The Ones Who Are Left…

[Naomi25]

“But…I’m not certain I would connect these verses or parables/teachings simply because of certain phrases (like field) used.”

honestly I’m disappointed (not in you but myself) that “field” became the focus because that wasn’t my intention. I wasn’t trying to simply connect parables because of ‘in the field’ but only noticed it after what really caught my attention … ‘whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.’ Which to me seems an odd way to lead in to ‘one shall be taken and the other left’ don’t you think?

Please don’t be disappointed in yourself. You know I often struggle to follow your train of thought, which is, quite frankly, more my inability to see what you’re trying to say. I’m sorry if I focused on the wrong thing.

You’re right…it does seem to be an odd progression in those verses. But…I think, perhaps, one might lead to the other…?


Luke 17:26-37
[26] Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. [27] They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. [28] Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, [29] but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—[30] so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. [31] On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. [32] Remember Lot’s wife. [33] Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it. [34] I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. [35] There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.” [37] And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”

I think (and this is just my take on the passage) that we might look on the descriptions of the people in Noah’s and Lots day as people who were attempting to grasp life to the fullest. What more was there? Eating! Drinking! Marrying! Buying and selling, planting and building…building prosperity! Lot’s wife found it hard to leave this sort of indulgence and self satisfaction behind…and thus, judgment came upon her.
As Christians, we live a contrary life to unbelievers. Our Lord was a servant, he washed feet. We are told not to love our lives unto death, and if we loose our lives to Christ, we will indeed be saved….life eternal will be ours.
Here, we see people grasping for live with all they have…and they did not keep it…judgment came upon them.
And IF…if we live a life not to self, but to Christ, when those are taken for judgment (whether you believe this passage believes those taken are taken in judgment or those taken are taken in the Rapture), then we might expect to ‘be left’ (or taken…whatever your reading).

 

[VictoryinJesus]

We need the context of the specific passage. So, in Luke 17:36, I’d suggest it simply means two men were working in the field when the event happened. If it was specifically referring to ‘the world’, as the parable of the weeds, why specify the two verses before it? Where they not also “in the field”? No, they were respectively in bed and grinding at the wheel. This parable is about people going about normal everyday tasks when something unexpected befell them (judgment). That is the purpose for THIS parable.

just a thought. I was thinking more about this going to bed last night. You said somewhere (I think but I can’t find it) why grinding at the wheel, why in the bed, and if in the field is in the world …then isn’t the wheel and bed in the world also? Luke 8:16-18 comes to mind. When do we decide it is literal…two men in a bed, two women at the wheel, and two men in a field simply going about their regular? Or something else “no man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. [17] For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. [18] Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

”The tares are the (drunk) ideas of the spirit of deception” maybe

Do get what you are saying I think. Drunk Makes me think of staggering or stumbling around disoriented intoxicated and of 1 Corinthians 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

Ezekiel 39:17-20 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God ; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. [18] Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. [19] And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. [20] Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.

Odd is “behold, the hand that betrays me is with me on the table.” With mine on the table…what table? Luke 22:20-22 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. [21] But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. [22] And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Like Revelation, it does not speak of a Rapture, or an instant departure of the wicked, swept away by angels to their doom.

only sharing thoughts to consider. Like you not saying it is right but I can’t stop thinking about what you said to Davy “or an instant departure of the wicked, swept away by angels to their doom.” Consider those words “swept away by angels of doom” we maybe think angelic beings with wings instead of “false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.” In 2 Corinthians 11:12-15 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. [13] For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. [15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

consider also Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

With all the warnings to not get caught up, carried away, drowning in destruction. More plainly put could it be the flood cast out from the serpents mouths are false Christ, false prophets, and their teachings warned of, those things which they speak to take men away with them. Matthew 24:24-28 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Okay, here’s a thought. And I preface it with the warning that it IS just a thought, I’m not trying to claim it’s true or inspired by God, and I’m not hoping to stir a great deal of angst among folks who think I’m nuts…I could be, I’m just noodling through something…but I thought it was an interesting thought, and one that sort of hit me as I was reading my bible, so…

