It's literally all through scripture. God saying:"If" you do this "then" I will spare you. That pretty much covers 90% of the Old testament.
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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If I was mercifully giving money to the poor would it be fair to decide some didn't get any, even though I have an endless supply? Would it be fair to give it to one and just walk by the other one?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
It's 100% of the Bible, front to back, cover to cover, old and new.
Trinitarians engage in too much doublespeak for their own good. We are not saved through 'external' works but it is a misnomer to say we do not have to do anything to be saved. The work we have to do is internal. We have to slay the biggest idol in the world, our own ego. We have to stop striving to be God and accept, believe and trust in his plan for us - and do as he Wills. This is the 'If" you do this "then" I will spare you.'
As the great evangelist John Wesley said, 'We are not saved by works but faith, but faith is never alone.'
True Disciples
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
Matthew 7:21 (NLT)
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Oh I agree. The question we must ask ourselves individually are we of that 1% that actually does know what it means.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
In the context of John 1:29 the word koʹsmos refers to the entire world of redeemable mankind who are described as being guilty of “sin,” that is, sin inherited from Adam.
At Joh 3:16, the Greek verb pi·steuʹo meaning trusting, or trust. (John 3:16, 36; is used together with the preposition eis, “into or in.” Regarding this Greek phrase, one scholar noted: “Faith is thought of as an activity, as something men do, literally putting faith into or in someone.” Jesus obviously refers to a life characterized by faith, not just a single act of faith. At Joh 3:36, the similar expression “the one who exercises faith in the Son” is contrasted with “the one who disobeys the Son.” Therefore, in that context, “to exercise faith” includes the idea of demonstrating one’s strong beliefs or faith through obedience.
If we believe that God loved and Christ died for all humanity, the answer is NO
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Genetic fallacy
Gnosticism. It means what it says.
That's all greek to me. I'm just a common man. You know, the kind for whom the Bible was written. But I think you're right, anyway. :)
Why do you ask me? That isn’t my view of the salvation of God.
God does not pick arbitrarily. God does not choose people for condemnation. God choose people among the condemned, for salvation. His choosing isn’t arbitrary, but consistent with His nature.
And that does not glorify the creature in any way shape or form, but glorifies God in many respect.
How about your view? Does it glorify God and not the creature?
Tong
R2090
Why? I'm still not seeing it. How does picking some for no discernible reason and leaving others (which of course is the exact same thing as picking them for damnation) glorify God?
God is love. It's not one of his attributes, it's who he is. And he offers that love to all. Understanding that certainly leads us glorify him.
<<<I take it as God's strengthening the resolve of a person who is already hardened due to his own rebellion.>>>
So, indirectly you are saying that God had done something in the inside of Pharaoh, to make him further hardened, right? In other words, It is God’s doing that Pharaoh was further hardened, right?
<<<I see no problem with God raising Pharaoh up for this purpose, knowing what pharaoh would do.>>>
The question is not whether you have a problem with that or not. Rather, the question is what does “raised you up” mean to you, and what is your take on the statement “For this very purpose I have raised you up“.
Tong
R2091
First, God in His omniscience foreknew exactly how Pharaoh would respond, and He used it to accomplish His purposes.
When Moses initially approached Pharaoh concerning the release of the Israelites (Ex. 5:1), Pharaoh responded, “Who is the LORD that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, nor will I let Israel go” (Ex. 5:2). The passage Paul quotes (in Rom. 9:17) is Exodus 9:16 which, in context, is the plague of the boils, the sixth plague. But Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God made this statement. Just because God raised up Pharaoh does not mean that Pharaoh is not responsible for his actions.
Yes, God sometimes uses the unrighteousness of humans to show His glory. He doesn't cause our evil actions, but he brings good results from them.
It's important to distinguish between God causing evil and God using the evil that's naturally in the rebellious hearts of people.
Please cite particular scriptures that shows that the mercy of God is conditional.
In my view, the mercy of God is not based on some conditions, like saying God will have mercy on you if you do this and do that. God’s mercy, just like God’s love is not given on some condition that man should first do.
The first act of mercy of God towards mankind was with Adam and Eve. When they sinned, God could have struck them dead right there and then. But He did not. That is an act of mercy by God and is not based on some conditions.
Tong
R2092
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.
Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the Lord your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
I could fill pages and pages with scriptures like this.
I don’t know why you’re still not seeing it. Let me guess. Perhaps it’s because you think that my view is that God chooses arbitrarily, when I already told you that that isn’t my view. Now, perhaps you can start considering my view, that God choose people for salvation consistent with His nature.
Tong
R2093
That’s quite deep. As much as that would be a good subject to discuss, it’s not what I was referring to in my question.
What view I was referring to is your view on God’s salvation or how you are saved. Does your view on that glorify God and not the creature?
Tong
R2094
<<<First, God in His omniscience foreknew exactly how Pharaoh would respond, and He used it to accomplish His purposes.>>>
The omniscience and purpose of God regarding Pharaoh are non issues. The issue is that, God had done something in Pharaoh that he is hardened, further hardened if you prefer.
<<<The passage Paul quotes (in Rom. 9:17) is Exodus 9:16 which, in context, is the plague of the boils, the sixth plague.>>>
It seems by that, you are suggesting that the purpose of God in raising up Pharaoh was only with regards to that. Are you? If you are, I would say that such is a mistake. For the purpose of God in raising up Pharaoh is clearly stated as follows “that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” And how did God accomplish that? He said to Moses in Exod. 7:3 “ And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.“
<<<Just because God raised up Pharaoh does not mean that Pharaoh is not responsible for his actions.>>>
Nobody is saying that Pharaoh is not responsible for his actions. That is not the issue.
Now you seem want to walk away from the question again. The question is “what does “raised you up” mean to you? So please address that.
Tong
R2095
I can see now why such is your view of God’s mercy.
But I don’t see the mercy of God that way. For as I said, God’s mercy, just like God’s love is not given on some condition that man should first do. I have shown you that in the example of Adam and Eve where we see the very first act of mercy of God on mankind, which is unconditional.
In fact I think you have shown that too in
one of your post to @CadyandZoe, where you said and I partially quote (relevant part only):
“If I was mercifully giving money to the poor........”
I understand there in your illustration that you have mercy to the poor. Is that conditional or unconditional? I see that as not conditional.
In my take, the passages you quoted, they really were not written to speak of the mercy of God as being conditional, but more to speak of what mercy God is prepared and willing to give to mankind, especially to the people who are called by His name.
May I ask, how do you see God’s love? Is it conditional or not? How do you see God’s faithfulness, is it conditional or not?
Tong
R2096
Nothing.
Mercy is not something one could work for to earn or merit.
Mercy given to one has nothing to do with the others.
@Renniks
Tong
R2097
In one sense, it is unconditional (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16). In another sense, it is not (John 14:21).
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