verse you quoted above (but again didn't supply a reference for) was (WEB):

(Isaiah 45:21) Declare and present it. Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has shown this from ancient time? Who has declared it of old? Haven’t I, Yahweh? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior; There is no one besides me.​

Here Yahweh declares there is no other God like Him, or greater than or equal to Him, and that he is a saviour. When it came to saving mankind from death, he delegated that task to His son Jesus. It's not that difficult to understand and believe - unlike trying to believe that two seperate persons are the one and same God, and occasionally three persons (although you seem to be claiming that Jesus is in fact Yahweh, so you seem to be resisting believing in a Trinity)!


There are many verses of Scripture that indicate that Jesus and God are seperate and distinct, as well you know because I and others have quoted them on numerous occasions, e.g.:

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

Well of course we all know that Jesus was the exception! Surely that goes without saying. Although once again, there is no such thing as immortal flesh - you still haven't grasped that! Adam obviously didn't have immortal flesh - he died! Jesus also was not "God from everlasting"!

(2Co 4:11) For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus may be revealed in our mortal flesh.

(1Ti 6:13) I command you before God, who gives life to all things, ...;
(1Ti 6:16) who alone has immortality,​

Adam forfeited his right (or privilege) to live eternally by disobeying God's command to not eat the fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17). The wages of sin is death, but to regain life and to live eternally (to be saved) is a gift of God (Romans 6:23). Once again, Adam's flesh was not immortal (obviously!), and his blood was not incorruptible, and the life of God was not in Adam's blood - where do you get that from? Nobody is infused with Jesus' human blood - again, where did you get that from?! Christians have a hope of eternal, immortal life as a spirit being - physical blood will be of no use to them!


How about :

(John 1:32) John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove out of heaven, and it remained on him.​

Scripture reference? How does Jesus carry around the physical blood with him? And why?!

(John 6:51) "... the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​

He has given his flesh and blood as a sacrifice - he doesn't still keep it!


Jesus was the only begotten son of God in the flesh.


The cross (and his flogging and beatings previous to that) did kill him! Jesus willingly submitted himself to it.


Really? The Scriptures give a different reason (Matthew 27):

45) Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
51) Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.
52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
54) Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God.”​

The Father came down from heaven to be His own Son? More nonsense!


We are symbolically washed in the blood of Jesus. Jesus only symbolically alludes to drinking his blood and eating his flesh, to explain that he was the bread of life come down from heaven:

(John 6:33) For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:63) It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.​

It was the death of his soul, his life, that was the redeeming sacrifice. He was different from the Old Testament prophets in that he was sinless - his sacrifice was only acceptable because he was sinless, which no human could be because of inheriting a corrupt and sinful nature.


If you drink blood it will be digested and pass out of the body. It won't be absorbed directly into your blood, that would require a blood transfusion. As Jesus said, "The flesh profits nothing".


There is no verse in the Bible that says that Jesus is Jehovah (or Yahweh). If Jehovah has now changed His name to Jesus then you now have two persons with the same name - two of the Trinity that you believe in. What about poor old Mr. Holy Spirit - doesn't he ever get a name?!

"Well of course we all know that Jesus was the exception! Although once again, there is no such thing as immortal flesh - you still haven't grasped that! Adam obviously didn't have immortal flesh - he died!"

-Jesus was exception to what?

Adam died with transgression. He would not have died without transgression.

And so, the Life of God in a man on earth to never die without transgression, was not immortal? Or rather did not have immortal flesh? If not, then he had mortal flesh and blood, which by definition is corrupted, because death came upon the flesh and blood by sin. (Rom 5)

No death, no corruption. No corruption, immortal.

You refuse to acknowledge the immortal flesh of the 1st and 2nd Adam's, because you don't want the Son coming down from heaven (John 3), because you want him coming from man created by God. If His blood was uncorrupted from birth, as with the 1st Adam, He could not come from men, but only from heaven as God in man.

And you do not want the 1st Adam to have uncorrupted blood by God, because then you would have to acknowledge the same for the 2nd Adam.

Jesus came from heaven with the pure blood to shed on the cross, not the Father. He was neither upon the earth, nor did He ever have blood to shed. It is by the blood of the Lamb, which He alone has, that we are saved and have life, even as he. Not the Father. Jesus is the One Saviour, LORD, Jehovah. Not the Father, Yahweh.

 

[robert derrick]

I'm surprised that you cannot understand such a simple thing as this! If the USA president sends troops to save some Americans being persecuted in a foreign country, then the president will be regarded as their saviour, because it was his decision and orders that it be done. The troops that went and saved the Americans would also be regarded as their saviours. Similarly it was God that decided how to save mankind and gave the orders and authority to Jesus to become our saviour.

There is just one person at the top of the management, or government, tree. In the example above it is the president. Likewise, although there may be many gods (mighty ones with a lot of power), there is just one almighty god who is above all others, which is God Yahweh. Yahweh's Son Jesus is and always will be subservient to Him, which is why after he has established God's governmental kingdom on the Earth he will then hand it over to our Father:

(1 Corinthians 15:28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

To help others, the verse you quoted above (but again didn't supply a reference for) was (WEB):

(Isaiah 45:21) Declare and present it. Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has shown this from ancient time? Who has declared it of old? Haven’t I, Yahweh? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior; There is no one besides me.​

Here Yahweh declares there is no other God like Him, or greater than or equal to Him, and that he is a saviour. When it came to saving mankind from death, he delegated that task to His son Jesus. It's not that difficult to understand and believe - unlike trying to believe that two seperate persons are the one and same God, and occasionally three persons (although you seem to be claiming that Jesus is in fact Yahweh, so you seem to be resisting believing in a Trinity)!


