The Ones Who Are Left…

[Naomi25]

The parable of the tares of the field was given by Lord Jesus Himself, not by Apostle Paul.

What Apostle Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4 is NOT a parable.

Okay. Where did I state that the parable of the weeds was given by Paul and not Jesus? I doubt very much I would have, because I know very well who gave it.
Also, I’m very well aware that 1 Thess 4 is NOT a parable. So again, I would not have claimed it was.
So…?

.
Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 was REPEATING what Lord Jesus said in His Olivet discourse about the gathering of the Church (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).

In Matthew 24 it's about the gathering of the 'asleep' saints Paul talking about.

In the Mark 13 version it's about the saints still alive on earth at Christ's coming being gathered to Him.

So there's the Truth about what the false Pre-trib Rapture preachers preach, they ignore Christ's Olivet discourse teaching about His gathering the Church, while they wrongly think Apostle Paul is the only one who revealed about the gathering of the Church.

So…let me try and follow you here. 1 Thess 4 is just repeating Matt 24 (Olivet discourse), about the gathering of the ‘asleep saints’.
But…the corresponding ‘olivet discourse’ passage in Mark 13 is speaking about the saints who are still alive, rather than those who are asleep?

Except…doesn’t 1 Thess 4 also speak of those who are alive also? Rather than just those asleep?
Also…please explain to me HOW on earth anyone could read these two passages and see in one a gathering of alive and then a gathering of dead in the other. They are almost identical.

Matthew 24:29-31
[29] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [30] Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27
[24] “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, [25] and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [26] And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. [27] And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

No reference in either of them about ‘dead in Christ’ or ‘alive in Christ’…just ‘gather his elect’. So…yes, it teaches a gathering. And yes, I’d say we can see Paul pointing to it…but Paul’s reference to both the dead and alive is specific, whereas the OD is not.

 

[Naomi25]

Hey @Naomi25 , lovely to see you again... Been too long. Hope all is well.
I have posted previously similar thoughts to your own, and I didn't read past the first page assuming it would go in the same direction as others on this topic... Basically because very few were actually 'listening' to you as you wrote.
I'd like to go back to your OP, back to the original parable. Jesus was using nature, again, as the basis for His lesson. He's talking about farming... Agriculture. Or horticulture, whatever way you want to look at it. He's talking about plants, some good, some bad. The servants wanted to root up the bad ones. The master said no. Why? Because the bad ones looked like good ones. There were too many similarities to do it economically because it wasn't a task you could do in a hurry. It took time to discern between leaves of one and the other, and by the time they discovered the difference, the roots were entwined and couldn't be separated. And as you no doubt know, it wasn't the plants the farmer was wanting. It was fruit. So he's saying, wait till the fruit is mature, them we can do what we like with bad plants. Root them up, that won't damage the fruit.
Now apply that to the church. We all know there are good and bad people in the church. Outside of the body, there's no good, so there's no problem in discernment there... It's only in the church where care of needed. That's why judgement begins in the house of God. This exercise of harvest relating to the parable is only in relation to the church inasmuch as discernment by the harvesters is concerned. The angels are the harvesters. The judgment has already been made by the time the harvest is come. Anything not bearing fruit (like the fig tree that had only leaves) is cursed, and cut down, bundled up and is reserved for the fire. We are witnesses to this event. Some may say we aren't here on account we don't suffer wrath... Well we won't. The angels aren't going to cut down those bearing fruit. We will bear witness to the justice and righteous judgement of God.
Farmer allows crop to grow to maturity.
Before the harvest judgement is made as to whether fruit is ripe and ready.
Decision is made to harvest.
Useless trees uprooted.
Fruitful trees harvested and taken to the Farmer's barn. Including all those trees from ages past that died bearing fruit.
It's simple agriculture really. We make it to complicated.

