THE NEW JERUSALEM PART II

[Eternally Grateful]

I can see by your response that you might believe a person can loose their salvation. I can respect that position but I’m in the once saved always saved camp so I don’t see it that way.

I didn’t intend to get too deep into this topic but here’s how I ultimately see things. In Galatians 2:9 an agreement was made that James, Peter, and John were to go to the circumcision and Paul and Barabas to the Gentiles. I believe that agreement was never rescinded, meaning the books James, Peter, and John wrote were intended for the Jews not a Gentile audience.

That being said, I see New Jerusalem as the new covenant coming down from heaven when the old covenant vanishes. Hebrews 8:13 lets us know that the old covenant didn’t vanish when the new covenant came into force after the cross, even though it would be considered obsolete at that time.

So from the Jewish perspective the New Jerusalem/new covenant was still in heaven while the old Jerusalem/old covenant was still being observed. New Jerusalem comes down after the 70AD destruction of old Jerusalem.

From a Gentile perspective the new covenant is the only covenant and they enter into immediately thus they are perceived as already being the body of Christ.

In Acts 15:28-29 a different burden was placed on the Gentiles than the Jews and this seemed good to the Holy Spirit. The Jews were still under the old obsolete covenant at that time. Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightaway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Ok, I don’t think you’re going to agree with much of what I said above but I would like to ask you something. If a person can loose their salvation then I would think there should be a verse or two that shows people leaving or exiting New Jerusalem. Do you know of any verses that might point to this?

I do not think salvation can be lost either. But your question is confusing.

if new jersualem comes after the final judgment, then how could anyone exit new jerusalem in context of your question.

me personally, I believe the people of the world will come to this new jerusalem, and depart it to return to their homes on the new earth. But thats beside the point

 

[grafted branch]

I do not think salvation can be lost either. But your question is confusing.

if new jersualem comes after the final judgment, then how could anyone exit new jerusalem in context of your question.

me personally, I believe the people of the world will come to this new jerusalem, and depart it to return to their homes on the new earth. But thats beside the point

Thanks for pointing that out, i edited my post. I thought everyone here was in agreement that according to Hebrews 12:22 we believers have already come to the heavenly Jerusalem. I probably should’ve made that distinction and said …

Do you see any verses that would indicate a person can currently leave the heavenly Jerusalem (not a future New Jerusalem)?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thanks for pointing that out, i edited my post. I thought everyone here was in agreement that according to Hebrews 12:22 we believers have already come to the heavenly Jerusalem. I probably should’ve made that distinction and said …

Ok well this makes sense then.

But not all believers think this, The heavenly jerusalem of Heb 12

That mount zion is jesus. Moses came to jesus on the mountain, We come to jesus on the cross. In this way, we have come to him

but that is not the new jerusalem of Rev 21. They are 2 different things

Do you see any verses that would indicate a person can currently leave the heavenly Jerusalem (not a future New Jerusalem)?

I do not think people can leave God once he has saved them, they are protected by him, and Jesus himself said no one would be lost.

Again, the heavenly jerusalem is confusing. Not everyone knows what it means, i would try a different question

 

[grafted branch]

Again, the heavenly jerusalem is confusing. Not everyone knows what it means, i would try a different question

Ok, so you’re saying the heavenly Jerusalem is not the New Jerusalem in heaven before it comes down?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ok, so you’re saying the heavenly Jerusalem is not the New Jerusalem in heaven before it comes down?

If your saying I am in the heavenly jerusalem now. Then no it is not the same.

I am on the earth that will be destroyed..

 

[Marty fox]

Check out post 15.
Also the verses in Rev 21:10....
How do you square this?
Doesn't it seem to you that a CITY is being described?

10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
11having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very valuable stone, like a stone of crystal-clear jasper.
12It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on the gates, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
13There were three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

See post #20

Yes it seams it but when you study it you will see that the description is symbolic for the church. See Revelation 3:12

The foundation of the church were the 12 apostles we entered His gates the through Israel their is no temple or sun and moon

Why would it have even have walls and why are they 144 cubits think? 12x12=144

 

[Eternally Grateful]

See post #20

Yes it seams it but when you study it you will see that the description is symbolic for the church. See Revelation 3:12

The foundation of the church were the 12 apostles we entered His gates the through Israel their is no temple or sun and moon

Why would it have even have walls and why are they 144 cubits think? 12x12=144

No it is not symbolic of the church. If anything it is symbolic of israel. 12 tribes.
The foundation is the apostles and prophets.
It is said, the foundation of apostles and prophets With christ as the chief cornerstone.