There are many verses of Scripture that indicate that Jesus and God are seperate and distinct, as well you know because I and others have quoted them on numerous occasions, e.g.:

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

Well of course we all know that Jesus was the exception! Surely that goes without saying. Although once again, there is no such thing as immortal flesh - you still haven't grasped that! Adam obviously didn't have immortal flesh - he died! Jesus also was not "God from everlasting"!

(2Co 4:11) For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus may be revealed in our mortal flesh.

(1Ti 6:13) I command you before God, who gives life to all things, ...;
(1Ti 6:16) who alone has immortality,​

Adam forfeited his right (or privilege) to live eternally by disobeying God's command to not eat the fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17). The wages of sin is death, but to regain life and to live eternally (to be saved) is a gift of God (Romans 6:23). Once again, Adam's flesh was not immortal (obviously!), and his blood was not incorruptible, and the life of God was not in Adam's blood - where do you get that from? Nobody is infused with Jesus' human blood - again, where did you get that from?! Christians have a hope of eternal, immortal life as a spirit being - physical blood will be of no use to them!


How about :

(John 1:32) John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove out of heaven, and it remained on him.​

Scripture reference? How does Jesus carry around the physical blood with him? And why?!

(John 6:51) "... the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​

He has given his flesh and blood as a sacrifice - he doesn't still keep it!


Jesus was the only begotten son of God in the flesh.


The cross (and his flogging and beatings previous to that) did kill him! Jesus willingly submitted himself to it.


Really? The Scriptures give a different reason (Matthew 27):

45) Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
51) Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.
52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
54) Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God.”​

The Father came down from heaven to be His own Son? More nonsense!


We are symbolically washed in the blood of Jesus. Jesus only symbolically alludes to drinking his blood and eating his flesh, to explain that he was the bread of life come down from heaven:

(John 6:33) For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:63) It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.​

It was the death of his soul, his life, that was the redeeming sacrifice. He was different from the Old Testament prophets in that he was sinless - his sacrifice was only acceptable because he was sinless, which no human could be because of inheriting a corrupt and sinful nature.


If you drink blood it will be digested and pass out of the body. It won't be absorbed directly into your blood, that would require a blood transfusion. As Jesus said, "The flesh profits nothing".


There is no verse in the Bible that says that Jesus is Jehovah (or Yahweh). If Jehovah has now changed His name to Jesus then you now have two persons with the same name - two of the Trinity that you believe in. What about poor old Mr. Holy Spirit - doesn't he ever get a name?!

"Adam forfeited his right (or privilege) to live eternally by disobeying God's command to not eat the fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17)."

So you do agree he had eternal life so long as he obeyed and had right to the tree of life. Even as them the eternal future (Rev 22).

Perhaps you want to argue he had eternal life by the life of God breathed into his nostrils, but not breathed into his blood, and so no immortal flesh thereby, which sounds like the kind of intellectualized parsing you love to do. Well, go ahead; however,

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood." The eternal life of God was breathed into the nostrils of man, so that His life was breathed into the uncorrupted blood for immortality of the flesh: Uncorrupted and immortal, and thereby became a living soul.

"Adam's flesh was not immortal (obviously!), and his blood was not incorruptible, and the life of God was not in Adam's blood"

Obviously you are willfully blind to simple logic and sense of Scripture. The Life of God was in Adam's nostrils, but not in his blood? Got it.

Sounds like the aromaic perfume of those gods you talk about, like the sweat of Ra. Or more likely the spit of Jehovah, when He really blew into Adam's nostrils.

The 1st Adam's blood was not 'incorruptible', but uncorrupted. And the 2nd Adam's blood was uncorrupted coming into the world from heaven. When Jesus died on the cross without sin, then He rose again with the forever incorruptible and precious blood of the Lamb. Even as His immortal body was forever glorified with the marks of the cross thereon.

Jesus was the only one of two with uncorrupted flesh and blood from birth, yet He lived so without sinning against God and His own blood, even as formication is a sin against one's own body (1 Cor 6). And it is the same reason why His flesh saw no corruption in the tomb at all, because He had not sinned and corrupted His own blood after the similitude of Adam's transgression.

His uncorrupted immortal flesh was raised in glorious body, with incorruptible blood for any to drink in His Spirit, that in our corruptible mortal bodies, we should have His eternal Life in the inner man, waiting for our own raising incorruptible and immortal with Him.

And you want to compare this with a created word and human saviour and gods getting to live for ever? If there was ever a hope of Adam with transgression, that is it. (JW's have this 1st Adam hope, right?)

 

[robert derrick]

I'm surprised that you cannot understand such a simple thing as this! If the USA president sends troops to save some Americans being persecuted in a foreign country, then the president will be regarded as their saviour, because it was his decision and orders that it be done. The troops that went and saved the Americans would also be regarded as their saviours. Similarly it was God that decided how to save mankind and gave the orders and authority to Jesus to become our saviour.

There is just one person at the top of the management, or government, tree. In the example above it is the president. Likewise, although there may be many gods (mighty ones with a lot of power), there is just one almighty god who is above all others, which is God Yahweh. Yahweh's Son Jesus is and always will be subservient to Him, which is why after he has established God's governmental kingdom on the Earth he will then hand it over to our Father:

(1 Corinthians 15:28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

To help others, the verse you quoted above (but again didn't supply a reference for) was (WEB):

(Isaiah 45:21) Declare and present it. Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has shown this from ancient time? Who has declared it of old? Haven’t I, Yahweh? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior; There is no one besides me.​

Here Yahweh declares there is no other God like Him, or greater than or equal to Him, and that he is a saviour. When it came to saving mankind from death, he delegated that task to His son Jesus. It's not that difficult to understand and believe - unlike trying to believe that two seperate persons are the one and same God, and occasionally three persons (although you seem to be claiming that Jesus is in fact Yahweh, so you seem to be resisting believing in a Trinity)!