Matt 13 gives us the parable of the weeds, and the explanation of it:


Matthew 13:24-30
The Parable of the Weeds
[24] He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, [25] but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. [26] So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. [27] And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ [28] He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ [29] But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 13:37-43
[37] He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. [38] The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, [39] and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. [40] Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. [41] The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

While I acknowledge that this will be argued against by Dispensationalists, who would claim a two stage ‘return’ of Christ…which would put, in their mind, this ‘end of the age’ event at his last coming, I argue it doesn’t actually give us permission to insert or assume that. And yes, we could go elsewhere and continue the argument, but that is not my current goal. Here, in the text, we are told rather clearly that BOTH people groups are being allowed to ‘grow’ until the end of the age. At which point, the angels are sent out to gather…to reap the law-breakers and sinners, and throw them into the furnace. It’s then that the ‘righteous’ will inherit the Kingdom of their Father.
My interest, in specific, was caught when I was reading this passage:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.
It could, even understanding what is happening, be quite a daunting prospect.
Of course, it all could happen within seconds of one another, who truly knows.
But, like I said, it was interesting to me.

Well I am a dyed in teh wool unabashed unapologetic dispensationalist and in the Matthew Passages I do not see two returns.

Jesus returns to earth but once.

The rapture is not part of HIs return as He only descends to at closest, the atmosphere.

The two Matthew Passages as wqell as the Matthew 25 seperating of teh sheep and goats, refcer to entrance in to the millenial kingdom on earth.

The unrighteous will go to teh placeof torments awaiting the lake of fire 1,000+ years later and the rightoues gathered on the earth will be welcomed in to teh millenial kingdom.

The end of the age and th estart of etnity is not pictureds in any of these parables.

 

[GTW27]

Okay, here’s a thought. And I preface it with the warning that it IS just a thought, I’m not trying to claim it’s true or inspired by God, and I’m not hoping to stir a great deal of angst among folks who think I’m nuts…I could be, I’m just noodling through something…but I thought it was an interesting thought, and one that sort of hit me as I was reading my bible, so…

Matt 13 gives us the parable of the weeds, and the explanation of it:


Matthew 13:24-30
The Parable of the Weeds
[24] He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, [25] but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. [26] So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. [27] And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ [28] He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ [29] But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 13:37-43
[37] He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. [38] The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, [39] and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. [40] Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. [41] The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

While I acknowledge that this will be argued against by Dispensationalists, who would claim a two stage ‘return’ of Christ…which would put, in their mind, this ‘end of the age’ event at his last coming, I argue it doesn’t actually give us permission to insert or assume that. And yes, we could go elsewhere and continue the argument, but that is not my current goal. Here, in the text, we are told rather clearly that BOTH people groups are being allowed to ‘grow’ until the end of the age. At which point, the angels are sent out to gather…to reap the law-breakers and sinners, and throw them into the furnace. It’s then that the ‘righteous’ will inherit the Kingdom of their Father.
My interest, in specific, was caught when I was reading this passage:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.
It could, even understanding what is happening, be quite a daunting prospect.
Of course, it all could happen within seconds of one another, who truly knows.
But, like I said, it was interesting to me.

