THE NEW JERUSALEM PART II

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GodsGrace

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@Berean

Hi B, this is what you stated in the original thread (that got locked)....

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. ... Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." - Revelation 3:12; 21:2

The New Jerusalem is the Church of the living God, the Bride of Christ.



How about this:
The New Jerusalem will be INHABITED by the Bride of Christ....
which is right now called The Body of Christ....

But, as YOU even state above, the NAME OF THE CITY of My God, the NEW JERUSALEM....

Would you agree that it's a PLACE that will house the Bride of Christ??
 
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Eternally Grateful

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In the previous thread we were discussing what the NEW JERUSALEM is:

WHEN
WHERE
WHAT
To continue what I said in the previous thread.

when, is after the great white throne judgment

When is after this heaven and earth as we know it is destroyed and a new heaven and earth created in its place. (there are many who say God will nto literally destroy them, but God will restore what is here to their origional created state, In my view. either way is a perfectly good esplnation. and not something I would argue for or against)

where is above the new earth.

What is the city of God, the city that will be inhabited by Gods people. a city that will have no temple in it. because God will be its temple.
 

rwb

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In the previous thread we were discussing what the NEW JERUSALEM is:

WHEN
WHERE
WHAT


Some believed that it's a place and some the bride of Christ.

I'd like to continue this discussion....

@Eternally Grateful
@grafted branch
@Keraz
@quietthinker
@Lambano
@Marty fox
@JohnDB


Hope I didn't forget anyone that might be interested.

Have you considered what Hebrews says about when, where and what the heavenly city, new Jerusalem shows us?

The words written to the Hebrew church writes this as a current reality for them through spirit, not flesh. The Hebrew faithful are already spirits of just men made perfect through Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant by His blood, that is a better sacrifice than Abel. They entered into the heavenly Jerusalem spiritually through the Spirit of Christ in them. We are encouraged not to refuse Him that speaks to us through His Gospel (Word of God), because those who do shall not escape who turn away from Him that now speaks from heaven. He does this through His preached Word that is shaking the earth to remove the things shaken, things He made, being removed, while the things that remain (faithful saints) cannot be shaken. Why? Because we've received a kingdom, the Kingdom of God as justified spirits perfected through Christ. Therefore by grace whereby we serve God acceptably with reverence and Godly fear. Not through worship through the flesh, but through spirit and truth.

Hebrews 12:22-29 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

The same holy city new Jerusalem currently the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven that we enter when we are born again through His Spirit, shall be completed as the Gospel is sent unto all the world, and once it is complete the saints, being the holy city new Jerusalem shall come down from heaven to the new earth that shall be when Christ comes again to make us whole again, fit for everlasting life with Christ on the new earth.

Revelation 21:1-3 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
 
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grafted branch

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In the previous thread we were discussing what the NEW JERUSALEM is:

WHEN
WHERE
WHAT


Some believed that it's a place and some the bride of Christ.

I'd like to continue this discussion....

@Eternally Grateful
@grafted branch
@Keraz
@quietthinker
@Lambano
@Marty fox
@JohnDB


Hope I didn't forget anyone that might be interested.
I do think New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ and I get that from Revelation 21:9-10, where the angel tells John “I will show thee the bide, the Lambs wife … and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God”.

When we look at the Old Testament the first marriage was with Israel and happened on Mt. Sinai and that marriage covenant was prophesied to be superseded by a new covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

The old covenant or marriage to Israel was a bilateral marriage, God promised to do certain things and Israel promised to do certain things. They both had obligations they were bound to perform in that marriage contract, it was a binding contract.

The new covenant or marriage to New Jerusalem is a unilateral marriage, God promised to do certain things and that’s it. God has obligations He is bound to perform while the city of New Jerusalem has no obligations.

Our salvation is by grace and not of works, meaning our salvation is unilateral, we enter into that covenant or marriage but we have no obligations. A person can be saved and not perform any work for God.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Now, let’s look at the parable of the wedding banquet in Matthew 22:1-14. Those who were bidden to come to the banquet wouldn’t come, then as many as they could find in the streets were invited to the banquet and it was furnished with guests. Some people will try to make the guests the bride but if we simply acknowledge that believers are not the bride this parable makes much more sense.