There are many verses of Scripture that indicate that Jesus and God are seperate and distinct, as well you know because I and others have quoted them on numerous occasions, e.g.:

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

Well of course we all know that Jesus was the exception! Surely that goes without saying. Although once again, there is no such thing as immortal flesh - you still haven't grasped that! Adam obviously didn't have immortal flesh - he died! Jesus also was not "God from everlasting"!

(2Co 4:11) For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus may be revealed in our mortal flesh.

(1Ti 6:13) I command you before God, who gives life to all things, ...;
(1Ti 6:16) who alone has immortality,​

Adam forfeited his right (or privilege) to live eternally by disobeying God's command to not eat the fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17). The wages of sin is death, but to regain life and to live eternally (to be saved) is a gift of God (Romans 6:23). Once again, Adam's flesh was not immortal (obviously!), and his blood was not incorruptible, and the life of God was not in Adam's blood - where do you get that from? Nobody is infused with Jesus' human blood - again, where did you get that from?! Christians have a hope of eternal, immortal life as a spirit being - physical blood will be of no use to them!


How about :

(John 1:32) John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove out of heaven, and it remained on him.​

Scripture reference? How does Jesus carry around the physical blood with him? And why?!

(John 6:51) "... the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​

He has given his flesh and blood as a sacrifice - he doesn't still keep it!


Jesus was the only begotten son of God in the flesh.


The cross (and his flogging and beatings previous to that) did kill him! Jesus willingly submitted himself to it.


Really? The Scriptures give a different reason (Matthew 27):

45) Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
51) Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.
52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
54) Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God.”​

The Father came down from heaven to be His own Son? More nonsense!


We are symbolically washed in the blood of Jesus. Jesus only symbolically alludes to drinking his blood and eating his flesh, to explain that he was the bread of life come down from heaven:

(John 6:33) For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:63) It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.​

It was the death of his soul, his life, that was the redeeming sacrifice. He was different from the Old Testament prophets in that he was sinless - his sacrifice was only acceptable because he was sinless, which no human could be because of inheriting a corrupt and sinful nature.


If you drink blood it will be digested and pass out of the body. It won't be absorbed directly into your blood, that would require a blood transfusion. As Jesus said, "The flesh profits nothing".


There is no verse in the Bible that says that Jesus is Jehovah (or Yahweh). If Jehovah has now changed His name to Jesus then you now have two persons with the same name - two of the Trinity that you believe in. What about poor old Mr. Holy Spirit - doesn't he ever get a name?!

"Nobody is infused with Jesus' human blood - again, where did you get that from?!"

Once again, you speak as a humanist. Scripture does not say we are 'infused' with anything. That is a lame effort of degrading Scriptural truth in the Spirit. We drink His now incorruptible blood in the Spirit (John 6)(1 Peter 1). If not, you have no life in you.

We drink His blood and have His eternal life in His Spirit, who is more true and real and eternal than your humanist symbolism and ideologies. You do not understand being in His Spirit nor being filled thereby, because you are not willing to be born of His Spirit, because you are plainly offended and murmur among yourselves at the drinking His blood: "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

This may indeed be the very point at which you dogmatically refuse ever to even consider God the Son, for it is painfully obvious that you are utterly disgusted by it. The incorruptible blood of the Lamb is no more symbolic than the uncorrupted blood of Jesus shed on the cross. If the drinking is symbolic, then the blood is equally symbolic, and the forgivenss of sins is only symbolic.

The uncorrupted blood of Jesus shed on the cross is as real and true as the incorruptible blood of the Lamb in resurrection power.

"If you drink blood it will be digested and pass out of the body. It won't be absorbed directly into your blood, that would require a blood transfusion. As Jesus said, "The flesh profits nothing"."

Being a thoroughgoing humanist, you speak like a silly child of humanism, and so your fleshy thinking is useless pertaining to the things of God, Who is a Spirit.

Jesus' expounded privately to His carnal-minded disciples to rebuke the foolish notion of physical drinking and eating of His blood and flesh, which He had made specifically as law of Moses to condemn for this very point in time.

He was not referring to physically drinking and eating His uncorrupted blood and immortal flesh, even as today we do not do so physically. That is either a completely beyond ignorance statement, or just another lame effort at ridiculing the Spiritual, by speaking sarcastically according to the physical.

Jesus was prophesying of His resurrection with incorruptible blood and glorified flesh, to be drank and eaten in the Spirit: His words are Spirit and life, and His blood and flesh are drink and meat indeed and truly in the Spirit.

It would have been profitless to physically drink His shed blood, though uncorrupted by sin. They would have only gained condemnation of Scripture by transgressing the law.

 

[robert derrick]

I'm surprised that you cannot understand such a simple thing as this! If the USA president sends troops to save some Americans being persecuted in a foreign country, then the president will be regarded as their saviour, because it was his decision and orders that it be done. The troops that went and saved the Americans would also be regarded as their saviours. Similarly it was God that decided how to save mankind and gave the orders and authority to Jesus to become our saviour.

There is just one person at the top of the management, or government, tree. In the example above it is the president. Likewise, although there may be many gods (mighty ones with a lot of power), there is just one almighty god who is above all others, which is God Yahweh. Yahweh's Son Jesus is and always will be subservient to Him, which is why after he has established God's governmental kingdom on the Earth he will then hand it over to our Father:

(1 Corinthians 15:28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

To help others, the verse you quoted above (but again didn't supply a reference for) was (WEB):

(Isaiah 45:21) Declare and present it. Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has shown this from ancient time? Who has declared it of old? Haven’t I, Yahweh? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior; There is no one besides me.​

Here Yahweh declares there is no other God like Him, or greater than or equal to Him, and that he is a saviour. When it came to saving mankind from death, he delegated that task to His son Jesus. It's not that difficult to understand and believe - unlike trying to believe that two seperate persons are the one and same God, and occasionally three persons (although you seem to be claiming that Jesus is in fact Yahweh, so you seem to be resisting believing in a Trinity)!