Blessings in Christ Jesus! For the sake of understanding. " WHO ARE LEFT", "Those who endure to the end"

 

[Timtofly]

Okay, here’s a thought. And I preface it with the warning that it IS just a thought, I’m not trying to claim it’s true or inspired by God, and I’m not hoping to stir a great deal of angst among folks who think I’m nuts…I could be, I’m just noodling through something…but I thought it was an interesting thought, and one that sort of hit me as I was reading my bible, so…

Matt 13 gives us the parable of the weeds, and the explanation of it:


Matthew 13:24-30
The Parable of the Weeds
[24] He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, [25] but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. [26] So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. [27] And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ [28] He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ [29] But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 13:37-43
[37] He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. [38] The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, [39] and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. [40] Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. [41] The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

While I acknowledge that this will be argued against by Dispensationalists, who would claim a two stage ‘return’ of Christ…which would put, in their mind, this ‘end of the age’ event at his last coming, I argue it doesn’t actually give us permission to insert or assume that. And yes, we could go elsewhere and continue the argument, but that is not my current goal. Here, in the text, we are told rather clearly that BOTH people groups are being allowed to ‘grow’ until the end of the age. At which point, the angels are sent out to gather…to reap the law-breakers and sinners, and throw them into the furnace. It’s then that the ‘righteous’ will inherit the Kingdom of their Father.
My interest, in specific, was caught when I was reading this passage:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.
It could, even understanding what is happening, be quite a daunting prospect.
Of course, it all could happen within seconds of one another, who truly knows.
But, like I said, it was interesting to me.

This sowing of the seed is done by Christ Himself. Not from heaven, but literally Christ is on the earth when it happens.

"He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man."

This sowing and harvest is after the Second Coming. The church is already gone before this event, so has nothing to do with the church at all. Why has the church failed to teach this aspect of the Second Coming? Quite simple, as the church does not need to worry about post Second Coming events. The application now is that some will not be part of the church, because of the great falling away. The church itself left many souls behind to be harvested by Christ Himself. Yes, the church should worry about being obedient in their current task, but the church cannot force a false harvest. The problem is that the church itself gets bogged down in earthly affairs, and the Gospel is hid, even in the church.

That Jesus Christ will be on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders seems to be a foreign concept to most church members today. Yet that is exactly what Jesus taught to those in the first century. Christ being present on earth is the main reason preterist are wrong. It simply has not happened yet. But those who use this argument fail to see that the Second Coming does happen before the Trumpets and Thunders. The rapture and the Second Coming is the same event and will not be separate events. The tares are not taken first, at the Second Coming, because that harvest only applies to the seed sown after Christ is already on the earth.

That is why a post Second Coming will not work either. Christ will be on earth during these events, because Christ taught that. Stating we know when Christ is physically on the earth goes against the truth that we cannot know. However that Christ is on the earth is not part of not knowing. The hour Christ comes is the part of not knowing. All will know when Christ comes, and it will be a physical Coming, and it will last more than a few days. It will be long enough for Christ to plant the seeds of His own harvest, and also reap that harvest. It is at the end of the world, and it involves angels. Both key points indicating a future event. This harvest cannot happen until Christ and the angels are on the earth, and the whole world will know, because Christ is sowing the seed throughout the whole world.

 

[Davy]

Okay. Should I return the favour and begin our conversation by making an assumption about you and attempting to shame you? Very well done.
No, I do not believe the OT is ‘dead history’…far from it. I believe the more we dig into the OT and the culture of those who wrote it, the better equiped we will be to understand scripture itself. The bible has a dept and richness that only reading the NT through Western centred eyes misses.
Having said that, lets discuss Zach 14. Yes, it does discuss some remarkable events, does it not? One would be hard pressed to deny it speaks about Christ’s return. Like Revelation, it does not speak of a Rapture, or an instant departure of the wicked, swept away by angels to their doom.
The problem for you is this: while we cannot dismiss the OT, neither can we dismiss the NT. And there are passages in the NT that DO speak of both righteous and unrighteousness being taken in just such manners.
So, since you have such disdain for those of us who would be pleased with open discussion about such things, and since your understanding is obviously superior to ours, please, enlighten us on how these two marry with harmony.

I'm not trying to belittle or be mean. I'm trying to get my brethren in Christ into disciplined Bible study for theirselves instead of adopting the plethora of men's leaven doctrines that's out there today.