Also the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13. In verse 10 the virgins go with the bridegroom to the marriage but they are not called the bride.

Ok, that’s my two cents on this, I don’t expect anyone to completely agree with me on this and if you see something that’s wrong or if I need to consider other verses, let me know, coming to a complete understanding is a never ending process (at least until we die).
 
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GodsGrace

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Can the New Jerusalem be both a future real place and a symbol representing God's holy people?
This is what I believe.
I'm having a little difficulty trying to understand why some others cannot accept this....

I don't even think it's a SYMBOL.
It's God's holy people
AND
The place where these people will live for eternity.
 
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GodsGrace

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@grafted branch

Hi GB,
This is what you had stated in the original thread re the New Jerusalem.
I did check out all your verses. My replies are in green...

I think one of the major differences people have on New Jerusalem is whether it represents the Church or not. I’m in the camp that it doesn’t represent the Church. In Revelation 22:9 John is shown the bride, Lambs wife, which is New Jerusalem. This equates the bride as New Jerusalem, so your questions apply equally to both the bride and New Jerusalem.


We have verses such as Ephesians 5:22-32 which does give the impression that the Church is the bride but if we draw an absolute conclusion from that then it creates issues.

By the church, I think you mean the Body of Christ?


For example, in verse 26 it is Christ that sanctifies and cleanses yet in Revelation 19:7 it is the bride that makes herself ready. In verse 27 Christ presents the wife/bride to Himself yet in 2 Corinthians 11:2 Paul says he has espoused that he may present them as a chaste virgin to Christ. In verse 31 it indicates the marriage is already consummated which would put Revelation 19 taking place before Ephesians was written.

I can't reply to Revelation 19 taking place before Ephesians was written...
How could anything in Revelation take place before a letter was written?

As to the contrasting ideas in Ephesians 5:26 and Rev 19:7
and 2 Cor 11:2 and 2 Cor 11:31....

To me this just shows that synergism is the correct teaching of the NT.
For example....yes, it's Christ that sanctifies....
but we're told to make ourselves ready and to keep ourselves from sin.
This is throughout Paul's writings.
It's synergism....Christ sanctifies those that are keeping themselves ready (like the 10 virgins)...
I know that some hate this concept, but it's what I get from scripture.
...and your very verses prove it once again.


Colossians 2:10 says we are complete in Him, if the marriage was still future and it involved the Church then this statement wouldn’t be true until after the marriage. If we look at verses such as Galatians 4:19 where Paul says he travailed in birth, meaning he was their mother and 1 Corinthians 4:15 where Paul places himself as their father, we can see that Paul uses these types of relationships as examples which were not meant to be taken literally.

Are you saying we, the church, are the bride RIGHT NOW?

Sorry, I'm so ignorant of these facts.
IOW, I believe the MARRIAGE, the WEDDING BANQUET is future.
You don't?


Now look at Luke 20 where Jesus Himself talks about our condition after death.

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Clearly we are not going to be married or given in marriage after we die.

OK

But the idea of the Bride of Christ is not a literal marriage.
It's a marriage in the biblical sense of being tied one to the other...
Jesus with His church...the born again persons that followed Him...

HIS BODY.

(sorry I'm not providing scripture - these are just general learnings I've had and really never studied).


In Isaiah 62:4 the last phrase in that verse is “and thy land shall be married.” Some translations put it this way “and your land will be His bride.”. Now look at Hebrews 11:16 But now they (those who died in faith) desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

You wrote: HE HATH PREPARED FOR THEM A CITY.....

Right
So the New Jerusalem is also a city....

I personally think the promised land is the new heaven new earth, New Jerusalem, New Testament or covenant, bride of Christ. The Church enters into that covenant but they are not the covenant itself.

Hmmm. I don't see the New Jerusalem as being the same as the New Covenant.

The New Covenant became effective at the death of Christ....
The New Jerusalem takes place at the end of the world....

??
 

Ronald Nolette

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@Berean

Hi B, this is what you stated in the original thread (that got locked)....

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. ... Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." - Revelation 3:12; 21:2

The New Jerusalem is the Church of the living God, the Bride of Christ.



How about this:
The New Jerusalem will be INHABITED by the Bride of Christ....
which is right now called The Body of Christ....