There are many verses of Scripture that indicate that Jesus and God are seperate and distinct, as well you know because I and others have quoted them on numerous occasions, e.g.:

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

Well of course we all know that Jesus was the exception! Surely that goes without saying. Although once again, there is no such thing as immortal flesh - you still haven't grasped that! Adam obviously didn't have immortal flesh - he died! Jesus also was not "God from everlasting"!

(2Co 4:11) For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus may be revealed in our mortal flesh.

(1Ti 6:13) I command you before God, who gives life to all things, ...;
(1Ti 6:16) who alone has immortality,​

Adam forfeited his right (or privilege) to live eternally by disobeying God's command to not eat the fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17). The wages of sin is death, but to regain life and to live eternally (to be saved) is a gift of God (Romans 6:23). Once again, Adam's flesh was not immortal (obviously!), and his blood was not incorruptible, and the life of God was not in Adam's blood - where do you get that from? Nobody is infused with Jesus' human blood - again, where did you get that from?! Christians have a hope of eternal, immortal life as a spirit being - physical blood will be of no use to them!


How about :

(John 1:32) John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove out of heaven, and it remained on him.​

Scripture reference? How does Jesus carry around the physical blood with him? And why?!

(John 6:51) "... the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​

He has given his flesh and blood as a sacrifice - he doesn't still keep it!


Jesus was the only begotten son of God in the flesh.


The cross (and his flogging and beatings previous to that) did kill him! Jesus willingly submitted himself to it.


Really? The Scriptures give a different reason (Matthew 27):

45) Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
51) Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.
52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
54) Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God.”​

The Father came down from heaven to be His own Son? More nonsense!


We are symbolically washed in the blood of Jesus. Jesus only symbolically alludes to drinking his blood and eating his flesh, to explain that he was the bread of life come down from heaven:

(John 6:33) For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:63) It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.​

It was the death of his soul, his life, that was the redeeming sacrifice. He was different from the Old Testament prophets in that he was sinless - his sacrifice was only acceptable because he was sinless, which no human could be because of inheriting a corrupt and sinful nature.


If you drink blood it will be digested and pass out of the body. It won't be absorbed directly into your blood, that would require a blood transfusion. As Jesus said, "The flesh profits nothing".


There is no verse in the Bible that says that Jesus is Jehovah (or Yahweh). If Jehovah has now changed His name to Jesus then you now have two persons with the same name - two of the Trinity that you believe in. What about poor old Mr. Holy Spirit - doesn't he ever get a name?!

"We are symbolically washed in the blood of Jesus. Jesus only symbolically alludes to drinking his blood and eating his flesh, to explain that he was the bread of life come down from heaven."

To the humanist, the things of the Spirit can only be symbolic, because the Spirit Himself is not real, but only a force of nature. You are corrupted flesh and blood only, driven by a carnal mind. You refuse to be born in the inward man by the Spirit, who drinks the blood of Jesus that is drink indeed in the Spirit, because you are disgusted and offended by the blood as real and true in Christ Jesus.

The only symbolic thing having to do with the blood of Jesus is communion with wine. That is symbolic. The Spirit and the blood and His Word are not: (1 John 5)

"There are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

Your witness of symbology only is earthy, sensual, and without the Spirit (James 3)(Jude). You keep yourself separated from Him, because you are offended at His blood.

"This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth." (1 John 5)

You say Jesus came by man from man as a god among gods to whom the word of God came, because you do not want to believe He came down from heaven as God in man, with His own uncorrupted blood, as witnessed by the Spirit and testified by the Word. But to the corrupted carnal mind these things of the Spirit are foolishness, as is the uncorrupted blood shed on the cross.

Without God coming down out of heaven to be in the man Christ Jesus, God would never be in man that believes, being born of God and His Spirit. You reject being born of the blood of the Lamb, because you reject drinking the blood of the Lamb.

And so, you would rather believe the pagan theology of a created man, called Christ with baptism, who was then deified after death, because he did good work of deliverance for God on earth, even as those He sent in time past.

The Word was God and was with God the Father and created all things in the beginning, and the Word came down from heaven to be made flesh on the earth (John 3:13). He did not have His beginning by being created on earth.

There is no Scripture whatsoever of the Father 'creating' the Son, nor giving 'Life and Spirit' to the Son.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (I John 5)

Not One and the same Person, even as we in the Son and the Father are not one and the same person. (John 17:22)

 

[Wrangler]

"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God...And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

That's nice but Jesus is not God and we know this because Jesus died and was resurrected while the Bibles teaches us that God is Spirit and never changes.

 

[robert derrick]

I'm surprised that you cannot understand such a simple thing as this! If the USA president sends troops to save some Americans being persecuted in a foreign country, then the president will be regarded as their saviour, because it was his decision and orders that it be done. The troops that went and saved the Americans would also be regarded as their saviours. Similarly it was God that decided how to save mankind and gave the orders and authority to Jesus to become our saviour.

There is just one person at the top of the management, or government, tree. In the example above it is the president. Likewise, although there may be many gods (mighty ones with a lot of power), there is just one almighty god who is above all others, which is God Yahweh. Yahweh's Son Jesus is and always will be subservient to Him, which is why after he has established God's governmental kingdom on the Earth he will then hand it over to our Father:

(1 Corinthians 15:28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

To help others, the verse you quoted above (but again didn't supply a reference for) was (WEB):

(Isaiah 45:21) Declare and present it. Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has shown this from ancient time? Who has declared it of old? Haven’t I, Yahweh? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior; There is no one besides me.​

Here Yahweh declares there is no other God like Him, or greater than or equal to Him, and that he is a saviour. When it came to saving mankind from death, he delegated that task to His son Jesus. It's not that difficult to understand and believe - unlike trying to believe that two seperate persons are the one and same God, and occasionally three persons (although you seem to be claiming that Jesus is in fact Yahweh, so you seem to be resisting believing in a Trinity)!