The "culture of those who wrote it"??? You mean you don't believe our Heavenly Father Himself actually wrote it? You do realize what I just said here was explained by Apostle Peter, don't you?

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJV

Our Heavenly Father is Who wrote His Word by The Holy Spirit. So studying whatever psychological influences and culture the writers experienced is just a trap door the deceivers have developed to actually get you away... from understanding what God has said through His servants the writers.

 

[Naomi25]

just a thought. I was thinking more about this going to bed last night. You said somewhere (I think but I can’t find it) why grinding at the wheel, why in the bed, and if in the field is in the world …then isn’t the wheel and bed in the world also? Luke 8:16-18 comes to mind. When do we decide it is literal…two men in a bed, two women at the wheel, and two men in a field simply going about their regular? Or something else “no man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. [17] For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. [18] Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Okay…I’ve ‘bolded’ what I think is your main point above. Or, at least what I see as your main point above, so…I suppose even if I get it wrong, you can see at least how I’m thinking? Sorry if once more I get it wrong.

I suppose when we come to any passage, or specifically, parable…we must decide if Christ is speaking about literal things or something else. That’s the tricky nature of parables…they’re very real, literal and applicable points wrapped up in figurative examples. Usually I find that it’s either pointed out or obvious when it’s NOT literal…and we must be a little cautious trying to apply too much analogy to them, lest they loose all real life meaning and value to us.

I think with Luke 8:16-18, and the specific reference to what ‘shall be taken’…well…what? What shall be taken? I’d suggest its talking about knowledge of God…understanding of God, specifically his salvific work in Christ. The passage starts referring to it…who, having such wonderful light within, hides it? Indeed…anything hidden will eventually come out anyway. But be warned! Those who HAVE this wonderful knowledge…more will be given to them! But those who don’t have it, or who have only heard it in passing and rejected it? Even that understanding will be taken from them.

So…I suppose in a way we can say in that regard both the taking away of the knowledge aligns with the fact that the unjust will ALSO be taken away. But…I’m unsure if there is any deliberate correlation between the two.

It’s funny, on a side note. I always feel when I’m talking to you that one of the reasons we seem to never connect, thought wise, is that you see these ‘big picture’ spiritual connections that might be there…and very well could. I don’t see that. Probably because of my ASD, I just hone in on the facts in front of me. I mean, I ‘get’ a lot of the big picture things, but it takes a fair bit of work to find the connections that hide between the texts, unless they’re fairly obvious.

 

[Enoch111]

While I acknowledge that this will be argued against by Dispensationalists, who would claim a two stage ‘return’ of Christ…which would put, in their mind, this ‘end of the age’ event at his last coming, I argue it doesn’t actually give us permission to insert or assume that.

No one should take a single passage in isolation (as you are trying to do) to build a doctrine. Furthermore, a parable should not become the basis for Bible doctrine. So what the Lord was teaching was AT THE END OF THE AGE the unsaved (indeed the children of the devil meaning the wicked) will be gathered before the Great White Throne (not mentioned but implied) and then cast into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20 gives us the full picture.

As to "the dead in Christ will rise first", that is simply the sequence of events. For all practically purposes, the Resurrection/Rapture is ONE SINGLE EVENT if you put the various passages together.

 

[Naomi25]

only sharing thoughts to consider. Like you not saying it is right but I can’t stop thinking about what you said to Davy “or an instant departure of the wicked, swept away by angels to their doom.” Consider those words “swept away by angels of doom” we maybe think angelic beings with wings instead of “false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.” In 2 Corinthians 11:12-15 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. [13] For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. [15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