Hi! Thanks :)
That’s certainly an interesting thought, and you could be right. Well, no, you ARE right, in reality…that’s how it is. But in regards to what the parable means?
I think my hesitation to agree with you is that…Christ doesn’t specify that ‘the field’ is ‘the house of God’. He calls it ‘the world’. Now, granted the Church is within the world, so that may encompass it. But, it seems to me that Christ’s gaze is a little wider than just the Church. And yes, we must take into account other passages where the teaching does indeed tell us that judgment will start in the house of the Lord..and in that way, indeed, the wicked and false will be taken out of ‘the church’ at the end of the age. But…I suppose at this stage I don’t see any justification in the text itself to warrant collapsing ‘the world’ to ONLY ‘the church’.

 

[Naomi25]

Are angels involved every time a soul leaves this body? Is this an ongoing event?


Is the parable about a specific event at the end of the age/world, or is it just the ongoing phenomenon called death. Each second do the lost die first and then the believers? How specific are we getting to determine if this is an ongoing event or a specific end of the age event?

Well…since the parable outright tells us that the event occurs “at the end of the age”…I would suggest that it happens at the end of the age.

 

[Oseas]

A little time before Christ's return, ... Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time -Matthew 24:v.14 to 25- : and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

11 - And from the time that the...the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. - 1.290 days - 2nd half of the week 70th Dan.9:v.27

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. -magnificent, glorious, portentous, wonderful, marvelous, admirable DAY 1.335-

P.S.
Isaiah 26:v.19-21
19 ... the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Both Daniel 12:1-3 and John 5:28-29 refer to the GWT Judgment after the Millennium.
That truth is obvious from their prophecy of all the dead being raised and the Book of Life being opened.
Revelation 20:11-15

Thinking they happen when Jesus Returns, is error and a wrong belief.

Keraz, what is that? You MUST review your interpretation to preach Truth instead to preach misleading. Have you never read 1 Thess. 4:v.15-17? Paul Apostle refers to the resurrection preached propheticaly by Daniel 12:v.1-3 that will occur before Christ's coming exactly with the voice of the archangel -archangel MICHAEL, understand?- with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST. This wonderful event will occur now with the sound of the trumpet sounded by Michael. HOW COULD YOU SAY WILL BE IT IN THE END OF THE MILLENNIUM? YOU ARE WRONG. It will occur now in the beginning of the millennium, not in the END.

1 Thes.4:v.11 to 17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not PREVENT them which are asleep. (and go to resurrect now)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel - MICHAEL-, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (FIRST SOUNDS THE TRUMPET, the message/voice of Michael archangel, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then the Lord himself shall descend from heaven)

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...to meet the Lord...and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (Only the words of Truth will be confirmed, and only they may comfort one another).

Keraz, If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? Be careful.

When The Trumpet Of The Lord Shall Sound - YouTube

 

[Timtofly]

Well…since the parable outright tells us that the event occurs “at the end of the age”…I would suggest that it happens at the end of the age.

I agree, and the angels will be walking around actually removing souls from the living. There will be no spiritual blindness. Humans will actually see it happening. This is not fiction or a movie. This is the time of GT.

 

[Naomi25]

I agree, and the angels will be walking around actually removing souls from the living. There will be no spiritual blindness. Humans will actually see it happening. This is not fiction or a movie. This is the time of GT.

Do you believe they will be ‘separating’ body and soul? I more had this in mind:

Matthew 10:28
[28] And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I rather think that the ‘end of the age’ reaping ‘into the fire’ will be when the wicked will go to hell. That is not just a soul punishment, that is a body and soul punishment.

 

[n2thelight]

Again, it was not a particular comment on the timing of the Rapture, or where the dead in Christ are. Because, yes, I do believe the bible teaches a Rapture…a catching up of his own to meet him. And yes, I do believe the dead in Christ are with him now, and will precede us in receiving our resurrection bodies.
This was more a thought on the order of ‘leaving’ between the living believers and living unbelievers at Christ’s return, as per the parable of the weeds.

It's no difference as it's not just the dead in Christ ,at death ALL return to the Father at the return of Christ , at the 7th trump 7th vial and 7th seal (by the way satan comes at 666 ) back on subject ,we will not receive a resurrected body as we already have two bodies

The weeds won't be destroyed until after the millennium ,and then only if they follow satan again .The weeds have a mortal soul that's why they are called the dead but they will have a chance to change that status during that day when they will be taught the true Word of God

 

[Davy]

Okay. Where did I state that the parable of the weeds was given by Paul and not Jesus? I doubt very much I would have, because I know very well who gave it.
Also, I’m very well aware that 1 Thess 4 is NOT a parable. So again, I would not have claimed it was.
So…?