There are many verses of Scripture that indicate that Jesus and God are seperate and distinct, as well you know because I and others have quoted them on numerous occasions, e.g.:

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

Well of course we all know that Jesus was the exception! Surely that goes without saying. Although once again, there is no such thing as immortal flesh - you still haven't grasped that! Adam obviously didn't have immortal flesh - he died! Jesus also was not "God from everlasting"!

(2Co 4:11) For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus may be revealed in our mortal flesh.

(1Ti 6:13) I command you before God, who gives life to all things, ...;
(1Ti 6:16) who alone has immortality,​

Adam forfeited his right (or privilege) to live eternally by disobeying God's command to not eat the fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17). The wages of sin is death, but to regain life and to live eternally (to be saved) is a gift of God (Romans 6:23). Once again, Adam's flesh was not immortal (obviously!), and his blood was not incorruptible, and the life of God was not in Adam's blood - where do you get that from? Nobody is infused with Jesus' human blood - again, where did you get that from?! Christians have a hope of eternal, immortal life as a spirit being - physical blood will be of no use to them!


How about :

(John 1:32) John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove out of heaven, and it remained on him.​

Scripture reference? How does Jesus carry around the physical blood with him? And why?!

(John 6:51) "... the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​

He has given his flesh and blood as a sacrifice - he doesn't still keep it!


Jesus was the only begotten son of God in the flesh.


The cross (and his flogging and beatings previous to that) did kill him! Jesus willingly submitted himself to it.


Really? The Scriptures give a different reason (Matthew 27):

45) Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
51) Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.
52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
54) Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God.”​

The Father came down from heaven to be His own Son? More nonsense!


We are symbolically washed in the blood of Jesus. Jesus only symbolically alludes to drinking his blood and eating his flesh, to explain that he was the bread of life come down from heaven:

(John 6:33) For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:63) It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.​

It was the death of his soul, his life, that was the redeeming sacrifice. He was different from the Old Testament prophets in that he was sinless - his sacrifice was only acceptable because he was sinless, which no human could be because of inheriting a corrupt and sinful nature.


If you drink blood it will be digested and pass out of the body. It won't be absorbed directly into your blood, that would require a blood transfusion. As Jesus said, "The flesh profits nothing".


There is no verse in the Bible that says that Jesus is Jehovah (or Yahweh). If Jehovah has now changed His name to Jesus then you now have two persons with the same name - two of the Trinity that you believe in. What about poor old Mr. Holy Spirit - doesn't he ever get a name?!

"His sacrifice was only acceptable because he was sinless, which no human could be because of inheriting a corrupt and sinful nature."

So, He was sinless while inheriting the corrupt and sinful nature of man, by which no man is without sin?

Or, He was sinless without inheriting the corrupt and sinful nature of man, yet without uncorrupted blood and immortal flesh, which can only be corrupted with death by sin?

Or, He came into the world with uncorrupted flesh and blood and sinned not, and was raised in glorified flesh and incorruptible blood forever.

I'll go with the Scripture and choose the 1st option, and forego the twisted reasoning of unbelief of the first two.

 

[robert derrick]

I'm surprised that you cannot understand such a simple thing as this! If the USA president sends troops to save some Americans being persecuted in a foreign country, then the president will be regarded as their saviour, because it was his decision and orders that it be done. The troops that went and saved the Americans would also be regarded as their saviours. Similarly it was God that decided how to save mankind and gave the orders and authority to Jesus to become our saviour.

There is just one person at the top of the management, or government, tree. In the example above it is the president. Likewise, although there may be many gods (mighty ones with a lot of power), there is just one almighty god who is above all others, which is God Yahweh. Yahweh's Son Jesus is and always will be subservient to Him, which is why after he has established God's governmental kingdom on the Earth he will then hand it over to our Father:

(1 Corinthians 15:28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

To help others, the verse you quoted above (but again didn't supply a reference for) was (WEB):

(Isaiah 45:21) Declare and present it. Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has shown this from ancient time? Who has declared it of old? Haven’t I, Yahweh? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior; There is no one besides me.​

Here Yahweh declares there is no other God like Him, or greater than or equal to Him, and that he is a saviour. When it came to saving mankind from death, he delegated that task to His son Jesus. It's not that difficult to understand and believe - unlike trying to believe that two seperate persons are the one and same God, and occasionally three persons (although you seem to be claiming that Jesus is in fact Yahweh, so you seem to be resisting believing in a Trinity)!


There are many verses of Scripture that indicate that Jesus and God are seperate and distinct, as well you know because I and others have quoted them on numerous occasions, e.g.:

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

Well of course we all know that Jesus was the exception! Surely that goes without saying. Although once again, there is no such thing as immortal flesh - you still haven't grasped that! Adam obviously didn't have immortal flesh - he died! Jesus also was not "God from everlasting"!

(2Co 4:11) For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus may be revealed in our mortal flesh.

(1Ti 6:13) I command you before God, who gives life to all things, ...;
(1Ti 6:16) who alone has immortality,​

Adam forfeited his right (or privilege) to live eternally by disobeying God's command to not eat the fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17). The wages of sin is death, but to regain life and to live eternally (to be saved) is a gift of God (Romans 6:23). Once again, Adam's flesh was not immortal (obviously!), and his blood was not incorruptible, and the life of God was not in Adam's blood - where do you get that from? Nobody is infused with Jesus' human blood - again, where did you get that from?! Christians have a hope of eternal, immortal life as a spirit being - physical blood will be of no use to them!