consider also Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

With all the warnings to not get caught up, carried away, drowning in destruction. More plainly put could it be the flood cast out from the serpents mouths are false Christ, false prophets, and their teachings warned of, those things which they speak to take men away with them. Matthew 24:24-28 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I think, perhaps, it could quite likely be both. Because scripture indicates it. The notion of false Christ’s and apostles, come to deceive and lead astray people is a clear warning/teaching in scripture. One we must be aware of.
However, I think there is also passages that indicate very real, spiritual, heavenly beings. Indeed, they will likely play a larger roll in end times matters than I think we believe. As they probably do now without our knowing or understanding.Our ‘modern’, more scientific minds do not often embrace a more spiritual, supernatural understanding of scripture, which is a little absurd, considering we worship a spiritual, supernatural God. But once your eyes are opened to it, the OT…even the NT, is full of references, both cultural and biblical, to the notion that there is a lot more ‘going on behind the scenes’. For example, briefly…most people accept the bible talks about “angels”. But, what about the reference in Daniel to the “Prince of Persia”…a clearly supernatural entity that the angel Michael had to come and rescue another angel messenger from? Why was he a ‘Prince’ and not just a demon? What about the reference to ‘the watchers’, also in Daniel? They are described a ‘holy ones’, who ‘come down’. Not just a simple ‘angelic messenger’.
My point is, the spiritual world is as Paul suggests….powers, authorities, principalities. It’s deeper than we suspect, and we must not simply subscribe references to spiritual beings to human motives and doings. We worship a spiritual God and we must acknowledge that there is a spiritual battle raging in the heavens as well.

 

[Naomi25]

Well I am a dyed in teh wool unabashed unapologetic dispensationalist and in the Matthew Passages I do not see two returns.

Jesus returns to earth but once.

The rapture is not part of HIs return as He only descends to at closest, the atmosphere.

The two Matthew Passages as wqell as the Matthew 25 seperating of teh sheep and goats, refcer to entrance in to the millenial kingdom on earth.

The unrighteous will go to teh placeof torments awaiting the lake of fire 1,000+ years later and the rightoues gathered on the earth will be welcomed in to teh millenial kingdom.

The end of the age and th estart of etnity is not pictureds in any of these parables.

You needed be apologetic (even though you said you weren’t!). My Grandparents were ‘dyed in the wool dispensationalists’ and I loved them like crazy.

So, you would see the Matt 13 ‘parable of the weeds’ as, most likely, speaking of the judgment at Christ’s return (not the Rapture) then? As in, when it speaks of allowing the weeds and the wheat to grow together, its just speaking of allowing the world to continue, people to keep being born etc. That it doesn’t mention the Rapture is neither here nor there? It’s just a general reference to God’s grace in allowing the world to continue.
And, when it IS time for Christ’s return, the wicked are judged first? A little like we’d see in Rev 19? The surviving righteous go on into the “kingdom” of the millennium?
Not trying to put words or thoughts in your mouth, just trying to see this how you would….

 

[Naomi25]

This sowing of the seed is done by Christ Himself. Not from heaven, but literally Christ is on the earth when it happens.

"He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man."

This sowing and harvest is after the Second Coming. The church is already gone before this event, so has nothing to do with the church at all. Why has the church failed to teach this aspect of the Second Coming? Quite simple, as the church does not need to worry about post Second Coming events. The application now is that some will not be part of the church, because of the great falling away. The church itself left many souls behind to be harvested by Christ Himself. Yes, the church should worry about being obedient in their current task, but the church cannot force a false harvest. The problem is that the church itself gets bogged down in earthly affairs, and the Gospel is hid, even in the church.

That Jesus Christ will be on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders seems to be a foreign concept to most church members today. Yet that is exactly what Jesus taught to those in the first century. Christ being present on earth is the main reason preterist are wrong. It simply has not happened yet. But those who use this argument fail to see that the Second Coming does happen before the Trumpets and Thunders. The rapture and the Second Coming is the same event and will not be separate events. The tares are not taken first, at the Second Coming, because that harvest only applies to the seed sown after Christ is already on the earth.