Go over what you wrote in your OP. The way you wrote it suggests you were implying 1 Thess.4 by Paul was a parable. You mixed that Scripture and the parable of the tares Scripture in such a way as to confuse them.

So…let me try and follow you here. 1 Thess 4 is just repeating Matt 24 (Olivet discourse), about the gathering of the ‘asleep saints’.
But…the corresponding ‘olivet discourse’ passage in Mark 13 is speaking about the saints who are still alive, rather than those who are asleep?

Except…doesn’t 1 Thess 4 also speak of those who are alive also? Rather than just those asleep?
Also…please explain to me HOW on earth anyone could read these two passages and see in one a gathering of alive and then a gathering of dead in the other. They are almost identical.

I covered the Mark 13:27 passage which points to the 'alive' saints on earth being gathered...

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

1. Matthew 24:31 -- about the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him from heaven.
2. Mark 13:27 -- about the 'alive' saints still alive on earth gathered to Jesus and the asleep saints.

That... is exactly what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church.

Matt 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

If you cannot see how those two underlined phrases are different, then maybe you need to get your eyes checked.

The difference between those two gathering examples aligns perfectly with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's gathering of the Church. When He comes, He brings the 'asleep' saints with Him like Paul said, and Matthew 24:31 covers that event with the saints gathered FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. And the still alive saints on earth are gathered FROM THE UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH per the Mark 13:27 example. And this was revealed by Lord Jesus while Apostle Paul was still working for the Pharisees!

 

[Davy]

So…let me try and follow you here. 1 Thess 4 is just repeating Matt 24 (Olivet discourse), about the gathering of the ‘asleep saints’.
But…the corresponding ‘olivet discourse’ passage in Mark 13 is speaking about the saints who are still alive, rather than those who are asleep?

Except…doesn’t 1 Thess 4 also speak of those who are alive also? Rather than just those asleep?
Also…please explain to me HOW on earth anyone could read these two passages and see in one a gathering of alive and then a gathering of dead in the other. They are almost identical.

Matthew 24:29-31
[29] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [30] Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27
[24] “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, [25] and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [26] And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. [27] And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

No reference in either of them about ‘dead in Christ’ or ‘alive in Christ’…just ‘gather his elect’. So…yes, it teaches a gathering. And yes, I’d say we can see Paul pointing to it…but Paul’s reference to both the dead and alive is specific, whereas the OD is not.

Which post of mine were you quoting in the above, because I can't seem to find it?

 

[Waiting on him]

atthew 24:29-31
[29] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [30] Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27
[24] “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, [25] and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [26] And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. [27] And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

No reference in either of them about ‘dead in Christ’ or ‘alive in Christ’…just ‘gather his elect’. So…yes, it teaches a gathering. And yes, I’d say we can see Paul pointing to it…but Paul’s reference to both the dead and alive is specific, whereas the OD is not.

Isreal of that age are the sun the moon and the stars.


Genesis 37:9 KJV
[9] And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you believe they will be ‘separating’ body and soul? I more had this in mind:

Matthew 10:28
[28] And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I rather think that the ‘end of the age’ reaping ‘into the fire’ will be when the wicked will go to hell. That is not just a soul punishment, that is a body and soul punishment.

How many people do you know pass away this way:

"But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord. And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also."

At the 5th Trumpet we see:

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

You may have a point. The angels could be tossing bodies into the pit, not just removing the souls. But the wheat, those souls have to shed this corruptible body, for an incorruptible body. The soul will have to be harvested. The "barn" is just a holding area, until after Armageddon. Since angels are not bound by the physical, I think an angel is just used to transfer the soul through time itself until after Armageddon. No waiting at all.

 

[Davy]

How many people do you know pass away this way:

"But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord. And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also."