How about :

(John 1:32) John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove out of heaven, and it remained on him.​

Scripture reference? How does Jesus carry around the physical blood with him? And why?!

(John 6:51) "... the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​

He has given his flesh and blood as a sacrifice - he doesn't still keep it!


Jesus was the only begotten son of God in the flesh.


The cross (and his flogging and beatings previous to that) did kill him! Jesus willingly submitted himself to it.


Really? The Scriptures give a different reason (Matthew 27):

45) Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
51) Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.
52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
54) Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God.”​

The Father came down from heaven to be His own Son? More nonsense!


We are symbolically washed in the blood of Jesus. Jesus only symbolically alludes to drinking his blood and eating his flesh, to explain that he was the bread of life come down from heaven:

(John 6:33) For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:63) It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.​

It was the death of his soul, his life, that was the redeeming sacrifice. He was different from the Old Testament prophets in that he was sinless - his sacrifice was only acceptable because he was sinless, which no human could be because of inheriting a corrupt and sinful nature.


If you drink blood it will be digested and pass out of the body. It won't be absorbed directly into your blood, that would require a blood transfusion. As Jesus said, "The flesh profits nothing".


There is no verse in the Bible that says that Jesus is Jehovah (or Yahweh). If Jehovah has now changed His name to Jesus then you now have two persons with the same name - two of the Trinity that you believe in. What about poor old Mr. Holy Spirit - doesn't he ever get a name?!

"He has given his flesh and blood as a sacrifice - he doesn't still keep it!The cross (and his flogging and beatings previous to that) did kill him! Jesus willingly submitted himself to it. If you drink blood it will be digested and pass out of the body. It won't be absorbed directly into your blood, that would require a blood transfusion."

A carnal mind of unbelief completely submerged in corrupt flesh and blood, without any life in the Spirit and understanding thereof.

The Spirit and the kingdom of God are more real than that of mortal flesh and blood in this world which shall all pass away, but the Word of the Lord and His blood and His flesh shall abide forever.

His uncorrupted blood in the immortal flesh on earth, was raised incorruptible and glorified from the grave, after shedding and giving all on the cross without sin.

"He has given his flesh and blood as a sacrifice - he doesn't still keep it!"

Yes, He does:
"Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. Lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain." (John 20)(Rev 5)

"his flogging and beatings previous to that) did kill him!"

No, it didn't:
"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." (John 10)

The more you speak, the more carnally blind you become, and your great exclamations only nail your spiritless coffin shut more firmly.

 

[robert derrick]

There is no verse in the Bible that says that Jesus is Jehovah (or Yahweh). If Jehovah has now changed His name to Jesus then you now have two persons with the same name - two of the Trinity that you believe in. What about poor old Mr. Holy Spirit - doesn't he ever get a name?!

"There is no verse in the Bible that says that Jesus is Jehovah (or Yahweh)."

True but the LORD God of Abraham is called Jehovah, and the the same LORD of LORDS is called Jesus.

"If Jehovah has now changed His name to Jesus then you now have two persons with the same name."

1. Even your carnal faculty has become faulty: They would be 2 different names for one person. Which is Scriptural, even as Jacob becomes Israel by new name. And so with God.

2. God does not 'change' His name, as in His past name no longer applies, even as he is still called Jacob or Israel in Scripture.

3. Once God's name is given, it is for ever: "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever." (Exodus 3)

According to your own faulty reasoning, the God of Abraham so named in Scripture should never have been named by another name in Scripture: Jehovah.

And so we see there is more than one name for God, given by God in His Scripture from His own mouth.

And God has not just two names, but many names He has named for Himself: All equally eternal and true and honorable, but only one name will He name Himself that will be above all His other names.

These are the many names of the LORD in heaven:

the LORD, the everlasting God (Gen 21), The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob this is my name for ever (Exodus 3). by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them (Exodus 6), the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God (Deut 10), O give thanks to the Lord of lords (Psalm 136), the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel (Isaiah 47), The LORD of hosts is his name (Isaiah 51).


The many names of the Lord on earth:

He shall call his name Immanuel (Isaiah 7), and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Jerem 23), Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH (Zech 6), she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (Matthew 1), our Lord Jesus Christ who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords (1 Tim 6), these shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings (Rev 17), and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True (Rev 19) and his name is called The Word of God (Rev 19) And His vesture was dipped in blood and had a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS (Rev 19), I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Rev 22)

The Lord of Lords was named by His name Jehovah, after He was known by His name God Almighty, and the same Lord of Lords is now called by God Himself the name of Jesus:

"And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name." (Isaiah 62)

This single prophecy of Scripture concludes the whole matter about the eternal name of God and many names of God given by Himself: By Scripture the LORD named Himself by His mouth a new name: Jesus.

"She shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS."
"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

And so, since you are in love with the gods, of whom you claim Jesus is but one, then call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: God of Abraham, Jehovah, Lord of lords, Immanuel, and Jesus, who's name is above every name ever named, including the many names God Almighty ever called Himself.

"Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen" (Rev 1)

He bears the first name of the LORD God, and the last name of our Redeemer and Saviour: Jesus, LORD of LORDs and KING of KINGS.

And the reason His name, Jesus, is above all the other of His many names, is because it is by His name, Jesus, that God the Son came down from heaven to shed His own uncorrupted blood on the cross, that He might save and redeem mankind form our sins, and so be called Saviour and Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ.

so that now any who believe may freely drink of His incorruptible blood of the Lamb, and have right to the tree of Life.

And any who do not call upon the name of the Lord of lords, Jesus, is not saved and shall never drink of His blood, for His Highest name is despised (Malachi 1:6), and His precious and incorruptible blood is rejected.

There is no life of Christ in them that drink not the blood of the Lamb in the Spirit of God by grace through the faith of Jesus.

 

[Curtis]

The original Hebrew name of God re-discovered in 1,000 Bible manuscripts

He often said he had a God, want me to post some references?