That is why a post Second Coming will not work either. Christ will be on earth during these events, because Christ taught that. Stating we know when Christ is physically on the earth goes against the truth that we cannot know. However that Christ is on the earth is not part of not knowing. The hour Christ comes is the part of not knowing. All will know when Christ comes, and it will be a physical Coming, and it will last more than a few days. It will be long enough for Christ to plant the seeds of His own harvest, and also reap that harvest. It is at the end of the world, and it involves angels. Both key points indicating a future event. This harvest cannot happen until Christ and the angels are on the earth, and the whole world will know, because Christ is sowing the seed throughout the whole world.

I’m sorry, but that makes little sense. Christ’s coming IS the end of the age. How is the harvest to be sown AND harvested AT the same time?

 

[Naomi25]

I'm not trying to belittle or be mean. I'm trying to get my brethren in Christ into disciplined Bible study for theirselves instead of adopting the plethora of men's leaven doctrines that's out there today.

Maybe its just natural talent then. Probably beneficial to have when trying to get your brethren into disciplined bible study…I’m sure it will make them more inclined to listen to you. Shamed into discipline. When has that not worked?

.
The "culture of those who wrote it"??? You mean you don't believe our Heavenly Father Himself actually wrote it? You do realize what I just said here was explained by Apostle Peter, don't you?

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJV

Our Heavenly Father is Who wrote His Word by The Holy Spirit. So studying whatever psychological influences and culture the writers experienced is just a trap door the deceivers have developed to actually get you away... from understanding what God has said through His servants the writers.

Oh golly.
Are you one of those folks who think God used ghost writing to get his word down? The apostles just went into a fugue state and when they snapped out of it and looked down they were like, “golly, look what I’ve just done?”
What makes you think the Holy Spirit works like that? Does he now? Has he at any point in history? Or does he lead, inspire, whisper, impress? He can certainly act in a way powerful enough to get what he wants across, have no doubt…and I have no doubt that what God wanted in his word is exactly as he wanted it. But to suggest he didn’t….as he does now…as he has ALWAYS done…USED his people, as they are…to do exactly as he wanted…is a mistake.

 

[Naomi25]

No one should take a single passage in isolation (as you are trying to do) to build a doctrine. Furthermore, a parable should not become the basis for Bible doctrine. So what the Lord was teaching was AT THE END OF THE AGE the unsaved (indeed the children of the devil meaning the wicked) will be gathered before the Great White Throne (not mentioned but implied) and then cast into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20 gives us the full picture.

As to "the dead in Christ will rise first", that is simply the sequence of events. For all practically purposes, the Resurrection/Rapture is ONE SINGLE EVENT if you put the various passages together.

I think you’re making assumptions. The first assumption is that I’m taking the passage in isolation. I’m not, I’m open to considering the balance of other end times passages in how I view it. The other assumption is that I’m attempting to assert a doctrine. I mean…how clear was I that it was just a stray thought I found interesting and wanted to chat about with others? Doctrine? Please!

You may be very correct in your interpretation on how the timing of it all must go…parables are not meant to be pressed especially hard beyond their main point. If something like the pre-trib Rapture is biblical, it is somewhat nuanced…which might be beyond a parable. However, it does seem that the ‘main point’ of the parable is letting peoples of the world (both saved and unsaved) dwell and grow together in the world until that end point…the end of the age, when Christ returns, and judgment happens. Which means, to my mind, you could see either…argue either, from it.
I don’t know that I’m particularly inclined to do either, at this point, I’m more interested in discussing possibilities and what the text could be saying. I’m trying to do away with biases and pre-held suppositions so more open and interesting conversations might be had.

 

[Timtofly]

I’m sorry, but that makes little sense. Christ’s coming IS the end of the age. How is the harvest to be sown AND harvested AT the same time?

We sow the seed by communicating with others.

Some only see our life and not our words. So even our testimony is sowing the seed.

Christ sowed the seed in the first century the same way we do. Christ reaped some fruit the same way we do. Why is that command, given by Christ Himself, difficult to comprehend about Christ, Himself?