But, as YOU even state above, the NAME OF THE CITY of My God, the NEW JERUSALEM....

Would you agree that it's a PLACE that will house the Bride of Christ??
It is a place! Anyone who says it is the church (bride) overlook a very important little word, "as", which tells us John is comparing the beauty of New Jerusalem to a bride ordained for her husband. He was not saying that the new Jerusalem was a bride.
 
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GodsGrace

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I do think New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ and I get that from Revelation 21:9-10, where the angel tells John “I will show thee the bide, the Lambs wife … and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God”.
But it does state in Rev 21:9-10 that the angel will show John THE GREAT CITY....the HOLY JERUSALEM, descending out of heaven...
wouldn't this necessarily have to be at the end of the world?

When we look at the Old Testament the first marriage was with Israel and happened on Mt. Sinai and that marriage covenant was prophesied to be superseded by a new covenant.
You're talking about the Mosaic Covenant.
I never thought of it as the first marriage but only as a covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

I see what you believe.....
But the OT also states that Israel is a son....
It's not a literal son, just as Jeremiah 31 is not a literal husband.

The old covenant or marriage to Israel was a bilateral marriage, God promised to do certain things and Israel promised to do certain things. They both had obligations they were bound to perform in that marriage contract, it was a binding contract.
Agreed.

The new covenant or marriage to New Jerusalem is a unilateral marriage, God promised to do certain things and that’s it. God has obligations He is bound to perform while the city of New Jerusalem has no obligations.
Agreed,,,,but you're talking about the New Covenant.
HOW is the NC related to the New City??
I just don't see how you can align the two.

The NC is right now....after the death of the testor/testator might be more modern language...which would be Jesus.

The New Jerusalem doesn't take place now.
Our salvation is by grace and not of works, meaning our salvation is unilateral, we enter into that covenant or marriage but we have no obligations. A person can be saved and not perform any work for God.
Oh. I don't agree with this at all and THIS I can discuss but I think not here.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1 Cor 3:15 is so misunderstood it should be deserving of its own thread....

Now, let’s look at the parable of the wedding banquet in Matthew 22:1-14. Those who were bidden to come to the banquet wouldn’t come, then as many as they could find in the streets were invited to the banquet and it was furnished with guests. Some people will try to make the guests the bride but if we simply acknowledge that believers are not the bride this parable makes much more sense.
IF believers are not the bride....
then WHO is the bride??

Also the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13. In verse 10 the virgins go with the bridegroom to the marriage but they are not called the bride.
What do you mean?
The virgins that were ready (5) went in to the wedding.
They attended the wedding banquet.
and then the door was shut.

THEY were the bride....
they were saved....
they were the church...
they were the Body of Christ.

Ok, that’s my two cents on this, I don’t expect anyone to completely agree with me on this and if you see something that’s wrong or if I need to consider other verses, let me know, coming to a complete understanding is a never ending process (at least until we die).
Far be it for me to state anything solid about the New Jerusalem....
But, yes, I can't state a lot regarding works and who the Body is made up of as in the parable of the 10 virgins, for instance.
Up to you how far you care to go...
I've gotten many ideas from you regarding the thread topic.
:blush:
 

GodsGrace

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It is a place! Anyone who says it is the church (bride) overlook a very important little word, "as", which tells us John is comparing the beauty of New Jerusalem to a bride ordained for her husband. He was not saying that the new Jerusalem was a bride.
I do believe I agree with you.
It's a place...

The confusion (or whatever it is) comes because the NT also speaks of WHO will inhabit this PLACE.

Coming from knowing very little, I'll have to say this is what makes most sense to me.
(having read all the verses given to me).
 
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Marty fox

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In the previous thread we were discussing what the NEW JERUSALEM is:

WHEN
WHERE
WHAT


Some believed that it's a place and some the bride of Christ.

I'd like to continue this discussion....

@Eternally Grateful
@grafted branch
@Keraz
@quietthinker
@Lambano
@Marty fox
@JohnDB


Hope I didn't forget anyone that might be interested.
Lets put it this way

Revelation 20
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

This is not talking about Jerusalem, I believe that its talking about the church the city God loves being surrounded and outnumbered by the unsaved people of the world.
 

grafted branch

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By the church, I think you mean the Body of Christ?
Yes, I believe the Church is the body of Christ but not the bride of Christ. I don’t think the body of Christ is the bride of Christ.