At the 5th Trumpet we see:

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

You may have a point. The angels could be tossing bodies into the pit, not just removing the souls. But the wheat, those souls have to shed this corruptible body, for an incorruptible body. The soul will have to be harvested. The "barn" is just a holding area, until after Armageddon. Since angels are not bound by the physical, I think an angel is just used to transfer the soul through time itself until after Armageddon. No waiting at all.

You're both wrong, and show you haven't really studied the Scriptures, like 1 Corinthians 15 and John 5:28-29 about the resurrection.

The 'it' part that is sown in corruption, but raised in incorruption, per 1 Corinthians 15, is about our soul, our person. It is sown into a flesh body of corruption for this world, but at the resurrection is raised in a "spiritual body". The soul is not... the body. And the soul needs a body in order to exist, whether here on earth, or in the heavenly.

Just the fact that there will be a "resurrection of damnation" per Lord Jesus in John 5:28-29, and that happens on the day of His return, that shows the idea of resurrection means simply putting on a body of incorruption. That applies to all, the "resurrection of damnation" also. BUT... those unsaved are still subject to the "second death", which is the later casting into the "lake of fire", perishing. In other words, their souls will still be 'mortal' and liable to die. Those in Christ Jesus will not be.

So the wicked will still... be with us after Christ's return, even in resurrected bodies. That is who Christ's "rod of iron" is for after His return. The reality for that world to come is that everyone... is going to be in a spiritual body, for that future time will no longer be about man in a flesh body.

 

[Timtofly]

You're both wrong, and show you haven't really studied the Scriptures, like 1 Corinthians 15 and John 5:28-29 about the resurrection.

The 'it' part that is sown in corruption, but raised in incorruption, per 1 Corinthians 15, is about our soul, our person. It is sown into a flesh body of corruption for this world, but at the resurrection is raised in a "spiritual body". The soul is not... the body. And the soul needs a body in order to exist, whether here on earth, or in the heavenly.

Just the fact that there will be a "resurrection of damnation" per Lord Jesus in John 5:28-29, and that happens on the day of His return, that shows the idea of resurrection means simply putting on a body of incorruption. That applies to all, the "resurrection of damnation" also. BUT... those unsaved are still subject to the "second death", which is the later casting into the "lake of fire", perishing. In other words, their souls will still be 'mortal' and liable to die. Those in Christ Jesus will not be.

So the wicked will still... be with us after Christ's return, even in resurrected bodies. That is who Christ's "rod of iron" is for after His return. The reality for that world to come is that everyone... is going to be in a spiritual body, for that future time will no longer be about man in a flesh body.

How do you then explain this:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

Are these dead not living again, but still walking around on the earth while not alive?

John 5:28-29 is the most misinterpreted eschatology wise reference in the book of John. Jesus did mean what He said. What He said is more than what many think He actually meant.

Amil refuse to see any other resurrections, but dismiss other plain Scriptures out of hand, and declare only one singular resurrection, at one singular hour.

Jesus already said in verse 25:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life. That is not just some future last hour "thing".

Many want to claim Jesus is only spiritual now and physical later. Sorry but Jesus was the whole deal from birth.

The soul cannot die or be called mortal. The soul is wrapped up in the body, which will be wrapped up in the spirit, a robe of white. The spirit is eternal. The soul is eternal. As for the physical body, is there one currently in sheol is the point. No one can claim a resounding "no". Obviously it is not this corruptible flesh body that humans cremate or bury in the ground. Even Jesus declared that it goes back to the dust. No one gets to keep the same body, and not even Lazarus when he came out 4 days later. When Jesus calls one out of the grave it is eternal not temporary. It is also ongoing and physical, not some future single last hour event. There is still that event at the GWT, after heaven and earth flee away. But John only declared the dead were there. John does not mention the living. I accept John wrote both John and Revelation. He knows what Christ meant and was not confused, and did not explain everything either. One can only go with what is written, and cannot just jump to conclusions with one single verse.

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

I’ve read through all three post and wanted to respond to a few quotes. But first, most of what you said I don’t disagree with. I’m not arguing that it wasn’t to the Jew first as in
Romans 2:9-11 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; [10] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: [11] For there is no respect of persons with God.