Ephesians 2:20
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone

it is both old and new. There is one body, jew and gentile.. not 2

 

[ewq1938]

The bible shows that the verse below isn't literal the pillar is symbolic and so is the temple because there is no temple in the new Jerusalem

Except we are talking about NJ described in Rev 21. It is described as literal, with gates people walk through to enter the city. Care to comment on that?

 

[Marty fox]

Except we are talking about NJ described in Rev 21. It is described as literal, with gates people walk through to enter the city. Care to comment on that?

The gates aren't literal gates​

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Psalm 100:4​

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New King James Version​

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4 Enter into His gates with thanksgiving,
And into His courts with praise.
Be thankful to Him, and bless His name.

 

[Marty fox]

No it is not symbolic of the church. If anything it is symbolic of israel. 12 tribes.
The foundation is the apostles and prophets.
It is said, the foundation of apostles and prophets With christ as the chief cornerstone.

Ephesians 2:20
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone

it is both old and new. There is one body, jew and gentile.. not 2

Of course there is only one body I didn't say otherwise that's why the church is the new Jerusalem

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course there is only one body I didn't say otherwise that's why the church is the new Jerusalem

But it’s not

The new Jerusalem drops down from heaven after this earth was a destroyed and renewed

 

[ewq1938]

The gates aren't literal gates​

​

Psalm 100:4​

​

New King James Version​

​

​

4 Enter into His gates with thanksgiving,
And into His courts with praise.
Be thankful to Him, and bless His name.

The gates in Rev 21 are literal gates because people enter the city through those gates.

 

[ewq1938]

Of course there is only one body I didn't say otherwise that's why the church is the new Jerusalem

In Rev 21, the church is on Earth (since the second coming) when NJ descends down from heaven.

 

[Marty fox]

In Rev 21, the church is on Earth (since the second coming) when NJ descends down from heaven.

Is the church on earth whenGod destroys it with fire?

 

[Marty fox]

The gates in Rev 21 are literal gates because people enter the city through those gates.

Then I guess we walk through it literally with thanksgiving in Psalm 100 too

 

[ewq1938]

Then I guess we walk through it literally with thanksgiving in Psalm 100 too

No, because that is not a description of NJ. You are just side stepping to avoid addressing the fact that it says people enter that city, and that is through those gates. There are also angels at each gate. What is described is a literal city saved people will travel to and enter, passing an angel at the gate.

 

[ewq1938]

Is the church on earth whenGod destroys it with fire?

Yes. They will be immortal so no fire will harm them when the NHNE happens.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Is the church on earth whenGod destroys it with fire?

So let me get this straight

You believe God destroying with fire is literal. But new jerusalem is not?

 

[GodsGrace]

So let me get this straight

You believe God destroying with fire is literal. But new jerusalem is not?

EG,
Looks like this thead is over, which if fine by me.
I did learn that the NJ is a literal city and that WE (Christians - or saved persons) will inhabit it.
I don't understand very well what someone brought up about the BRIDE OF CHRIST being different than
those that are saved....the BODY OF CHRIST.

I think it's the same?
Last comment?

(iow....those that are saved throughout time....when the end comes THEY are the Bride).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG,
Looks like this thead is over, which if fine by me.
I did learn that the NJ is a literal city and that WE (Christians - or saved persons) will inhabit it.
I don't understand very well what someone brought up about the BRIDE OF CHRIST being different than
those that are saved....the BODY OF CHRIST.

I think it's the same?
Last comment?

(iow....those that are saved throughout time....when the end comes THEY are the Bride).

Sadly there is a group of people (I used to be one of them) that believe God will hold the church to a greater standard and gives them a greater glory and place in heaven,

I no longer believe this. I find it impossible to believe god is going to hold me higher and give me a greater place then people like king David, Moses, Abraham, or the prophets..