Are you saying we, the church, are the bride RIGHT NOW?
Sorry, I'm so ignorant of these facts.
IOW, I believe the MARRIAGE, the WEDDING BANQUET is future.
You don't?
No, I was pointing out that Colossians 2:10 says we are complete in Him and this statement would be somewhat problematic if the Church is the bride and the marriage hasn’t happened yet.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

The words “ye are” <2075> is Present Indicative Active when looking at the Greek. This means we are presently complete in Him.

OK
But the idea of the Bride of Christ is not a literal marriage.
It's a marriage in the biblical sense of being tied one to the other...
Jesus with His church...the born again persons that followed Him...

HIS BODY.
Yes, in a marriage the two become one flesh. We are currently the body of Christ which indicates one of two things, either the marriage already happened or the Church is not the bride if the marriage is still future.

You wrote: HE HATH PREPARED FOR THEM A CITY.....
Right
So the New Jerusalem is also a city....
Yes

Hmmm. I don't see the New Jerusalem as being the same as the New Covenant.
The New Covenant became effective at the death of Christ....
The New Jerusalem takes place at the end of the world....

??
Ok, fair enough. I think we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem as stated in Hebrews 12:22. Whether New Jerusalem is a literal destination that is realized at some future time remains to be seen. I know I have currently come to the New Jerusalem but I have not currently come to a literal place as described in Revelation 21.
 

grafted branch

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But it does state in Rev 21:9-10 that the angel will show John THE GREAT CITY....the HOLY JERUSALEM, descending out of heaven...
wouldn't this necessarily have to be at the end of the world?
Well that is debatable, if you’re of the opinion that New Jerusalem is a literal, physical city then obviously it has not arrived on this earth. If you’re of the opinion that New Jerusalem is a spiritual destination then it is possible that it has descended already.

I see what you believe.....
But the OT also states that Israel is a son....
It's not a literal son, just as Jeremiah 31 is not a literal husband.
Well, sure, we aren’t currently the literal body of Christ either but I think these analogies are made to convey spiritual truths.

Agreed,,,,but you're talking about the New Covenant.
HOW is the NC related to the New City??
I just don't see how you can align the two.

The NC is right now....after the death of the testor/testator might be more modern language...which would be Jesus.

The New Jerusalem doesn't take place now.
But we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem just as it says in Hebrews 12:22. So both the new covenant and New Jerusalem are both available. Nobody is currently able to physically go to New Jerusalem and that could be a future reality, I don’t know, but right now New Jerusalem is a spiritual reality for believers.

Oh. I don't agree with this at all and THIS I can discuss but I think not here.
I don’t want to get into that here either. Things like free will vs election, once saved always saved, grace alone, and so on should hold true with a person’s eschatological view. Unfortunately some people will dismiss their views on other theology to support a particular end time view.
For example those who believe in a future Antichrist and free will claim the Antichrist must do certain things but if he had free will the most destructive thing he could do would be to not abide by what the scriptures say he will do, thus proving God lied.

These types of debates are interesting but generally speaking most people on the eschatology board don’t argue against other views on salvation but rather point out any inconsistencies of holding a particular soteriological view against a particular eschatological view.

IF believers are not the bride....
then WHO is the bride??
New Jerusalem is definitely the bride, they are one and the same. I personally don’t think the bride is “who” but “what”. The bride is a city and in Isaiah 62:4 thy land shall be married or as some translations put it your land will be His bride.

I know it might seem strange but that is the way it’s stated so I try to stick with that wording.

What do you mean?
The virgins that were ready (5) went in to the wedding.
They attended the wedding banquet.
and then the door was shut.

THEY were the bride....
they were saved....
they were the church...
they were the Body of Christ.
You are in agreement with many people about this but it doesn’t specifically state who the virgins were, only that they attended the wedding banquet. I personally don’t believe the guests at the wedding banquet are the bride, although they certainly can be the Church.

