Our love is conditional, but God’s love is unconditional.
1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Tong
R2098
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Tong
R2098
Jhn 14:21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
That scriptures neither tells us about God’s love being conditional nor unconditional.
Tong
R2099
It says that God will "love" those who love Him and keep His commandments.
Now there is a sense in which we know that God loves all people (cf. John 3:16); but there is another sense of love in which God loves those who love Him and keep His commandments (John 14:21).
We know that God hates all workers of iniquity (Psalms 5:5-6, Psalms 7:11);
So, perhaps in John 14:21 it is speaking of God's emotional love?
Yes it does say God will love those who love him and keep His commandments. However, you seem to forget what the two scriptures I have given you says, 1 John 4:19 and Romans 5:8. So if you are aware of those scriptures, you will not see John 14:21 the way you see it now.
And we are not talking about anything else but about if God’s love is conditional or not.
Tong
R2100
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Right, so logically then, salvation is always God's choice. The will of man never enters into it.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You know the answer. No, it isn't fair. And so Paul asks the rhetorical question, "God is not unjust is he?"
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
As you are a Reformed/Calvinist, hear what John Calvin says on John 3:16,
"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found inthe world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life."
End of..
The analogy fails in that Renniks is not God. Renniks is but a created being having a nature different that of God.
And so, I beg to disagree. In my view, there isn’t the matter of fairness there.
God isn’t unfair in any way shape and form.
Tong
R2102
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
so why does God through Joshua say, "CHOOSE this day whom you will serve" (Joshua 24:15), or through Moses, "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now CHOOSE life, so that you and your children may live" (Deuteronomy 30:19). And Jesus tell the Jews who wanted to murder Him in John 5, "you REFUSE to come to me to have life." (verse 40); and Paul to the Jews, "Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles" (Acts 13:46). Note, that it was the Jews who REJECTED the Gospel for their salvation, because THEY and NOT God, considered themselves not worthy of eternal life! In Revelation 22:17, it says, "And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely." An Invitation to accept eternal life!
THIS is what the Bible teaches. Not what Reformed theology misrepresents what the Bible says!
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Okay. Not being picky, but there is a point here I would like to touch on. I agree that the ego, the flesh/carnal nature, must die. I would suggest however that such an action we ourselves cannot accomplish. This also must be done by faith in Divine power.
Jesus, in His flesh, was crucified by others. He did not kill Himself, but surrendered to the will of the Father. Baptism is the figure or symbol of the death to self. And the washing of others feet the continuing consecration to that surrender. We do not drown ourselves them resurrect ourselves. We surrender to the will of others... We place our lives literally in others hands.
The ongoing death to self... Dying daily as Paul suggested, is no different. We cannot do it. All we can do is surrender to God and slow Him to accomplish His purpose in our lives. To raise us up in the image of Christ.
I will only say that the scriptures you are bringing up refer to God's choice to love people; while my scripture is speaking of the Lord's emotions.
Regarding Joshua 24:15 and Deut. 30:19, those were related not to anything else but to earthly life and dwelling in the land that God had sworn to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Also, it must me realized that God had deals with them as such, having chosen them from among all other peoples of the earth, in line and keeping with His promises to Abraham, and with His purpose in them, of making of them a holy nation and a kingdom of priests.
John 5:40, unlike Joshua 24:15 and Deut. 30:19, pertains to eternal life, and not earthly life.
<<<Note, that it was the Jews who REJECTED the Gospel for their salvation, because THEY and NOT God, considered themselves not worthy of eternal life! >>>
The Jews, in general or as a nation, rejected the gospel in ignorance, not knowing who He is, as Paul did too before His conversion. Their rejection is not because they do not consider themselves not worthy of eternal life, but that their rejection of the gospel rendered themselves not worthy of eternal life.
Regarding Rev. 22:17, that while there is a universal invitation, there is a qualification, that is, those who thirst, those who desires. So we ask, who are they who thirst and desires? In my reading, they are those whom the Father had given to the Son (John 6:37,44).
Tong
R2103
My reference is with scriptures, not reformed theology. It is scriptures that teaches of the good nature of God, that he is just and righteous. He is not unfair. Are you suggesting He is unfair?
Tong
R2104
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
The scriptures I quoted and brought up to tour attention, speaks of God’s unconditional love for mankind (Romans 5:8), and that if there be any man who loves Him, is because God first love him. Both scriptures, together, sets the tone in understanding verses like John 14:21.
So, getting back to the issue, is God’s love conditional or unconditional? A simple choice will be enough.
Tong
R2105
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
here again it is your theology, and not what the Bible says. Have you read what Joshua 24:15 actually says? "And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
SERVE is not just an "earthly" thing as you say, but to do with where one's spiritual heart really is. It is to do with following the Lord with your life, and rendering to Him true Worship. By "serving" other gods or religions, is the same as "serving" the devil, and being one of his. This verse is very clear, that the persons eternal life depends on who they follow.
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