But even in the above I can learn from what is there that tribulation and anguish to every soul that follows after the flesh
But glory, honour and peace to every man that works good …in coming to the Light that his deeds may be made manifest they are wrought in God. Knowing their deeds are evil, they hate the light and won’t come to it(Him)? For the Spirit of God is glory, honour and peace. What I see there is the old man which is dead and crucified (tribulation and anguish) and the New man which is glory, honour, and peace (rest) in Christ. which is every in, no one exempt in ‘if one died for all, then were all dead’ For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: [15] And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. [16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. [17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [18] And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” 2 Corinthians 5:14-19

As when Jesus Christ stood up in the last day
John 7:37-39 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. [38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. [39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

what I hear is “if any thirst, let him (forbid them not to) come to me, and drink” …to every and all: to the Jew first? Then also to the gentiles? For there is no respect of persons with God.

see, I’m not arguing it wasn’t to the Jew first but I also read where God said in thy seed all the nations will be blessed. What I question and honestly buck against (maybe wrong in doing so) is that it is a sin to put yourself anywhere in the gospels as if God is talking to you, because you are not an outward Jew. Or that it is vain to put yourself in any of the conversation which was obviously to the Jews. And how it isn’t anything but confusion. But I also read where God says He will make two One; and He will give them One voice, One “pure language”, One Mind (the Mind of Christ), One heart, One body as Jesus Christ prayed let them be One as we are One ..so yes I do question why rightly dividing the word becomes to undo “where there is neither Greek nor Jew, neither male nor female” where neither circumcision or uncircumcised avails but a New Creature in One mind, one heart, one voice, One body the middle wall removed whereby He made two One in Christ. I don’t understand why it is a sin or vain to think God possibly could be meaning me also; who is no outward Jew in “If any thirst, let him come to me, and drink”

I’m trying to clarify I read the same verses as you where Jesus Christ spoke of not giving the children’s bread to dogs, but how else “in thy seed all nations of the earth will be blessed” and the woman ate of the crumbs that fell from “the Master”s table. . You mentioned: being lead by the Spirit is different than being filled by the Spirit. When Jesus Christ stood and said if any thirst, let him come, and drink? To me the topic is let Him who thirst, come and drink …and be filled. Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

For they shall be filled. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness…for they shall be Filled with the Spirit of God.
Again, from the gospels (could be wrong) but is this not speaking of being filled with the Spirit of God.

I'll start with the need to read more than the Romans 2:9-11 to the context of where those verses are leading - Romans 2:5-15

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (KJV)

Verse 11 makes it clear. God (Jesus) will judge all peoples, Jews AND Gentiles, no exception! Israel was under the law, all 613 laws from God through Moses. Even today, all Jews are subject to those laws and follow them as best as practical in this day and age (they don't stone someone to death, for example). Paul writes in verse 12 that those that are under the law (I presume Gentiles that have converted to Judiasm are included under the law) will be judged by the law. This is shown in Matthew 25 end time separation of sheep and goats. Note how Paul clarified things in verse 13 above. One under the law must KEEP the law. However, the problem with the law is stated clearly in James 2:10

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (KJV)

That's a tough one! That would be like going to jail for a parking ticket!

But go on to verse 12, then 14-16 (12 & 13 should be in opposite order, in my opinion). Gentiles, which are not under the Mosaic law, are not judged by the law. We need not eat only Kosher food, for example. Verse 15 makes it clear, we have the the law (not the Mosaic law) written in our hearts and are to be judged according to 'my gospel', eg, THE Gospel, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (KJV) (underlining mine)

Thanks to Adam and Eve, we aren't born with the Gospel in our hearts. We have to believe the Gospel in our heart, not just our head. The moment we believe, we are saved. When I was saved almost 23 years ago, there were instant and permanent changes in my life, including stopping my potty mouth and putting and end of my drinking. Other changes God is making are a 'work in progress' in my life.

The biggest problem with the law is one can't be saved by keeping the law

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (KJV)

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (KJV)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (KJV)

We will all be judged one day, regardless of whether we are those that keep the law (Jews) or those that have trusted in Christs' shed blood as 'payment in full' for our sin.