Notice Luke 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
 

ewq1938

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NJ is a literal city because it is described with walls and gates etc and people come to enter it.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
 
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GodsGrace

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Yes, I believe the Church is the body of Christ but not the bride of Christ. I don’t think the body of Christ is the bride of Christ.


No, I was pointing out that Colossians 2:10 says we are complete in Him and this statement would be somewhat problematic if the Church is the bride and the marriage hasn’t happened yet.
OK
Interesting.
IOW, what you're saying is that we are CURRENTLY in the Body of Christ....
But since that could possibly change, we can't know FOR SURE, if we'll be The Bride of Christ...
If this is what you're saying, then, yes, I agree fully and would have to change my definitions (and thank you for this!).
So, IF we continue in the Body of Christ till our death THEN we will also be the Bride of Christ at the end of time.
Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

The words “ye are” <2075> is Present Indicative Active when looking at the Greek. This means we are presently complete in Him.


Yes, in a marriage the two become one flesh. We are currently the body of Christ which indicates one of two things, either the marriage already happened or the Church is not the bride if the marriage is still future.
Addressed above, waiting on your reply.
Yes


Ok, fair enough. I think we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem as stated in Hebrews 12:22. Whether New Jerusalem is a literal destination that is realized at some future time remains to be seen. I know I have currently come to the New Jerusalem but I have not currently come to a literal place as described in Revelation 21.
OK
I could understand a spiritual Jerusalem RIGHT NOW and then a literal one later on.
No problem with that. Everything to do with God is also spiritual.
 

GodsGrace

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NJ is a literal city because it is described with walls and gates etc and people come to enter it.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Great post!
You certainly make a great point.
Thanks.
 
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GodsGrace

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Lets put it this way

Revelation 20
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

This is not talking about Jerusalem, I believe that its talking about the church the city God loves being surrounded and outnumbered by the unsaved people of the world.
Check out post 15.
Also the verses in Rev 21:10....
How do you square this?
Doesn't it seem to you that a CITY is being described?

10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
11having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very valuable stone, like a stone of crystal-clear jasper.
12It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on the gates, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
13There were three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
 

grafted branch

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OK
Interesting.
IOW, what you're saying is that we are CURRENTLY in the Body of Christ....
But since that could possibly change, we can't know FOR SURE, if we'll be The Bride of Christ...
If this is what you're saying, then, yes, I agree fully and would have to change my definitions (and thank you for this!).
So, IF we continue in the Body of Christ till our death THEN we will also be the Bride of Christ at the end of time.
I can see by your response that you might believe a person can loose their salvation. I can respect that position but I’m in the once saved always saved camp so I don’t see it that way.

I didn’t intend to get too deep into this topic but here’s how I ultimately see things. In Galatians 2:9 an agreement was made that James, Peter, and John were to go to the circumcision and Paul and Barabas to the Gentiles. I believe that agreement was never rescinded, meaning the books James, Peter, and John wrote were intended for the Jews not a Gentile audience.

That being said, I see New Jerusalem as the new covenant coming down from heaven when the old covenant vanishes. Hebrews 8:13 lets us know that the old covenant didn’t vanish when the new covenant came into force after the cross, even though it would be considered obsolete at that time.

So from the Jewish perspective the New Jerusalem/new covenant was still in heaven while the old Jerusalem/old covenant was still being observed. New Jerusalem comes down after the 70AD destruction of old Jerusalem.

From a Gentile perspective the new covenant is the only covenant and they enter into immediately thus they are perceived as already being the body of Christ.

In Acts 15:28-29 a different burden was placed on the Gentiles than the Jews and this seemed good to the Holy Spirit. The Jews were still under the old obsolete covenant at that time. Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightaway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Ok, I don’t think you’re going to agree with much of what I said above but I would like to ask you something. If a person can loose their salvation then I would think there should be a verse or two that shows people leaving or exiting New Jerusalem. Do you know of any verses that might point to this?

Edit: to clarify, Do you see any verses that would indicate a person can currently leave the heavenly Jerusalem (not a future New Jerusalem)?
 
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Marty fox

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NJ is a literal city because it is described with walls and gates etc and people come to enter it.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
The bible shows that the verse below isn't literal the pillar is symbolic and so is the temple because there is no temple in the new Jerusalem

Revelation 3
12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.
 
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