Christ said when He returned it would be a physical return. Christ is going to sow and reap the second time around just like He did the first time. Instead of being just an obedient Messiah, this time He will be Prince. All of heavens host of angels will be walking around on earth with Him.

Not that He will come to intimidate all into submission. Satan will also be physically present and at war at the same time. The 5th Trumpet allows Satan to open the pit, and all of his fallen angels will also be loosed on earth. No more an unseen spiritual war, but directly physical over the souls of lost humanity.

One cannot just assume this is a 2 hour movie, and all will go home peacefully at the Second Coming. This is a months long event, and if Satan gets his way will extend 3.5 years (42 months) even longer than necessary. This is not a remote control confrontation from heaven. This is a hands on event with Jesus Christ the Prince come to bring an end to Daniel's 70th week.

God did not remote control the events in the first century. God literally came to earth in human flesh and died on the Cross. Why would the Second Coming be different than the first?

Jesus Christ does not have to be born again and die again. As Prince, He will just continue what was started at His first time on earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

All Christians throughout our time are experiencing the final resurrection at the moment we experience the end of the age, because in the ‘no time’ realm, its one and the same?
Again, interesting to think about, but no real way to biblically prove it. But, like I said before, I am not comfortable with a lot of the ‘half’ answers I get from the current ‘accepted’ systems.

There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second) death resurrection has no power.

1.) (First) Resurrection To Life
2.) (Second) Resurrection To Damnation, The Second Death

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Truth7t7]

The rapture is not part of HIs return as He only descends to at closest, the atmosphere.

The two Matthew Passages as wqell as the Matthew 25 seperating of teh sheep and goats, refcer to entrance in to the millenial kingdom on earth.

The unrighteous will go to teh placeof torments awaiting the lake of fire 1,000+ years later and the rightoues gathered on the earth will be welcomed in to teh millenial kingdom.

The end of the age and th estart of etnity is not pictureds in any of these parables.

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Truth7t7]

The two Matthew Passages as wqell as the Matthew 25 seperating of teh sheep and goats, refcer to entrance in to the millenial kingdom on earth.

The unrighteous will go to teh placeof torments awaiting the lake of fire 1,000+ years later and the rightoues gathered on the earth will be welcomed in to teh millenial kingdom.

The end of the age and th estart of etnity is not pictureds in any of these parables.

Many Claim Matthew 25:31-46 Is A Preliminary Judgement To Enter A Millennium On This Earth?

(Fact) This is nothing more than a "Parable" using sheep/goats speaking to herdsmen, of the "Final Judgement", also seen in Revelation 20:11-15 and throughout scripture, "Don't Be Deceived"

(Verse 31) The Second Coming

(Verse 34) The "Eternal Kingdom" Is Presented

(Verse 41) The Judgement Of The Wicked To The Lake Of Fire

(Verse 46) "The Conclusion", The Righteous Enter (Eternal Life) In The "Eternal Kingdom" Presented, The Wicked Enter (Eternal Punishment) In The Lake Of Fire

Matthew 25:31-46KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Timtofly]

Many Claim Matthew 25:31-46 Is A Preliminary Judgement To Enter A Millennium On This Earth?

(Fact) This is nothing more than a "Parable" using sheep/goats speaking to herdsmen, of the "Final Judgement", also seen in Revelation 20:11-15 and throughout scripture, "Don't Be Deceived"

(Verse 31) The Second Coming

(Verse 34) The "Eternal Kingdom" Is Presented

(Verse 41) The Judgement Of The Wicked To The Lake Of Fire

(Verse 46) "The Conclusion", The Righteous Enter (Eternal Life) In The "Eternal Kingdom" Presented, The Wicked Enter (Eternal Punishment) In The Lake Of Fire

Matthew 25:31-46KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Is this coming to earth, or does Christ remain in heaven?