 

[Keraz]

Keraz, what is that? You MUST review your interpretation to preach Truth instead to preach misleading. Have you never read 1 Thess. 4:v.15-17? Paul Apostle refers to the resurrection preached propheticaly by Daniel 12:v.1-3 that will occur before Christ's coming exactly with the voice of the archangel -archangel MICHAEL, understand?- with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST. This wonderful event will occur now with the sound of the trumpet sounded by Michael. HOW COULD YOU SAY WILL BE IT IN THE END OF THE MILLENNIUM? YOU ARE WRONG. It will occur now in the beginning of the millennium, not in the END.

There will be a trumpet call when Jesus Returns, but it isn't the final one, the Last Trump; to call all the dead to stand before God in Judgment. AFTER the Millennium.

When Jesus Returns, He will send out His angels to gather His people from wherever they are on earth. Matthew 24:30-31. The same as Paul says in 1 Thess 4:17.
A gathering, as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:30 and Ezekiel 3:12
Daniel 12:1-3 is a prophecy of the Great Tribulation, the Return and 1000 year reign and then Eternity.

Paul does NOT say 'all' the dead will be raised at Jesus Return. 1 Corinthians 15:23
So I suggest that you be more careful in saying I am wrong.

 

[Keraz]

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

1. Matthew 24:31 -- about the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him from heaven.
2. Mark 13:27 -- about the 'alive' saints still alive on earth gathered to Jesus and the asleep saints.

That... is exactly what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church.

Matt 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

If you cannot see how those two underlined phrases are different, then maybe you need to get your eyes checked.

You need a Bible version check, I have looked at many translations and it is clear that both Matthew and Mark are describing the same thing. The Lord's angels going out to gather His faithful people from wherever they are; to where He is.
I see that most of them will be those faithful Christians who were kept in a place of safety on earth, during the 1260 days of Satans world control. Revelation 12:14

 

[Davy]

How do you then explain this:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

Are these dead not living again, but still walking around on the earth while not alive?

You'll never understand that, because your mind is too wrapped up in your flesh and this world.

The "dead" of Revelation 20:5 are the same "dead" that stand before God's Throne at the GWT Judgment...

Rev 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
KJV

Why are they still called "the dead" if they are standing... before God, as written there??? Hmm....?

Before you believed on Jesus Christ as your Saviour, what kind of condition was your 'soul' in?

Why did Jesus say the scribes and Pharisees were like whited tombs which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of 'dead' men's bones?

Why did Jesus tell the one whose relative died, that he wanted to bury before following Jesus, to let the 'dead' bury the dead?

 

[Keraz]

Just the fact that there will be a "resurrection of damnation" per Lord Jesus in John 5:28-29, and that happens on the day of His return,

No; the raising of all the dead does not happen at Jesus Return.
We are plainly told when: After the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
Daniel 12:2-3, Matthew 25:46 and John 5:28-29 all refer to the GWT Judgment.

 

[Davy]

John 5:28-29 is the most misinterpreted eschatology wise reference in the book of John. Jesus did mean what He said. What He said is more than what many think He actually meant.

What Lord Jesus said in John 5:28-29 flows perfectly with the rest of His Word. If you think it's a difficult passage to understand, then that actually points to your following men's doctrines, and not God's Word on the matter. In other places in God's Holy Writ we are shown about those who have died, and given what is going to happen after death in the flesh, and also in Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20. Apostle Paul even went into detail about that future time, and even the body 'type' the resurrection is. So there's really no excuse to not understand it for the Bible student that actually heeds God in His Word, and disciplines theirself in it.

John 5:24-29
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;
27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.

That above, when did that happen? It happened when Jesus died on the cross. The graves were opened and many bodies of the saints arose and came out of their graves and appeared to many in Jerusalem (Matthew 27:50-53). In 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:5-6, we are shown about Jesus after The Father raised Him from the dead went and preached The Gospel to the "spirits in prison" who were disobedient back to the time of Noah. That was actually a prophecy in Isaiah 42:7 that He would do that. That is what the above Scripture in John 5 is about.