The watchtower claims Jesus is only A God, in John 1:1, but since Jehovah is the one true god, that would make Jesus a false God.

And why is it that Jehovah knows of NO other Gods existing in Isaiah? Why doesn’t He know there’s A god who exists who is with Him in John 1:1?

 

[robert derrick]

That's nice but Jesus is not God and we know this because Jesus died and was resurrected while the Bibles teaches us that God is Spirit and never changes.

You people have no standing.

When you have no answer, you have several methods:
1. Go to the Greek and change everything from the simple that it was to the absurd that you make it.

"In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God's presence, and what God was, the Word was."

You have added 4 words that no Greek ever foresaw, especially not John. I mean, it doesn't even rate as craftiness.

2. You through out the Scripture as illigit.

3. You symbolize it away.

4. And Now, it's just nice, but no cigar.

You have insisted Jehovah is the only LORD, because Scripture plainly says the LORD God and none other, and then when the same Scripture calls Jesus LORD of LORDS, then that's nice.

Go ahead, and keep doing your thing, so that I can learn more about your cult for your manual, but you are not a serious people to be taken seriously.

 

[robert derrick]

The watchtower claims Jesus is only A God, in John 1:1, but since Jehovah is the one true god, that would make Jesus a false God.

And why is it that Jehovah knows of NO other Gods existing in Isaiah? Why doesn’t He know there’s A god who exists who is with Him in John 1:1?

Correction, Jesus is not a God, but only a god. A god among many gods to whom the word of God has come.

They ;iterally think God was commending Adam and Even, when He called them as gods after their transgression.

The JW 'hope of Adam' is to live immortally in mortal bodies, with sins and forgiveness of sins forever and ever. And they get to reign with Jesus, whacking all those for idolatry for worshipping Jesus as Lord and God.

 

[APAK]

The following verses tell us that Jesus (the Word) did exist before the earth was created, because he created it:

John 1:1-3 (REB):

In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God's presence, and what God was, the Word was. He was with God at the beginning, and through him all things came to be; without him no created thing came into being.​

Colossians 1:16 (WEB):

For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.​

These scripture verses speak nothing about Christ, or him existing before his first existence of his human birth around 2000 years ago. And let alone creating the earth and 'all things.' You have not taken this scripture seriously and must have a predefined agenda to save or promote.

John 1:1-3 does not speak to the Christ at all. The Greek transliterated word 'logos' can never be any person, unless wishful thoughts need to make it so, to force alignment with John 1:14. Many have done this as you have here. I'm surprised you think that logos is a person let alone the Christ. Nowhere in scripture is 'logos' uses for the identity of a person because it never means a person.

Moving along to your next scripture area:

Read the previous Verse 15 before reading Col 1:16, for a scant although critical contextual view.

In Verse 15, Christ is called the image of the living God, the first born of 'all creation.' With your view of verse 16, verse 15 already begins to point out that your meaning of it is very suspect and really incorrect.

Verse 15 clearly says Christ cannot be God, the Father, and that he is ONLY the image or human image to be exact of the living God YHWH. And the Christ is the first born of all 'new' human creatures and other non-human creation(s) for the Father - for his purpose, the Church. So where does it remotely say the Christ is the creator of our world in Verse 15, Nowhere. This verse 15 is establishing amongst other things what 'all creation' and then 'all things' is going to mean, in Verse 16.

Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating “one new man” (his Church) out of both the ethnic Israelites and the other nations. In pouring out the gift of Holy Spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38), the Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, that is, the “new man,” their new nature (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 4:24). The Church is the major thing that Christ was permitted to create over 'all' HIS creation and then the other things were for the church and its growth and wellbeing.

This word 'all' used here has a very specific applicability to Christ and not a general 'all' for creation of all the heavens and the earth that only the Father possesses. We can get easily get drawn up into thinking it means the 'all' of everything because we are talking about the Father and Son. 'He ate 'all' the biscuits.' Yes. 'all' the biscuits in the house not in the community, or the world.

The Body of Christ was a brand new entity, created by Christ from the world. He had to also create the structure and positions that would allow it to function, both in the invisible spiritual world (positions for the angels that would minister to the Church—see Rev. 1:1, “his angel”) and in the visible physical world (positions and ministries here on earth, Rom. 12:4-8; Eph. 4:7-11).

Thus, Col 1:16b describes these physical and spiritual realities of Christ's creation, by the phrase, 'things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible'

Then read Verses 17 and 18 together to know that Christ is the first human born of the Father to immortality as the creator of specific areas dedicated to the Church and permitted by the Father.

Christ is the centerpiece the central power and authority that binds all of the church and its structures together. He holds sway and the command over the angels, and the believers on the earth, and those that sleep in him. He is this creator, not of the Father's works of creation, that was done through his own divine word as stated in John 1:1-3. Again, Christ is never mention in John 1:1-3.

One final note to consider about Col 1:16. It could be the clinger to want you to re-examine your conclusion.

Are you familiar with the term 'encircling' as used like 'book ends' to really foot stomp a critical meaning to ensure you did not miss it? We do it in public briefings today when we introduce a topic and conclude again with it. Well it is used here deliberately in Col 1:16.

Keeping this devise in mind, 'all things were created' occurs at the beginning and end of the verse, encircling the list of created things: 'For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.' The things that are 'created' are not rocks, trees, birds and animals, because those things were created by God, the Father. And why would Christ encircle or circle back to emphasis he was the creator of all the Father's work when the subject is all about the Church, the CHURCH!.

These things, 'thrones, powers, rulers and authorities,' are the powers and positions that were needed by Christ to run his Church, and were created by him for that purpose. This aids in identifying the PROPER context of the phrase 'all things.' A reference to all things required for the wellbeing of the Church

Remember also the larger context as to why a letter to the Colossians was written in the first place: to steer the local church back to Christ and his importance in growing the Church. He was building or creating for them power structures with the angels and people on the earth. He was everything for them and not the angels. The Colossians were turning to angel worship. They had to be set straight and to get real.

And you still conclude from all this that the Christ made the earth. You are clearly mistaken. Your attempt to tie John 1:1-3 with Col 1:16 fails completely under closer examination. It is a gross error.

One late addition....could not resist

The phrase in verse Col 1:17 that 'he is before all things' has been used to try to prove that the Christ existed before everything else. However, the word 'before' (here pro) can refer to time, place or position (i.e., superiority). This then is to show that Christ is 'before,' i.e., 'superior to' all things, just as the verse says. If someone were to insist that time is involved, then in the very next verse Christ is the 'firstborn' from the dead, and thus 'before' his Church in time as well as in position.

APAK

 

[Wrangler]

You have added 4 words that no Greek ever foresaw, especially not John. I mean, it doesn't even rate as craftiness.

I did not do this, am not a JW and it is totally irrelevant to this thread. Trinitarians wish the prologue of John proclaimed Jesus was God. It does not. In fact, the Gospel of John has more verses damning to trinitarianism than any other NT book. In 17:3, Jesus says his Father is the one true God and in 20:17. the resurrected Jesus says he is going to his God. And your response to these verses? A sad appeal to dualism.

Jesus' God is the only God.

 

[Curtis]

Correction, Jesus is not a God, but only a god. A god among many gods to whom the word of God has come.

They ;iterally think God was commending Adam and Even, when He called them as gods after their transgression.

The JW 'hope of Adam' is to live immortally in mortal bodies, with sins and forgiveness of sins forever and ever. And they get to reign with Jesus, whacking all those for idolatry for worshipping Jesus as Lord and God.

I think you’re mixing up LDS with JWs.

The Mormon god the father sits on a council of Gods. Jesus is a separate god procreated by sexual intercourse.

JWs claim Jesus is Michael the archangel who got a huge promotion to being A God, but not the almighty God.

 

[robert derrick]

I think you’re mixing up LDS with JWs.

The Mormon god the father sits on a council of Gods. Jesus is a separate god procreated by sexual intercourse.

JWs claim Jesus is Michael the archangel who got a huge promotion to being A God, but not the almighty God.

I'll take your word for it. Knowing the difference from one cult or another has never been my strong suit. But I'm working on it.

How about this: I think there is a war going on between them in correcting another.

So one says the word was a created being before creation in order to 'help' create the creation (go figure), while the other keeps it simple and just says that the Word of God has nothing to do with being Jesus Christ, and He only began as a man on earth when made by God, and never existed before creation.

Help?

(Frankly, I'd rather engage the simplicity of the latter, than to dive into the mystical Tolkien type hobgoblins of the other. Like the precious blood is really a precious ring)

 

[robert derrick]

I did not do this, am not a JW and it is totally irrelevant to this thread. Trinitarians wish the prologue of John proclaimed Jesus was God. It does not. In fact, the Gospel of John has more verses damning to trinitarianism than any other NT book. In 17:3, Jesus says his Father is the one true God and in 20:17. the resurrected Jesus says he is going to his God. And your response to these verses? A sad appeal to dualism.

Jesus' God is the only God.

Look. You've got to keep things simple and real here. If that mangled shape-shifting of John 1:1, that even a Greek would never recognize, especially not John, is an example of your doctrinal 'proof', then they are some twisted puppies indeed.

You're just not a serious person. And worse, you really think you ought be taken seriously, because you can wrestle Greek into English worse than an Olympic Pankration contender.

Jesus was the true God and eternal life from everlasting, and when in the fulness of time He came down from heaven upon the earth, the true God and Father was the only One remaining in heaven, whereby the Son on earth called the Father the only true God in heaven. And now the Son has returned to heaven, from whence He came with the name of Jesus above every name of God ever named, including that of Jehovah.

It is the blood of the Lamb that saves and redeems, not the blood of the Father, and so the Father does not do the work of salvation and redemption of mankind, and is therefore not Saviour and Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. The Son Jesus and Lamb of God does and is.

And one day he will return upon the earth, but with all power and might to reign as LORD of LORDs and KING of KINGS.

You don't have to agree with that to understand it. I understand perfectly what you say, such things that will never ever go beyond your own carnal nose, and I don't agree with it, because you have departed from any Scriptural understanding of the mature part, when you refused any Spiritual beginning with part in the blood of the Lamb.

Y9ou do not drink His blood truly in the Spirit, so you have not the Spirit of truth, so you have no true eternal life in you. That's your choice. I make another better than that with a better way than carnal ignorance:

I drink the blood of the Son as I worship Him in Spirit and in truth, and so have the Life of His Son in the inner man of my heart, and I await in faith for the resurrection or changing of my mortal body into immortality.

You wait for what? There is no resurrection without His death, and there is no death without His shedding of blood, and there is no life without drinking His blood. You say it is all symbolic, then you wait on a symbolic resurrection, even as you 'plead' your symbolic forgiveness of sins, in the name of a symbolic LORD 'Jehovah', whom you know not, because you know not Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

Look. You've got to keep things simple and real here. If that mangled shape-shifting of John 1:1, that even a Greek would never recognize, especially not John, is an example of your doctrinal 'proof', then they are some twisted puppies indeed.

John 1:1 does not even have Jesus in it. You are desperately creating a Strawman to knock it down. John 1:1 is about God and his word, not Jesus.

The climax of John's prologue is John 1:18 (Voice) God, unseen until now, is revealed in the Voice, God’s only Son, straight from the Father’s heart. A simple and real grasp of this sentence is that Jesus is not God because God, in his unitarian nature, was revealed in the VOICE of God's Son.