But the next verses are about the day of Christ's future 2nd coming...


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

That above Scripture is for the day of His coming on the 7th trumpet, which is when He gathers His Church from both heaven and those of His still alive on earth.

Notice that BOTH types of resurrection will happen on that day.

So who is correct, what Lord Jesus said there, or what men say?

I choose to believe what Lord Jesus said there, and not men's doctrines. And that has absolutely nothing to with men's Amill ideas.

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

I’ve read through all three post and wanted to respond to a few quotes. But first, most of what you said I don’t disagree with. I’m not arguing that it wasn’t to the Jew first as in
Romans 2:9-11 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; [10] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: [11] For there is no respect of persons with God.

But even in the above I can learn from what is there that tribulation and anguish to every soul that follows after the flesh
But glory, honour and peace to every man that works good …in coming to the Light that his deeds may be made manifest they are wrought in God. Knowing their deeds are evil, they hate the light and won’t come to it(Him)? For the Spirit of God is glory, honour and peace. What I see there is the old man which is dead and crucified (tribulation and anguish) and the New man which is glory, honour, and peace (rest) in Christ. which is every in, no one exempt in ‘if one died for all, then were all dead’ For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: [15] And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. [16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. [17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [18] And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” 2 Corinthians 5:14-19

As when Jesus Christ stood up in the last day
John 7:37-39 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. [38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. [39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

what I hear is “if any thirst, let him (forbid them not to) come to me, and drink” …to every and all: to the Jew first? Then also to the gentiles? For there is no respect of persons with God.

see, I’m not arguing it wasn’t to the Jew first but I also read where God said in thy seed all the nations will be blessed. What I question and honestly buck against (maybe wrong in doing so) is that it is a sin to put yourself anywhere in the gospels as if God is talking to you, because you are not an outward Jew. Or that it is vain to put yourself in any of the conversation which was obviously to the Jews. And how it isn’t anything but confusion. But I also read where God says He will make two One; and He will give them One voice, One “pure language”, One Mind (the Mind of Christ), One heart, One body as Jesus Christ prayed let them be One as we are One ..so yes I do question why rightly dividing the word becomes to undo “where there is neither Greek nor Jew, neither male nor female” where neither circumcision or uncircumcised avails but a New Creature in One mind, one heart, one voice, One body the middle wall removed whereby He made two One in Christ. I don’t understand why it is a sin or vain to think God possibly could be meaning me also; who is no outward Jew in “If any thirst, let him come to me, and drink”

I’m trying to clarify I read the same verses as you where Jesus Christ spoke of not giving the children’s bread to dogs, but how else “in thy seed all nations of the earth will be blessed” and the woman ate of the crumbs that fell from “the Master”s table. . You mentioned: being lead by the Spirit is different than being filled by the Spirit. When Jesus Christ stood and said if any thirst, let him come, and drink? To me the topic is let Him who thirst, come and drink …and be filled. Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

For they shall be filled. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness…for they shall be Filled with the Spirit of God.
Again, from the gospels (could be wrong) but is this not speaking of being filled with the Spirit of God.

Regarding 'thirst', 'drink' and 'water' in your post, putting them all together in my mind I immediately think of the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4:7-15 -

Joh 4:7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
Joh 4:8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
Joh 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Joh 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. (KJV)

Clearly, Jesus wasn't talking about 'regular' water. Nor was he talking about His blood, as he was and is still very much alive. What He was talking about is faith in HIM! He is the living Word. Gods' Word. The Bible. Take a look at John 1:1-4 and 14 -

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (KJV)

John 1:1-4 jumps all the way back to Genesis 1. Here's Genesis 1:1 for brevity -

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (KJV)

Of note is that God, as used in Genesis 1:1, is a plural form in the original Hebrew, not singular (according to Strongs' Concordance). Which 'person' of the triune God (Father, Son, or Holy Spirit) did the creating? The answer is Jesus!

Now tie it all together in Ephesians 5:25-28 -

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself (KJV) (underlining is mine)

Although the verses above from Ephesians is part of Pauls' writing about husbands and wives, it shows how Christ loves the church (we believers) should be applied to marriages.